Grimkeep: Season 2

Uilani · June 9

Now that Endzones have been out for a while, we are looking at what tweaks we can make to make them more fun, more challenging, and more even. There are a number of issues that have been brought to us and that we are looking into, and put together they warrant a full reset of scores before they are implemented to keep things fair. Because of that we are seeking to gather additional ideas and thoughts on the issues already brought to us. NOTE: We know a new endzone would also be desirable and exciting, but we are not looking into that yet.

Problem 1 - Teleporting Out
Being able to ascend, teleport, etc. out of an endzone is something that currently works and something we would like to remove because it allows quick jumping in and out of it to restock, or hop in/out of a timequake, when it should be an expedition that you lock into more properly. The gate should be the primary way to leave and needing to get to it, should one be far away, should be part of the challenge. That said, we do think the system would also then need a quick get out button should someone need to leave immediately (as opposed to just logging out there unsafely, which ultimately would later kick them to the Portal). If we added the button, this would need to bar the person from rejoining that run so it actually serves its purpose. Extra concern: dirigibles, pets, and such should probably not deliver into Grimkeep for the same reason (quick restocking) but we're on the fence about that.

Problem 2 - Teleporting In

We have tracked down a few gaps in the system due to placement of the area. It is technically on Prime Plane so as not to remove the players too far away from the rest of the game in terms of communication and information, but that also created its own issues. Those would be going away and we'd rather find and patch them all than move Grimkeep so far away (plane/continent wise) as to make all the options not work due to distance. Teleporting in should not be possible, joining should happen only through Ronai and respect the 5 minute limit for joining runs.

Problem 3 - Gate Camping
Groups are consistently camping out at the gate, the very first room, so as to be able to flee and cure up safely before rejoining. This is a two fold problem.

1) It's boring, encourages semi afkness once a group has a good balance going, and Grimkeep may as well be a 3 room area instead.
2) It lessens the danger and challenge immensely to be able to just hop out at a moment's notice. Unclear what the best solution here could be, fortressing is a thing for a reason.
Some ideas: increase spawns at the gate because it's better defended, forced arrival into a random room (but nearish the exit), random forced movement (of group or singular) as one function of one type of the denizens, some sort of room debuff mechanic created by denizens dying (leftover aoe that increases the more denizens die there), additional requirements for leaving through the gate (full or almost full health, limited exits, cooldown before you can return).

Please leave your comments and additional ideas!

Enyalida · June 9

I have no experience of endzones, so my input is obviously limited. But I happened to do my "once every two months" look at the forums to read the news posts a mere hour after this post, so here's my two cents!

Put the endzones in aetherspace, and not necessarily at the same exact spots each time. This solves both of the teleporting issues immediately. It also wouldn't isolate participants in the same way as putting the endzones on their own planes, as long as someone involved used Covey/Planarbond.

To address the third issue, you could have the docking point be "above" the endzone itself such that participants have to rappel down into the instance. Or simply add a delay on getting back up to the safe room from the drop point so that you can't shuffle back and forth quickly.

People could use various methods to get *out* of the endzone, but would then have to fly or wait through the cooldowns inherent to aetherspace fast travel to get back - adding a significant opportunity cost.

This is almost certainly a big thematic shift, so I get why it's just as certainly not going to be the actual solution, but I think it'd work to solve the issues listed! Plus it'd inject a bunch of non-direct-competitive/PvP interest into aetherspace.

Ayisdra · June 9

I know you said no to new endzone, but I really do believe that any changes should be applied to a new area rather than Grimkeep.

I personally also disagree with the idea the gatecamping is boring, but that could be an unpopular opinion.

That said, the problems are:

1) There is no reason to move because mobs are too strong otherwise. They have too much health/resists that you can't kill them fast enough.
2) The area is big enough to affect mob tracking - the gate is far enough away from the otherside that staying at the gate controls how fast the mobs come to you. At least as far as I have been told. I'm not sure how true this actually is. it sure as feels like mobs will get stuck on the other side and not come to the other side until they are 'within' range.

3) Right now, the Queen boss isn't really worth it to fight because she is even stronger, has instant kills, and you basically have to do it at the very start of the run or the mobs will quickly overwhelm you. You basically can kill her or do a proper run, but not both.

So there are a few ideas:

Adjust mob strength, making them a bit weaker but probably increasing spawn rate. This could encourage people to move around as things spawn. I know this probably will take the most balancing and quick updates to the system (this idea probably isn't something that can wait months between adjustments)

Encourage moving around. Two ways this could be done: 1) every so often check that the group has moved x rooms away and give some sort of essence bonus. 2) Special bonus/Elite mobs that spawn and stay in a specific room. This mob could give a couple million essence or a similar boost. It would need to be high enough of an reward to make people go to it, and likely require the above adjusting idea as well, else people won't do it if they can't kill the thing fast enough.

Xiran · June 9

Disclaimer: I've never done a Grimkeep run either.

I don't want to lose people to another plane/continent for hours if we can avoid that route. If there might be a way to shorten runs by rewarding for something other than time length maybe that'd help too?

I have heard from early runners about trinkets/trophies that can be picked up in runs and then traded in to the guild of Horizon Walkers (to open up access to special items). How are the trinkets/trophies acquired? Could a run stat for acquiring these encourage less gate camping?

What do walls do? If they're helping control the mobs, could walls raised near the gate not count for run points to encourage setting out further? Can any mobs fly or charge over walls?

As a variant to random room start, what if there's a few possible spots the tunnel leads to in a Grimkeep instance? That is, there is only one tunnel per instance, but the room it links to may be different between runs. Jokingly, these different locations might have different challenges to prevent gate camping, so you can do A/B testing.

Qoivhae · June 11

Uilani said:

Now that Endzones have been out for a while, we are looking at what tweaks we can make to make them more fun, more challenging, and more even. There are a number of issues that have been brought to us and that we are looking into, and put together they warrant a full reset of scores before they are implemented to keep things fair. Because of that we are seeking to gather additional ideas and thoughts on the issues already brought to us. NOTE: We know a new endzone would also be desirable and exciting, but we are not looking into that yet.

Problem 1 - Teleporting Out
Being able to ascend, teleport, etc. out of an endzone is something that currently works and something we would like to remove because it allows quick jumping in and out of it to restock, or hop in/out of a timequake, when it should be an expedition that you lock into more properly. The gate should be the primary way to leave and needing to get to it, should one be far away, should be part of the challenge. That said, we do think the system would also then need a quick get out button should someone need to leave immediately (as opposed to just logging out there unsafely, which ultimately would later kick them to the Portal). If we added the button, this would need to bar the person from rejoining that run so it actually serves its purpose. Extra concern: dirigibles, pets, and such should probably not deliver into Grimkeep for the same reason (quick restocking) but we're on the fence about that.

As someone who has few experiences with Grimkeep (disclaimers ha!), I can definitely understand that teleporting out to restock is not how it was designed and that an instant 2-step way bypassing any checks to quit the run is a good idea i.e. QUIT ENDZONE then (Y)ES. I also somehow personally perceive endzones similar to rogue-like RPG mechanic in the sense that it is a dungeon crawl having no external access but with no permanent death. Having said about death and being able to join in, is it intended that after dying, the participant can still join and thus, can potentially restock for their own benefit and/or for the others as well?

Problem 2 - Teleporting In
We have tracked down a few gaps in the system due to placement of the area. It is technically on Prime Plane so as not to remove the players too far away from the rest of the game in terms of communication and information, but that also created its own issues. Those would be going away and we'd rather find and patch them all than move Grimkeep so far away (plane/continent wise) as to make all the options not work due to distance. Teleporting in should not be possible, joining should happen only through Ronai and respect the 5 minute limit for joining runs.

Agree to the part where teleporting in is an issue and that only Ronai should only be the sole access to get in but what;s the issue with allowing communication and information?

Problem 3 - Gate Camping
Groups are consistently camping out at the gate, the very first room, so as to be able to flee and cure up safely before rejoining. This is a two fold problem.
1) It's boring, encourages semi afkness once a group has a good balance going, and Grimkeep may as well be a 3 room area instead.
2) It lessens the danger and challenge immensely to be able to just hop out at a moment's notice. Unclear what the best solution here could be, fortressing is a thing for a reason.
Some ideas: increase spawns at the gate because it's better defended, forced arrival into a random room (but nearish the exit), random forced movement (of group or singular) as one function of one type of the denizens, some sort of room debuff mechanic created by denizens dying (leftover aoe that increases the more denizens die there), additional requirements for leaving through the gate (full or almost full health, limited exits, cooldown before you can return).

Echoing Ayisdra, gatecamping isn't boring and seems to be most strategic route simply because the mobs are just too strong.

So there are a few ideas:

Adjust mob strength, making them a bit weaker but probably increasing spawn rate. This could encourage people to move around as things spawn. I know this probably will take the most balancing and quick updates to the system (this idea probably isn't something that can wait months between adjustments)
Encourage moving around. Two ways this could be done: 1) every so often check that the group has moved x rooms away and give some sort of essence bonus. 2) Special bonus/Elite mobs that spawn and stay in a specific room. This mob could give a couple million essence or a similar boost. It would need to be high enough of an reward to make people go to it, and likely require the above adjusting idea as well, else people won't do it if they can't kill the thing fast enough.

So borrowing elements from dungeon crawls and rogue-like, can we also properly incentivize moving around to properly survive the run? Like on top of what Ayisdra said as italicised, what if the party can secure short-lived buffs by scouring the area? This might address the issue of gatecamping being the most strategic option to sustain the run.

Sapphira · June 11

Even if the fortress wasn't at the gate (ie quick step out ability was removed), there would just be another fortress somewhere else, where there are limited exits to help control the flow of mobs and blocking. I do agree it's a shame that the rest of the area seems wasted, but strategically, you want to stay as a group, and as mobs track to you, it's smarted to stay put and kill them off as they come.

I don't know that I like the idea, but a requirement to hunt down mobs vs tracking would force people to move. And perhaps even actually pay attention - like a message comes through, telling us to hunt down the mobs for x minutes, if there's no kills (because no one moves to get them) the run would end.

I'm torn about the easy ability to step out and return. I get wanting to make it so you can't just quickly cure/stock up or even enter a timequake...but also that ability actually allows people in a run to still choose to engage in what's going on (like a timequake) without ending the run and wasting buffs/having to start time over. If it weren't possible, you're more likely to see people refuse to end the run and just not engage in what's going on, because the best bang for your buck is to have your run go as long as possible. I'm fine with re-entering via the gate, that makes sense anyway.

Ferelith · June 12

Here's a link to the start of the Grimkeep Conversation held in the discord: https://discord.com/channels/762319346802098236/762319347338575875/1249503762976866396

Summary of Ideas: (If something's wrong, please quote/highlight)

Minotaur like entity that chases the group around.

Weather elements don't matter 90% of the time.

Weather elements that do matter end runs because they are that bad - Acid rain as example.

Comparison to Achaea - Everyone groups and one person breaks mob groups and drags them to the main party. Mobs are fixed number and have a boss/puzzle element as well.

The Boss isn't worth killing because of her location/difficulty. (1k rep, no honors line, etc)

Objectives for future endzones - worry regarding how many would do them and it ending up being a single player with the group teleporting in after.

Spawn lulls on a timer to give people the opportunity to explore/do objectives. Special mobs during lulls to boost group/party in some way.

Instead of boosting group it adds to the overall prize (Adding time on the clock)

A pool of mobs that's larger than the current amount and is random each time - so runs are not always the same five mobs.

It is always safer to be grouped up in a place to control exits - unless moving around offers a way to kill faster to keep mob counts low, it won't be worth doing.

Mobs get stuck/their tracking doesn't kick in if they spawn on the other side of the instance and it causes large swarms of mobs to overwhelm the group.

What are the requirements to do an Endzone? Does every player need to min/max and be aware of each mob limitations, abilities, etc. What gear is reasonable expected for a group to succeed?

Endzone that isn't just about surviving an assault wave. Have waves interrupted with tasks that require moving through the area. Even something simple like pulling a lever, pushing a button, solving a puzzle, or gather clues to answer a riddle. New waves release on solving the task.

Have mobs wander and not group together to allow feasible smaller groups to kill them and allow travel through the area.

Alternate trash and boss mobs - where boss mobs have mechanics to them similar to Aetolia's elites(as a reference).

Here are some of my ideas:

Problem 1/2: Teleporting in/out
Block teleporting entirely. Have the gatekeeper offer an insurance or escape anyone can use to be kicked out of the group in an emergency - TELL gatekeeper ESCAPE. I suggest having them be removed from the run but given a reward based on their personal time.

Problem 3: Gate Camping
Remove the gate entirely - only way out is death or the ESCAPE. Entering again is allowed and giving the password to the gatekeeper should drop players next to the closest player already inside.

Offer a reason to explore the area that is worth leaving a defendable space. Spawn in treasure chests, unique mobs, or other rewards in rooms that benefit the party. For example, have certain rooms have a shrine that offers a buff to the whole room (+resistance, health, regen, etc). Something worthwhile so a 2/14 or more. Have it tick on and off on a timer so groups will not benefit from it the entire time and have to find others. Unique mobs would reward items, large amounts of gold, and/or +bonus to time on the clock.

Another example of an objective option is to allow 'locking down' rooms to prevent mobs from spawning in them for a time - creating a lull in the total number. Mobs would still be able to path into the room.

Could also have rooms 'break down' on a timer or counter based on how many mobs are slain in a room, forcing a party deeper into the area until they're up to the boss. As each room is 'destroyed' it lowers the total number of mobs possible. When all rooms but the boss's are 'Destroyed' the timer stops (even if mobs are still alive and need to be dispatched). Killing the boss adds a set bonus to the time of a run. This allows a party to recover before challenging the boss or deciding to escape. Have unique mobs weaken the final boss be optional - so a party could rush the final boss to kill them to increase the bonus or methodically work through the sub-bosses.

Another idea is to prevent mobs from rushing to the party - a group has to go find mobs throughout the area. For this to be worthwhile, some mobs would have to path and others would need to stay still. This would allow larger groups to be split to be easier to handle. I'm not sure if it's possible but limit how many mobs can stay in a single location so the splitting would be needed.

Xiran · June 14

Qoivhae said:

what;s the issue with allowing communication and information?

There isn't an issue. Uilani said Grimkeep is on the Prime Plane to allow for such and to not remove players too far from the rest of the game.

Out of curiosity, how much curative does a run eat up?

Jaye · June 21

Hi there!

I am a new player and I've done loads of Grimkeeps thus far as a new Demigod, and personally I love this whole concept. I think this is an awesome system and I'd like to make a few comments based on what I've seen here!

I can understand being able to leave / re-enter being a problem. How would these potential changes relate to someone dying? I have never had the urge to leave, it's always been "Let's see how long I can last even though I forgot X". I'll die, take the penalty, and then walk back in and pick up where I left off. I hope that this feature doesn't get removed because dying and being out would really suck for newer players who don't have all the survivability bonuses and artifacts that some other people have. I don't think it should be as easy as teleporting, you should have to go through the gatekeeper in every circumstance, but I think it would really suck that if you were to die then you would just be out.

I also understand the criticism about it being boring / semi-afk. I think the solution to this isn't perhaps to remove the existing version that's highly accessible to all types of people, but instead to consider adding a more difficult / more rewarding option. I don't know what this would look like, of course, but I think there should be something for everyone. I strongly believe there's some value in keeping it in the form it is now in some capacity, especially for encouraging all players to be welcome to an awesome group PVE content with the 'come as you are' mentality.

Lastly, as someone who works a lot of hours IRL and has consistently missed Grimkeep runs by 5-30 minutes, it really sucks to have all your friends/companions/citymates be locked into an event for 2 hours that you have no access to. Would you perhaps consider an option for someone to join an event like this, but with some sort of penalty? Say you join in 30 minutes and the run is an hour long, you get a 50% rewards penalty, but this would still allow participation.

Valrion · June 22

I am also a newer player, and I'm all for incentivizing and encouraging more active play rather than punishing passive strategies.

As Ferelith, Jaye, and others have mentioned, one great way to encourage active play would be to offer objectives deeper inside the area to provide a reward if your group is strong enough to take advantage of them. These could be treasures, special mobs, or perhaps capturable nodes in a number of rooms. This would allow people to continue setting up in one room if they want to, but also give them more to do if they are able to.

I also think grimkeep would be more accessible if we were allowed to join at any time instead of being limited to just the first 5 minutes. It really does suck to just barely miss out when the event can go on for so long, especially as my experience has been that most people are done after one run. Since the reward is time based, someone who joins late would be penalized in the same way as someone who left early currently is.

Everiine · June 26

Xiran said:

I don't want to lose people to another plane/continent for hours if we can avoid that route. If there might be a way to shorten runs by rewarding for something other than time length maybe that'd help too?

This is the frustrating thing for me. I struggle to catch anyone for other things because whenever I log in, everyone is either sitting in a Timequake, or a domoth, or in Grimkeep. It's frustrating that we seem to be continuing the move away from engaging with the world and toward sequestering everyone away. Even when numbers are logged in, it still feels (the times I'm able to be logged in) that the world is depressingly empty.

Uzriel · July 1

A few things I wanted to address.

1. I think one important item to be careful of is over engineering things to make Grimkeep a worse experience. It would be nice to keep the old Grimkeep as classic so the option is there for it if the changes don’t stick. Even rewards could be tuned so that it’s not as enticing as season 2, but I worry about changes leaving it in a state that it’s not really fun/viable.

2. Regarding teleporting out and leaving/reentering. I think the most elegant solution to this is a timer between leaving and coming out. That way somebody can leave in a hurry. But there is a cost in that they can’t just renter right away.

3. Camping at the entrance as the most viable strategy. This is a tough one to address but I think potentially objectives could help with this (problem is this is also something that could be a bigger pain point than fun addition). Another possibility is for certain rooms to have buffs or debuffs creating a strategy of wanting to find the optimal spot for a particular run.

4. Making teleporting in and changing the optimal position from being the entrance creates the possibility of it being too difficult to return to a run and rejoin the group. There would need to be some mechanism to return to the group. Be it a staging room that won’t have aggro mobs or otherwise.

5. The complaint about grimkeep keeping other players from getting interactions is a tricky one. The players aren’t on prime. And often people will leave to do another activity that appeals to them more. I think it’s wrong to assume if they weren’t in grimkeep they would be there for you to interact with. It’s entirely plausible that if they weren’t in grimkeep they simply wouldn’t be playing at all. Taking away options for people to do to somehow encourage activity is counterproductive to population issues.

Freja · July 1

Teleporting - make all the rooms monolithed like special quest rooms. Ronai gives us a password to enter, we can just be more vigilant about using it and returning that way when you die. My only issue is, not being able to easily leave. There were several times in the past a few of us would hit up the timequake that popped during our run, finish up the timequake and return. Personally, if that’s going to be something I can’t do easily, I’ll stay in grimkeep. Anomalies aren’t that important to me. Some like to use shrine powers too, you have to run out every time to activate that.

Gate camping - I don’t have an issue with this either. Because if you die, you’re going to have to run through all the mobs in order to get back to the group. If you take out teleporting, that’s going to make it almost impossible when the run hits over a certain time. I understand grimkeep is meant to get harder, but I don’t think it should wipe out an entire group within the first hour or hour and a half. We’ve had a few runs where we weren’t camped out at the gate. We did okay for the most part, but we had a decent size group.

My concern is we just made it for grimkeep to be worth it experience wise. And hopefully we can make aetherhunting great again as well. However, aetherhunting will have the same issue as Grimkeep. Everyone is going to do what they want to do and enjoy. I don’t want this aspect of the game to end or be knocked down so many pegs it’s not even worth getting a group together.

I agree the mobs hurt quite a bit. As for the queen. I have no idea how hard/easy she is. I forget she exists half the time. That’s how much I interact with her.

I always thought (I could be wrong) that the Trench was to be another “endzone”. The trench got two quests, what if Grimkeep had that option as well? And the group can get a honor line? Or some kind of bonus that we can work towards. The reputation was a goal to get for a while, that’s always something to expand on too.

I know a concern is taking people away and not having people interactions. Interacting with my core group isn’t a feat. If I want to set up an RP moment or event and I know scheduling will be hard, I’m not ashamed to ask them when it’s a good time to set this up. I do this all the time for the glowing present parties, I know it’s not RP based but it’s still a time for friends and fun. The game is aging as are the players. Quite a few of us are adults and have other responsibilities, I see nothing wrong with setting up RP dates and times.

Omegughk · October 3

I’d like to propose an adjustment to Grimkeep to make it more accessible for newer demigods, particularly when it comes to acquiring essential items needed to progress Grimkeeps, such as the Wonderbra (illself) and 16/16 damage or resistances. The current issue is that players often need these items to effectively participate in Grimkeep, yet they can only be efficiently obtained by doing Grimkeep itself, creating a bit of a catch-22.

My suggestion is to introduce a half-tick for essence. At the 15-minute mark, players could receive 1/3 of the essence they’d normally earn at the 30-minute mark. This would give a group of 3-4 newer demigods the chance to grind for essence, even with basic buffs like gnomeweapons (10/10 damage buffs) and the usual Grimkeep items (goop scarves, candies, etc.), allowing them to at least make it to the first experience tick. The tick would only be needed on the first 15 minute mark.

We ran Grimkeep twice with a group of 3 and 4 and made it just passed the 15 minute mark.

Not sure how hard it would be to modify this coding wise.

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Grimkeep: Season 2

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