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Commune Defenses

EstarraEstarra
in Common Grounds
From my announce:

One of our envoy reports recommended to remove tree chopping conflicts and power generation of commune trees. I was loathe to remove yet another conflict system but I totally understand how morale busting it can be to have enemies chopping your trees and running away and I understand how it didn't seem fair that communes had an advantage with power that cities may not. In other words, I get why players want this but, again, I would prefer not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also, communes would basically get free wood without any risk or cost whatsoever.

Therefore, I'd like to try an experiment. To keep, everything operating as-is but to give commune druids an additional discretionary power.

NEXUS IRONBARK - available to commune druids security. For 250 power, will prevent trees from being chopped in any manner EXCEPT that a druid of the same commune as the tree may mulch it. This power can be stackable up to 24 hours.

Therefore, druids can basically protect trees 24/7 IF they want to spend the power to do so. In other words, yes, communes can still get power from trees but they also need to spend power to protect it. Commune druids will need to weigh when to protect trees (or constantly protect trees) depending on how much they want trees to generate power.

Also, not having anything to do with trees, we've added another discretionary power to help deal with forest fires.

 

NEXUS STORM - available to any security member of the commune. This will change the weather patterns throughout the entire commune, causing rainstorms strong enough to put out forest fires. (We've also adjusted weather code slightly so stronger rainstorms have a better chance of putting out fires--and the summoned rainstorm is very strong.) Weather will eventually revert back to its seasonable norm, though in the meantime shamans will get the benefit of potentially manipulating the stormy weather.

Again, all of this is experimental and if it doesn't work, we may reconsider the envoy report. However, until then, I hope you will give this new system a try!

(We've also discussed potential other discretionary powers to help defend home orgs but for now we are seeing how this goes.)


Let me know what you think! We can tweak the above if necessary so give suggestions. Also, feel free to brainstorm any other discretionary power ideas.

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Comments

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Free wood? Eh?
  • MalaynMalayn
    edited September 2015
    I do not believe this fixes any of the issues really:

    - This guts the ability for conflict that hardly exists as is. Since at any one time there won't be many up, and it is usually cheaper to let them die. I would need to math this out to be specific (measure power for totem vs power gained if the totem were dead over the same period but being regrown).

    - Is this power free when a construct is up?  Unfair in large part to cities, communes get distort liveforest for free on prime (cities get elemental and cosmic), which makes it far riskier to do anything on prime as is. If these powers are free under a construct then it is basically a game over scenario anyway.

    - This still leaves the very high free power generation (most trees are only choppable briefly, once in awhile).  I have seen numbers as high as 10K power a month for this (We did not locate WHY it was 10K from trees, when the other commune did not have these numbers).  There is no real disparity in ability to get essence, so the reason for trees giving power is no longer a thing. 

    It does not feel to me as if any of the problems were actually solved, all we did was add a literal bandage power that may or may not be cost efficient if the goal is only power generation and not RP.

    I liked the idea of no power and can't break trees. There is no city analog for either of these things, so it would go down to killing mobs on prime and such instead. Forests already have the advantage of discretionaries as noted above, so they have a huge edge in regards to prime. I actually would rather see "free powers" on prime removed if you want to see any conflict there. The only way the person should escape is if there is no security around at all, so raid when no one is there under current system.

    EDIT: Added solutions
  • ArcanisArcanis
    Rofl


    Raves for getting your cake and eating it too.


    I dont get it...is there some secret channel where you can whine and get things done? We're missing out on this magical mechanic in Mag...need secret chan plz.

    - Would like Marani to be able to be fed to Necromentate even when alive
    - Would like Sea of Despair to not have waves please (tainted water)
    - Would like Nihilists to not be broken
    - Would like Sea battle to not be the last epic for Mag and prefer something more thematic to Mag itself (we dont -care- about Ladantine. Honest).

    Please and thank you
  • EstarraEstarra
    Well, I really shouldn't have said "free" power. The idea was always that the plane that communes really protected was the prime plane, specifically the forests whereas cities had 2 other planes (an elemental and cosmic) where they could generate power. To get the so-called passive power from the forests, the players there would still need to do some work.

    I really don't believe communes generate 10k power from trees. I think that is either a gross exaggeration or you are misinformed. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong though I did look at some logs.

    Anyway, we'll see how it works, though I hope you will give it some time rather than taking a let's spite Estarra approach!
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    I think it's a reasonable compromise to test out. My only concern is that it's still not equitable to cities, 250 power an hour is super expensive and should outpace totem power production substantially. 

    I would say make it cheaper, like the other discretionary powers, but lasts a long period of time (12 hours?) but during that time, trees don't produce power. So there's still a cost but it's not enormous and doesn't require druids to predict when trees will get chopped. 
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  • EstarraEstarra
    Celina said:
    I think it's a reasonable compromise to test out. My only concern is that it's still not equitable to cities, 250 power an hour is super expensive and should outpace totem power production substantially. 

    I would say make it cheaper, like the other discretionary powers, but lasts a long period of time (12 hours?) but during that time, trees don't produce power. So there's still a cost but it's not enormous and doesn't require druids to predict when trees will get chopped. 
    Sure, we can tweak the costs, though 250 power for 12 hours seems extremely cheap (esp. if Malarious is right and communes generate 10k power a day from trees!).
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited September 2015
    Yeah, it's called envoy reports. Check out REPORT 1374.

    In spirit and effect, this is not what was asked for. 

    @Malarious, your numbers are very wrong. If this defense lasts only an hour, keeping it up 24 hours will cost 6000 power a month, which is approximately twice the number usually generated (~3000 per month). This means that your first point is correct: it makes far more sense to allow a few totems to be chopped down, as the power lost over the course of the three to four days those few totems are down will be less than the 250 power cost to protect "all" of the trees for one hour. Why is "All" in scare quotes? Because in any given hour, there is only likely to be one or two trees at risk anyways!


    Notably, in any hour where there is a druid around to activate this power, there is a druid around... who can just carve the totems. The real need is for something that protects over night/during non-peak times (early morning). This means that this power will at minimum cost 500 power (once to activate for this hour, once to activate for the next hour) to provide any real benefit. Not worth it. 

    This is a different kind of 'not worth it' than flat making trees unchoppable but generate zero power, even if the power cost was adjusted to make it equivalent. It relies on predicting when enemies will want to chop trees and being able to activate this power ahead of time. If we could do that, this wouldn't be a problem in the first place! What this does is make druids feel guilty for using it (250 power burned for what?) and guilty for having not used it the time someone DOES come in to chop. Yikes. 


    EDIT: Okay, it lasts 12 hours, that wasn't mentioned in the announce. That's way more palatable. It's still kind of silly, it's going to be up 100% of the time if it's cost effective, 0% of the time if it's not.

    EDIT2: Wow, there were a lot of posts between when I started mine and posted it. Yeah, if it's per hour, see above. Otherwise, see lower below above.
  • EstarraEstarra

    Enyalida said:
    EDIT: Okay, it lasts 12 hours, that wasn't mentioned in the announce. That's way more palatable. It's still kind of silly, it's going to be up 100% of the time if it's cost effective, 0% of the time if it's not.
    Sorry, it lasts 1 hour but is stackable up to 24 hours. Celina and I were just talking about possible tweaking of numbers, i.e., it could last for longer chunks of time or be cheaper or even be stackable for longer.
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  • MalaynMalayn
    I have no spite of the Estarra. Even if I do not agree with a decision, I will never disagree with something on principle of the person.  

    I hope you are not talking to me, because I had the same sort of replies when people asked me about it or it was brought up on clan. The goal for communes was removal of having grief chopping (even though they had distort they would still lose the tree). The city goers didn't like their free power and had little way to really fight back as ethereal forests can be incredibly hard to raid due to strength and clumping of the mobs there, while at the same time the plane itself generates no real power (essence things from fae is all). Killing ladies/daughters costs no power, but cities can lose power from cosmic mobs dying.  So there is no analog there either.

    Neither goal was directly given, though nexus power helps with 1 hour reprieves, and honestly if I want to raid the forest, I would be better off getting them to ironbark every hour than chopping the actual trees. I will do some math when I find people, but for example here is what I was looking at:

    If you get 10 power from a totem, and it is 12 months per stage, and you get 5 saplings for 2p each you have a year of the same exact value as the totem. Those sort of things if you follow catch what I mean. Sorry, I do not know the time for maturity, age of each tree in room at different points, etc. 

    10K power was a number shown according to a "powerlog summary" Avurekhos posted for me on pastebin when I was comparing the two orgs power a number of months ago. Glomdoring had 3000ish power and for some reason Seren's showed 10K.  I believe he bugged it if that is still there so if you look at old reports you may be able to find it if that is not the case any further.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited September 2015
    250 power for 1 hour makes this defense close to useless. 

    As I remember it, each totem generates approximatly 10 power per day. Being chopped down takes a totem out for about three - four days (depending on exactly when the chopping happens). At each stage, the trees still generate power, something like a collective 2 on the first stage, 4 on the second, 6 at enormous. This means that at worst you lose 10 power on the first day, 8 on the second, 6 on the third, and 4 on the last. That's a total of 28 power, meaning that you'd need to lose TEN TREES per use of the discretionary for it to break even. Keep in mind what I said above about needing to use it twice in a row to get any benefit - you're actually using 500 power practically to protect it for the hour after you log off. That means that during that one hour you'd need to lose TWENTY TREES to break even. 

    Even that is leaving aside yet another thing: a saavy enemy can come in and scout for elder trees while the power is up and return after it turns off to chop down all of those trees. So, unless you use it enough to wait those people out during off-peak times, you use up the power on the discretionary... and still get the trees chopped down. 

    EDIT: If the end result is needing to negate all of the power generation to add any meaningful protection, there isn't any reason to not just do what we actually asked for in the report. 
  • EstarraEstarra
    Again, the ironbark defense is STACKABLE up to 24 hours. I'm fine with adjusting numbers if anyone cares to offer suggestions!
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Estarra said:
    Celina said:
    I think it's a reasonable compromise to test out. My only concern is that it's still not equitable to cities, 250 power an hour is super expensive and should outpace totem power production substantially. 

    I would say make it cheaper, like the other discretionary powers, but lasts a long period of time (12 hours?) but during that time, trees don't produce power. So there's still a cost but it's not enormous and doesn't require druids to predict when trees will get chopped. 
    Sure, we can tweak the costs, though 250 power for 12 hours seems extremely cheap (esp. if Malarious is right and communes generate 10k power a day from trees!).
    It is cheap, but it would be offset by the fact that communes wouldn't generate totem power during that time. Ultimately I thought it should be cheap because it's still a net loss for the Communes in the long run no matter how you slice it. 

    10k is definitely not the norm. I can't log on to check the power logs but it's usually around 3-4kish a weave. 

    Ultimately the big issue is that some players will spend every day, over a period of months hunting for trees and this power will be up 24/7. I think the solution should not allow communes to continue generate extra power during these times but also not cost them an arm and a leg to maintain which is why I suggested what I did. It's still a net loss if it's just 100 power every 24 hours and no totem power generation. 

    Overall though I think the concept is actually a pretty good solution to the problem raised.
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  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    Just checked Glom power logs for the last six days. We're averaging 2,079 per weave at the moment.
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  • MalaynMalayn
    Corrections/Updates from my end:

    - Akyaevin pointed out that we often would summarize "free prime powers" but the constructs themselves ONLY say liveforest, and do not give distort free.

    - @Enyalida is looking at what I meant.  How many saplings do you guys start with in a room? 5? 4? 3? Then next stage you need less. Each stage you get less trees but they are all older I believe.  Elder can be totem, and has to be alaone. 

    - @Estarra As I said, I have no reliable access to the logs, but 10K power was a log taken directly from a powerlog summary from Serenwilde some time ago.  I believe Avurekhos was the bugger and so there is, in theory, a bug of his (even if rejected because it was some other source).  I want to say we spoke about maybe the chem skill upping power or something, because one of the numbers was very off. We can attempt to replicate it later if he is up for it, provided a bug was not submitted.

    - The flaw of the powers added is that it relies on cost efficiency. If something like 20 or 50 power (read as less than just leeches) can offset any prime raiding, when the trees already can be carved to prevent any chopping, then we will see no conflict anyway.  Remember, elders can be totem'd and most chopped trees were reverting elders, so if you instantly use the power you can do a sweep of all trees and barkguard or carve immediately. I am actually not sure how this is considered a major issue.

    Heck even if the power cost exactly as much as the amount of power generated (read as gain of 0 for trees) and lasted a full month, we would often see no raids due to carving.

    As an aside, note that I have not cut down trees for some time. I have no bias toward protecting or chopping, and am only looking at them mechanically. 

    I will adjust posts further up to show the chance in distort (in case of people wanting to quote later).  I agree with @Enyalida, replies are fast.  I Was posting and had 4 posts new already when I hit submit.
  • EstarraEstarra
    FYI, we've adjusted it to cost 150 power/hour and stackable up to 48 hours.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    What. Yes, you start with 5 moonhart saplings, that collectively generate only a small amount of power (not 2 each). My math is not exact, but it is approximately good. I know how totems work, heh.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Estarra said:

    Anyway, we'll see how it works, though I hope you will give it some time rather than taking a let's spite Estarra approach!


    Pointing out the flaws in an idea/development/release isn't spiteful, it's helpful! The passage of time doesn't do anything to change the math here.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    I don't really think a discretionary power to make trees unchoppable solves the problems stated. 

    I think this is more of a band-aid fix rather than re-doing the entire system (which is what the report was kind of asking for).  

    Sure, you can protect your trees as your re-growing them, but is it worth 150 power per hour to protect your sapling/mature/enormous moonhart/ravenwoods? Any elder needing protection should just be carved. 

    Effects me very little though, so whatev's


    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    *woods can protect growing Sacred trees for no power cost.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    People keep saying you can just carve an elder. Literally, yes. In practice, Druids aren't int constant patrol and gaps happens despite their best efforts. All the time in fact.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Celina said:
    People keep saying you can just carve an elder. Literally, yes. In practice, Druids aren't int constant patrol and gaps happens despite their best efforts. All the time in fact.

    That's right. This patch does nothing to solve that problem - what does is good recordkeeping.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    What's to keep Arcanis random people from cutting down a tree to make people waste 150 power, and then just running away for an hour and returning to do it again?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I don't see why we can't just let druids rune totems even if they aren't bonded.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    @Celina - this new power requires a druid security to activate - said druid security in all likelihood can carve totems, so they should just run around, carve all the elders, rather than activate the power. Yeah, maybe you get boned and there's a gap when some totems revert and there's no druid security to activate the power and people chop, but you're probably not going to activate the power when you have a druid that can carve. 

    it's all a guessing game from that point. 

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    You can pay ahead of time for up to 48 hours, but that's just as much of a gamble.
  • AkyaevinAkyaevin
    Would it be better, in that respect, if the discretionary just stops the totem revert counter from progressing while it's active? The 150p not only protects your totems (because they won't revert they can't be chopped), it cuts out the busywork. Not sure how easily it can be done by the admin though.
  • LeradLerad
    Doesn't resolve the points in my post: still maintains power disparity (or maintains a defense disparity if enough power is put in to maintain power parity) and does nothing to resolve the actual busywork that creates the axe hanging over druid players' neck. Conflict is good and all, but this is simply not creating conflict worth preserving.

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    The best solutions to the problem presented in report 1374 are the solutions in report 1374 and the comments of report 1374. If there is a continuing desire to have some kind of forest-only druid conflict mechanism, something else should be whipped up - totems do NOT provide meaningful interactions and conflict between players. 
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