We could also change some affs to stack and remove them in some ways:
for instance making the 7 numbs changed to: You are: experiencing 3 numbed areas.
Cap at 5 and ANY health apply cures. instead of 7 differnet affs.
Remove trembling and scrambledbrains, which are just attrition affs right now.
I am good with changing vomiting blood to vomiting that does bleeding, doesnt need to be a combo aff.
Remove partially damaged head, which to my knowledge can only be given by curing concussion with regen (dont think myrtle results in damaged head.. 2 regen cures or 1 herb, yeahhhh).
Lots of little things we can do to try to streamline down the curing and such.
I personally feel like we'd have less of an issue with synergy / balance / 1v1 effectiveness if skill design began with a solid, effective mechanic first and then was wrapped in RP afterwards.
The reason I say this is that Wyrdenwood was clearly designed with the 'rotting evil doom tree' image in mind, then you guys simply picked afflictions that fit with this theme, regardless of how useful they are in practice.
I know the admin have designed effective skillsets with an interesting theme in the past, and I have no idea what changed (if I had to guesstimate, the newest skills after the gaudiguch/hallifax guardians haven't been designed as effectively as their predecessors, which is why many of them needed special reports to improve, and some still do).
TL;DR: Mechanics first, then theme. This is a MUD game, not a MUD story.
-------------------------------------------
But yeah, how about buffing those weak affs instead, eh.
Okay, I am late to this party, but I feel obliged
to offer my personal take on the idea behind this proposal as a whole. I
will not be concentrating on the intestinal afflictions, so feel free
to ignore me and my post if you don't feel like reading what all the
other posters have already said. I might have considered not writing
this post at all, but apparently arguments in this thread are considered
on their own merits, so I guess I should grab this chance to be heard
as an individual, and not as part of a mob.
There is a reason
why the Wyrdenwood special report tries to change all the afflictions
given to certain other afflictions with no consideration for RP or
logic. That's because many of these afflictions are bloats that don't do
anything. They are fun and all, but they are effectively useless.
Classes that rely on them are basically weaker versions of classes that
rely on stronger afflictions. Wanting to improve them by making them
combine together to create a new power ranger (I mean new effect) is a
good idea, but there's a very simple way of making things simpler and
still resolving the RP-not-considered problem that apparently created
this brainchild.
Replace all of these useless afflictions with
the same effects of the stronger afflictions. Have worms = hypochondria =
sickening = clumsiness = anorexia. Make all of them prevent
eating/sipping. Tada, you have all the classes that used to have useless
afflictions now equipped with a strong, solid affliction, and all the roleplay you could ever want. Here, I'll even save you the trouble and write out the symptom lines for you.
sip health You
raise your pretty special vialname to your lips, but the worms in your
stomach annihilate your appetite and you put it down again.
outr chervil eat chervil You feel sick to your stomach, and cannot even consider looking at a chervil sprig.
eat platter You
reach for a platter of juicy illithoid inner worms but fumble and end
up grabbing a handful of nothing. Hah! What a clumsy idiot!
Now,
with all the afflictions condensed down to a few effects that are,
beyond any doubt, reliable, strong, and beta-tested for the past 8 RL
years they have existed, we can balance those classes whose afflictions
were changed in this manner. Classes that were saddled with sub-standard
afflictions for years can now be relieved of the crutch mechanics they
get from their other abilities that made them viable. You get less
afflictions, less complicated combat, and the same amount of roleplay.
Am
I a genius? What's that you say? This will make combat boring? But hey,
I'm addressing the problem that created this thread: people are
gravitating toward afflictions with no regard for the roleplay behind them. My suggestion will sacrifice combat and mechanical balance for roleplay. And as a bonus, it doesn't even go against the oft-quoted admin wish to make combat less complicated that is routinely used to veto envoy reports which suggest new afflictions.
"But
roleplay!" is a crutch reasoning for such changes. Roleplay can be
easily maintained and kept rich and interesting with smart writing.
Combat and mechanical balance cannot. This is a proposed change that is
good at heart and concerned with roleplay (which is always good), but
horrible in design and will be horrible in execution.
You are willingly creating a mountain of more work for yourself for two reasons. (Let's use the intestinal afflictions as an example:)
1) Exponential increases in effects.
Normally, you cast vomitting and worms and you get the effects from
vomitting and worms. Period, end of story. Now, you cast vomitting and
worms, and you get the effect of vomitting and worms PLUS ONE extra
effect. You
add dysentry (+1) and you get the effect of worms + vomitting + dysentry, PLUS
FOUR effects now, (not plus two, take note!).
Summary (before and after the proposed changes) 2 afflictions to 3 afflictions: you go from 2 effects -> 3 effects on your target. 2 afflictions to 3 afflictions, you will give your target 3 effects -> 7 effects.
For
more complicated interactions, or for sets with more than 3 constituent
afflictions, you're going to see an even more dangerous rate of
exponential multiplication. The classes that relied on intestinal
afflictions (which are weak, yes) already have crutches built in to
help make them viable despite the weak effects of these intestinal
afflictions. But these changes will not just let you take away those
crutches, you have to take away even more functionality, to
maintain the same amount of balance. How much more, and what exactly can
you take away to justify the exponential increase in effects? Well,
there's your envoying headache and countless hours of testing to find
out.
2) You are not just making new afflictions, you're making a new mechanic.
Just
because these new effects have no affliction name, does not take up an
affliction database slot and doesn't need to be cured (they are one-off
effects) doesn't mean jack. These are effects that are not tacked onto
one affliction (that's a buff), these are effects that have a unique condition for activation, basically, a specific combination of two specific afflictions. They are effectively invisible afflictions. How are you going to justify giving such a powerful functionality to a few archetypes and denying it to others?
The
changes you will need to make to those who are left out to make them
competitive will be a huge project in itself. Raikogen compared warrior
exponential stacking in groups to this. He's flat out wrong. This is
many times worse than warrior exponential stacking in groups. This is
creating a plethora of new afflictions that can be activated without
additional casts. Warrior exponential stacking in groups will become
obselete in the face of this.
So, completely aside from if this is a change that should be done, here's the balance issues and some possible fixes to make the proposed bonus afflictions more in line with how hard they are to afflict with and less work to code systems for:
Intestinal: The first 3 are reasonable. Maybe a bit strong for nihilists, with the balance lost, but totally workable. It's the sudden jump when you get all 3 that is problematic, since they're such easy afflictions to give. There's also the consideration that this change would make bonecrushers give people worms by hitting them really hard, which is odd to say the least. Recommended change: Worms + Vomiting: Converts all damage on vomiting tics to bleeding, hides the tic messages. Worms + Dysentery: Converts all damage on dysentery tics to bleeding, hides the tic messages. Vomiting + Dysentery: Extra damage from vomiting/dysentery tics. All three: On the next vomiting tic, a single gross message where you puke out all the worms in a pool of blood. Causes 400 bleeding and anorexia, but cures the other three afflictions. Bonecrushers to Vomiting + Dysentery, not worms. For RP reasons.
Lungs: Unconsciousness is a big deal. And making these harder to cure on top of that is too far. Recomended change: 50% chance of vapors/blacklung tics to also cause the other's effect if both are present. 100% chance if shortened breath is also present.
Phobic: I like this one how it is, for the most part. Would need to see how the no bromides thing works in practice. Recommended change: None. Looks fine to me.
Mental: The insanity here is not needed, Illuminati are already set for afflicting insanity. Otherwise, this seems like it would be really good for wiccan hexens looking to toadcurse and celestine/nihilist in general looking to absolve/wrack. Recommended change: Replace the 3 illness effect with something that isn't insanity. Maybe just move the current 2 aff effect up.
Disease: Sun allergy is the odd man out here, since it's the only one cantors can afflict with, but not available to cacophones/necromancers/liches. Recommended change: I'm really leery of the 4 disease no health potions work thing, since these are all very easy afflictions to give.
Nerves: This one looks really good for warriors and monks, oddly enough. Enfeeble is easy to give (enchantment), hard to cure (allheale only), and, along with 3 of Ibululu/Anatine/Inyoka/Mellitin, lets them stop parries by force-unwielding weapons/shields. Recommended change: None. I don't mind giving warriors and monks some bonuses, and if they want to take the time to build this combo, they deserve it.
For the sake of argument, assuming we are going to do some form of this, how would you design a synergistic redesign of worms-dysentery-vomiting?
First I would take the afflictions out of the hands of guardians. [Remove Worms, Vomiting from the hexes skillset & Take them from the nihilist pact (not sure which one, Gorgulu I think?)]
I would remove the hunger aspect of the afflictions, both sides of the equation dislike hunger attrition. Considering this buff is for Wyrdenwood, they will synergize with damage.
Worms: Prevent use of sparkleberry OR slow sparkleberry balance
Dysentery: Health/mana/bromide balance steal OR slow balance recovery time
Vomiting: Causes damage on a fast tic... Maybe 500 every 3s
On a vomit tic: if you have Worms, it will mini-stun you for 1s
On a vomit tic: If you have Dysentery, it afflicts you sensitivity
I'm not sure how I feel about only getting to attack/cure for 2s between vomiting ticks, especially when I get behind in curing even just a little. Especially if you tie in copious amounts of shieldstun until the opponent is really behind.
I'll just reiterate that I'd rather just upgrade these afflictions, but if that doesn't work, we can also try retooling the afflictions to be useful for wyrdenwood instead of making these combos.
Like:
Worms - x% less health sip / sparkle / scroll when done
Vomiting - Sips have a chance to not heal the user
Dysentery - % of health sip turns into bleeding
If you must insist on combo effects, I'd recommend the effects be just super-powered versions (faster tick, more damage, etc), instead of something completely new.
So if you don't change worms/dysentery/vomiting to do something, just make the combo effect do super versions of their current effects (that'd be lame though). If you change the affs to do something else, then do the same.
Whoa, my first thought here is that some guilds would be WAY WAY better equipped to make use of these synergy attacks (the ones that have some... synergy) and it would shoot them through the roof! I agree with above comments, especially Rivius's breakdown on the first page.
I also agree that the way to help Wyrdenwoods isn't to make the afflictions they already do synergize in some magicalway (that doesn't help any of the other woodchemancers). I think the best way would be to cave to near universal Envoy pressure and allow a rebuild of some woodchemantics mechanics from the ground up to work better and be generally less gimpy.
I don't mind those solutions Shuyin. I don't think what I posted is necessarily too powerful, since the balance on purgatives is so fast, and wyrdenwood have no way of hindering it. However, I do think it is important for these affs to be removed from hexes if they are going to be buffed enough to be the foundation of an offense.
For the sake of argument, assuming we are going to do some form of this, how would you design a synergistic redesign of worms-dysentery-vomiting?
First I would take the afflictions out of the hands of guardians. [Remove Worms, Vomiting from the hexes skillset & Take them from the nihilist pact (not sure which one, Gorgulu I think?)]
I would remove the hunger aspect of the afflictions, both sides of the equation dislike hunger attrition. Considering this buff is for Wyrdenwood, they will synergize with damage.
Worms: Prevent use of sparkleberry OR slow sparkleberry balance
Dysentery: Health/mana/bromide balance steal OR slow balance recovery time
Vomiting: Causes damage on a fast tic... Maybe 500 every 3s
On a vomit tic: if you have Worms, it will mini-stun you for 1s
On a vomit tic: If you have Dysentery, it afflicts you sensitivity
Potentially: add PurgativeBane to ecology.
I like these suggestions. Especially the first part, I have never seen those hexes or pacts used to it's clear that only a change this large would make them useful at which point they would be too useful because they'd be able to stack 3 at will, where as the targeted guild to be buffed (Wyrdenwood) would have less of an ability to do this.
For the sake of argument, assuming we are going to do some form of this, how would you design a synergistic redesign of worms-dysentery-vomiting?
First I would take the afflictions out of the hands of guardians. [Remove Worms, Vomiting from the hexes skillset & Take them from the nihilist pact (not sure which one, Gorgulu I think?)]
I would remove the hunger aspect of the afflictions, both sides of the equation dislike hunger attrition. Considering this buff is for Wyrdenwood, they will synergize with damage.
Worms: Prevent use of sparkleberry OR slow sparkleberry balance
Dysentery: Health/mana/bromide balance steal OR slow balance recovery time
Vomiting: Causes damage on a fast tic... Maybe 500 every 3s
On a vomit tic: if you have Worms, it will mini-stun you for 1s
On a vomit tic: If you have Dysentery, it afflicts you sensitivity
Potentially: add PurgativeBane to ecology.
Nihilists have no actual way of giving dysentery, so this combination would actually fail for Nihilists. Its not in Hexes nor is it a pact. Worms is in the Gorgulu pact, Worms/Vomiting are both in Hexes (but more useful then scabies/epilepsy? Doubtful).
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
This is going to open the gate for some classes, working beneficially in situations such as 1 vs 1, allowing them to actually become viable.
On the flip side, it will break group fighting considerably. Min/maxers are gonna do so to an even greater extent and the aff classes will fare equally as well.
I just think this is a really bad idea. Change how a few afflictions work, maybe... Making fundamental changes like this? No thanks.
Improve the crappy affs a little. Some synergy effects are also good, but nothing huge should be included. Consider how easily many guilds could do 2 at a time.
Part of the complaint is system complication, this will only compound the issue. (Another being you need 1400 credits to enter combat but whose counting)
Ok I have pondered this for a day so here goes. I like the concept but I
don't think it will work in Lusternia at the moment because we simply
have too many afflictions. These new combo afflictions can be combined with
the immense amount of other afflictions available for some devastating
combinations.
My honest opinion is if this is going to be done, do it in combination with a rationalization of the afflictions available. Remove some afflictions. You could actually replace some of the pointless afflictions with these combos etc etc. That could make the game more interesting because you could set it up as a true tier affliction system ie minimum stand alone impacts from afflictions but in combination of 2,3,4 they have a greater impact.
This would be a huge change but honestly you are talking about a big change here and on that basis I think we should discuss alternative affliction regimes.
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
I like the combo afflictions from a flavour and mechanical view. I fight rarely but enjoy when I do. Combat is already more complicated than I can follow, so a little more won't put me off. I also use m&m so don't code my own defense (thank you Vadi and all other system builders).
Of course there'd have to be balancing, same with any big change, but it looks worth introducing in some form (Shuyin's suggestion or otherwise) for worms, vomiting and dysentery to see how it goes.
Nihilists have no actual way of giving dysentery, so this combination would actually fail for Nihilists. Its not in Hexes nor is it a pact. Worms is in the Gorgulu pact, Worms/Vomiting are both in Hexes (but more useful then scabies/epilepsy? Doubtful).
They don't? You said in one of your own posts just last page: Silvanus said:
I can whammy vapors and worms. And 2 seconds later whammy vomiting an dysentery under the blackout from the vapors.
To also assist with this, I order demon to attack with dark fate and stupidity to prevent curing.
Right before this, I can also Omen to increase damage done.
Personally I, like some other people that have already voiced, am against introducing so many changes in one go to an already complicated system. While I help defend where I can, I am by no means a combatant, though I do have a system to try to help me where possible. Such sweeping changes will only serve to complicate things further and overwhelm people new to pvp combat. Heck, I've been playing for quite a while myself and I'm overwhelmed by some of the changes.
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
One, the changes are not for Wyrdenwood – they're for affliction classes broadly. They're meant to make affliction-oriented tertiaries (Hexes, Runes) more effective. Certainly, a hexist nihilist will probably aim for disease-oriented combos in such a system – that's partly the point. The discussion arose while talking about Wyrdenwood and the weakness of some afflictions; in lieu of just buffing "weak" afflictions, scaling effects was brought up, and returned to the table when we got the Wyrdenwood report.
Two, they would not all be implemented at once, but phase by phase (at least, initially, intestinal only). For the moment, that's where discussion should be oriented (can talk about mental, phobic, etc later), for the sake of narrowing focus, as I recall.
Three, I ask that some people reconsider their tone and re-read their posts before making them. As always, sarcasm-laden hostility rarely goes far in any conversation and valuable points are probably being lost in it. I can't stress this enough. Very informed opinions, in any discussion, can/will be lost beneath an avalanche of sarcasm.
Four, we may or may not need to look at primaries and secondaries (and even tertiaries) and consider adjusting some things like rate of fire or afflictions given. (Maybe bonecrushers need something other than 'vomiting blood', for example)
As a suggestion for conversational direction, I – personally – would like to know where problems would arise should Intestinal Ailment Combos brought in. E.g., Nihilists could insta-lockdown people for an immediate, no effort crucify. Then, I'd like to know what causes that problem (low power cost on double whammy? Rate of Nihilist afflictions via demon/Necromancy?). What, specifically, causes the problems – and what could be altered to maintain it as a viable option for Nihilists without being "crazy oh pee".
I feel there is a serious disconnect going on here.
Nihilists are a tremendous PvP class. They don't need anything else. Why are the administration bent on creating a project for themselves when they have other work to do?
I personally also feel that any time spent on this could certainly be much better spent in other areas. i.e. Areas the playerbase have identified on these very forums.
I find it baffling that the admin has been so obstinate in not altering the mechanics of -chemantics and -wood specializations, but it's willing to alter combat mechanics fundamentally by introducing new affliction effects. Doesn't make sense to me in the slightest. Recently, skillsets have required player intervention to either tone down their effects, or make them something less than useless. This is evidenced by the ridiculousness that was pre-nerf pryomancers, illuminati, current researchers, the continuing problem of monks, -chemantics and -woods, etc. Thematically, amazing. Mechanically? Out of whack. The proposed change throws yet another factor into a system that's already widely recognized as being impossible to properly balance due to the sheer number of skillsets, afflictions, and their interactions.
Deleting or slightly increasing the potency of underused or underpowered afflictions would be welcome, but I'm worried about the repercussions of what's being suggested and the massive headache of balancing them on top of the preexisting mechanics we have to balance around.
I feel there is a serious disconnect going on here.
Nihilists are a tremendous PvP class. They don't need anything else. Why are the administration bent on creating a project for themselves when they have other work to do?
Look, you guys can participate in the discussion or not – I don't want to sound dismissive, and I don't doubt Estarra here's your concerns/opinions, however sitting there going "no" is deeply unhelpful.
Some people (some in this very thread, at that) have asked we "run changes by players before implenting them" – here's your chance to weigh in. "Input on how this could be implemented?" is being answered with "No" by some, and that's not really helpful. If it turns out to be too much work, fine – let's not dictate to Estarra what is or isn't too much work, though. She knows better than anyone how our resources can be best spent.
As a glimpse into my world, when we're talking about things in Havens – even if I don't like the change – I try to engage the discussion on how to implement it. If I think it's too much work, I'll continue in the discussion of how to implement it, point out I don't think it's worth the resources, and let Estarra make that decision. It may well be too much work to be worth it at this particular point in time, but "no" doesn't convince anyone of that nor is it productive.
To clarify: I'm not "bent" on anything. I'm asking you to participate in a discussion, in lieu of standing there going "No."
We're trying to get constructive feedback (and for those who have given some, thank you!), but really if all you're going to do is say 'everyone on the forums says it's a bad idea' or 'you have better things to do' or accuse us of being disconnected or not listening, etc., then you are not adding to the discussion, but rather closing it down.
When I start threads like this, I'm looking for more than just 'this is a bad idea' (or even 'this is a good idea') but for constructive feedback on how best to make it work if we go forward. I'm thinking of deleting posts that aren't constructive or are overly hostile/snarky just so we can review the ideas and feedback on the thread without the drama. So before I resort to that, let's try for constructive feedback going forward!
I feel there is a serious disconnect going on here.
Nihilists are a tremendous PvP class. They don't need anything else. Why are the administration bent on creating a project for themselves when they have other work to do?
Look, you guys can participate in the discussion or not – I don't want to sound dismissive, and I don't doubt Estarra here's your concerns/opinions, however sitting there going "no" is deeply unhelpful.
Some people (some in this very thread, at that) have asked we "run changes by players before implenting them" – here's your chance to weigh in. "Input on how this could be implemented?" is being answered with "No" by some, and that's not really helpful. If it turns out to be too much work, fine – let's not dictate to Estarra what is or isn't too much work, though. She knows better than anyone how our resources can be best spent.
As a glimpse into my world, when we're talking about things in Havens – even if I don't like the change – I try to engage the discussion on how to implement it. If I think it's too much work, I'll continue in the discussion of how to implement it, point out I don't think it's worth the resources, and let Estarra make that decision. It may well be too much work to be worth it at this particular point in time, but "no" doesn't convince anyone of that nor is it productive.
To clarify: I'm not "bent" on anything. I'm asking you to participate in a discussion, in lieu of standing there going "No."
I feel like that's exactly what most of us are doing (with a few vocal exceptions); participating in the discussion of how to implement, pointing out the hurdles involved.
It will make system-coding from a player standpoint significantly more complex to add new "effects" in, because new effects are basically a new affliction without the affliction tag. This means that systems won't even be able to do checks on single affs (do I have anorexia), but instead on combinations of affs in a much more intense and across the board manner than we currently have.
We would be better off just adding new afflictions instead of new effects.
However, increasing the potency of current afflictions as they are stacked with others in the same set is fine in most cases. Increase the damage, sure. Speed up the tick rate, fine. Maybe even just buff a truly sub par affliction.
And that's what we've been suggesting for this initial Internals overhaul. Anything more than that is going to require rewriting Hexes, and when we move into other aff-categories things like Runes and Telepathy will also need a rewrite.
I feel there is a serious disconnect going on here.
Nihilists are a tremendous PvP class. They don't need anything else. Why are the administration bent on creating a project for themselves when they have other work to do?
Look, you guys can participate in the discussion or not – I don't want to sound dismissive, and I don't doubt Estarra here's your concerns/opinions, however sitting there going "no" is deeply unhelpful.
Some people (some in this very thread, at that) have asked we "run changes by players before implenting them" – here's your chance to weigh in. "Input on how this could be implemented?" is being answered with "No" by some, and that's not really helpful. If it turns out to be too much work, fine – let's not dictate to Estarra what is or isn't too much work, though. She knows better than anyone how our resources can be best spent.
As a glimpse into my world, when we're talking about things in Havens – even if I don't like the change – I try to engage the discussion on how to implement it. If I think it's too much work, I'll continue in the discussion of how to implement it, point out I don't think it's worth the resources, and let Estarra make that decision. It may well be too much work to be worth it at this particular point in time, but "no" doesn't convince anyone of that nor is it productive.
To clarify: I'm not "bent" on anything. I'm asking you to participate in a discussion, in lieu of standing there going "No."
For the sake of argument, assuming we are going to do some form of this, how would you design a synergistic redesign of worms-dysentery-vomiting?
First I would take the afflictions out of the hands of guardians. [Remove Worms, Vomiting from the hexes skillset & Take them from the nihilist pact (not sure which one, Gorgulu I think?)]
I would remove the hunger aspect of the afflictions, both sides of the equation dislike hunger attrition. Considering this buff is for Wyrdenwood, they will synergize with damage.
Worms: Prevent use of sparkleberry OR slow sparkleberry balance
Dysentery: Health/mana/bromide balance steal OR slow balance recovery time
Vomiting: Causes damage on a fast tic... Maybe 500 every 3s
On a vomit tic: if you have Worms, it will mini-stun you for 1s
On a vomit tic: If you have Dysentery, it afflicts you sensitivity
I'd have reservations about buffing vomiting this way. It's just putting more damage in the hands of those already extremely capable of delivering such.
Uh, affliction classes aren't in need of that much help.
The envoy system has been fairly successful at ironing out perceived kinks in affliction offenses (the most recent example being Celina's hexes report).
So I'll just echo Loth and say that I have no idea why you guys would broadly change afflictions instead of simply focusing on classes that need such changes. If there's a patch of brown grass on your lawn, you don't uproot the entire garden.
Again, I don't think this change is necessary.
I'd rather do try these changes first, in this order:
1. Upgrade weaker affs (faster tick, more damage, etc).
2. Change their effects to be more useful to the classes that utilize them.
3. Eliminate multiple cures for an aff along with 1+2
4. Delete extraneous curing balances and move them to others with 1-3.
BUT if you guys are really keen on your affliction combos, just make it so having the affs on you makes super versions of their current effects. And ONLY that.
Comments
for instance making the 7 numbs changed to:
You are:
experiencing 3 numbed areas.
Cap at 5 and ANY health apply cures. instead of 7 differnet affs.
Remove trembling and scrambledbrains, which are just attrition affs right now.
I am good with changing vomiting blood to vomiting that does bleeding, doesnt need to be a combo aff.
Remove partially damaged head, which to my knowledge can only be given by curing concussion with regen (dont think myrtle results in damaged head.. 2 regen cures or 1 herb, yeahhhh).
Lots of little things we can do to try to streamline down the curing and such.
Okay, I am late to this party, but I feel obliged to offer my personal take on the idea behind this proposal as a whole. I will not be concentrating on the intestinal afflictions, so feel free to ignore me and my post if you don't feel like reading what all the other posters have already said. I might have considered not writing this post at all, but apparently arguments in this thread are considered on their own merits, so I guess I should grab this chance to be heard as an individual, and not as part of a mob.
There is a reason why the Wyrdenwood special report tries to change all the afflictions given to certain other afflictions with no consideration for RP or logic. That's because many of these afflictions are bloats that don't do anything. They are fun and all, but they are effectively useless. Classes that rely on them are basically weaker versions of classes that rely on stronger afflictions. Wanting to improve them by making them combine together to create a new power ranger (I mean new effect) is a good idea, but there's a very simple way of making things simpler and still resolving the RP-not-considered problem that apparently created this brainchild.
Replace all of these useless afflictions with the same effects of the stronger afflictions. Have worms = hypochondria = sickening = clumsiness = anorexia. Make all of them prevent eating/sipping. Tada, you have all the classes that used to have useless afflictions now equipped with a strong, solid affliction, and all the roleplay you could ever want. Here, I'll even save you the trouble and write out the symptom lines for you.
sip health
You raise your pretty special vialname to your lips, but the worms in your stomach annihilate your appetite and you put it down again.
outr chervil
eat chervil
You feel sick to your stomach, and cannot even consider looking at a chervil sprig.
eat platter
You reach for a platter of juicy illithoid inner worms but fumble and end up grabbing a handful of nothing. Hah! What a clumsy idiot!
Now, with all the afflictions condensed down to a few effects that are, beyond any doubt, reliable, strong, and beta-tested for the past 8 RL years they have existed, we can balance those classes whose afflictions were changed in this manner. Classes that were saddled with sub-standard afflictions for years can now be relieved of the crutch mechanics they get from their other abilities that made them viable. You get less afflictions, less complicated combat, and the same amount of roleplay.
Am I a genius? What's that you say? This will make combat boring? But hey, I'm addressing the problem that created this thread: people are gravitating toward afflictions with no regard for the roleplay behind them. My suggestion will sacrifice combat and mechanical balance for roleplay. And as a bonus, it doesn't even go against the oft-quoted admin wish to make combat less complicated that is routinely used to veto envoy reports which suggest new afflictions.
"But roleplay!" is a crutch reasoning for such changes. Roleplay can be easily maintained and kept rich and interesting with smart writing. Combat and mechanical balance cannot. This is a proposed change that is good at heart and concerned with roleplay (which is always good), but horrible in design and will be horrible in execution.
You are willingly creating a mountain of more work for yourself for two reasons. (Let's use the intestinal afflictions as an example:)
1) Exponential increases in effects.
Normally, you cast vomitting and worms and you get the effects from vomitting and worms. Period, end of story. Now, you cast vomitting and worms, and you get the effect of vomitting and worms PLUS ONE extra effect. You add dysentry (+1) and you get the effect of worms + vomitting + dysentry, PLUS FOUR effects now, (not plus two, take note!).
Summary (before and after the proposed changes)
2 afflictions to 3 afflictions: you go from 2 effects -> 3 effects on your target.
2 afflictions to 3 afflictions, you will give your target 3 effects -> 7 effects.
For more complicated interactions, or for sets with more than 3 constituent afflictions, you're going to see an even more dangerous rate of exponential multiplication. The classes that relied on intestinal afflictions (which are weak, yes) already have crutches built in to help make them viable despite the weak effects of these intestinal afflictions. But these changes will not just let you take away those crutches, you have to take away even more functionality, to maintain the same amount of balance. How much more, and what exactly can you take away to justify the exponential increase in effects? Well, there's your envoying headache and countless hours of testing to find out.
2) You are not just making new afflictions, you're making a new mechanic.
Just because these new effects have no affliction name, does not take up an affliction database slot and doesn't need to be cured (they are one-off effects) doesn't mean jack. These are effects that are not tacked onto one affliction (that's a buff), these are effects that have a unique condition for activation, basically, a specific combination of two specific afflictions. They are effectively invisible afflictions. How are you going to justify giving such a powerful functionality to a few archetypes and denying it to others?
The changes you will need to make to those who are left out to make them competitive will be a huge project in itself. Raikogen compared warrior exponential stacking in groups to this. He's flat out wrong. This is many times worse than warrior exponential stacking in groups. This is creating a plethora of new afflictions that can be activated without additional casts. Warrior exponential stacking in groups will become obselete in the face of this.
Intestinal:
The first 3 are reasonable. Maybe a bit strong for nihilists, with the balance lost, but totally workable. It's the sudden jump when you get all 3 that is problematic, since they're such easy afflictions to give. There's also the consideration that this change would make bonecrushers give people worms by hitting them really hard, which is odd to say the least.
Recommended change:
Worms + Vomiting: Converts all damage on vomiting tics to bleeding, hides the tic messages.
Worms + Dysentery: Converts all damage on dysentery tics to bleeding, hides the tic messages.
Vomiting + Dysentery: Extra damage from vomiting/dysentery tics.
All three: On the next vomiting tic, a single gross message where you puke out all the worms in a pool of blood. Causes 400 bleeding and anorexia, but cures the other three afflictions.
Bonecrushers to Vomiting + Dysentery, not worms. For RP reasons.
Lungs:
Unconsciousness is a big deal. And making these harder to cure on top of that is too far.
Recomended change:
50% chance of vapors/blacklung tics to also cause the other's effect if both are present. 100% chance if shortened breath is also present.
Phobic:
I like this one how it is, for the most part. Would need to see how the no bromides thing works in practice.
Recommended change:
None. Looks fine to me.
Mental:
The insanity here is not needed, Illuminati are already set for afflicting insanity. Otherwise, this seems like it would be really good for wiccan hexens looking to toadcurse and celestine/nihilist in general looking to absolve/wrack.
Recommended change:
Replace the 3 illness effect with something that isn't insanity. Maybe just move the current 2 aff effect up.
Disease:
Sun allergy is the odd man out here, since it's the only one cantors can afflict with, but not available to cacophones/necromancers/liches.
Recommended change:
I'm really leery of the 4 disease no health potions work thing, since these are all very easy afflictions to give.
Nerves:
This one looks really good for warriors and monks, oddly enough. Enfeeble is easy to give (enchantment), hard to cure (allheale only), and, along with 3 of Ibululu/Anatine/Inyoka/Mellitin, lets them stop parries by force-unwielding weapons/shields.
Recommended change:
None. I don't mind giving warriors and monks some bonuses, and if they want to take the time to build this combo, they deserve it.
Improve the crappy affs a little. Some synergy effects are also good, but nothing huge should be included. Consider how easily many guilds could do 2 at a time.
Part of the complaint is system complication, this will only compound the issue. (Another being you need 1400 credits to enter combat but whose counting)
My honest opinion is if this is going to be done, do it in combination with a rationalization of the afflictions available. Remove some afflictions. You could actually replace some of the pointless afflictions with these combos etc etc. That could make the game more interesting because you could set it up as a true tier affliction system ie minimum stand alone impacts from afflictions but in combination of 2,3,4 they have a greater impact.
This would be a huge change but honestly you are talking about a big change here and on that basis I think we should discuss alternative affliction regimes.
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
Of course there'd have to be balancing, same with any big change, but it looks worth introducing in some form (Shuyin's suggestion or otherwise) for worms, vomiting and dysentery to see how it goes.
The euphemism 'dysentery task' is amusing.
Silvanus said:
Personally I, like some other people that have already voiced, am against introducing so many changes in one go to an already complicated system. While I help defend where I can, I am by no means a combatant, though I do have a system to try to help me where possible. Such sweeping changes will only serve to complicate things further and overwhelm people new to pvp combat. Heck, I've been playing for quite a while myself and I'm overwhelmed by some of the changes.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
One, the changes are not for Wyrdenwood – they're for affliction classes broadly. They're meant to make affliction-oriented tertiaries (Hexes, Runes) more effective. Certainly, a hexist nihilist will probably aim for disease-oriented combos in such a system – that's partly the point. The discussion arose while talking about Wyrdenwood and the weakness of some afflictions; in lieu of just buffing "weak" afflictions, scaling effects was brought up, and returned to the table when we got the Wyrdenwood report.
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Look, you guys can participate in the discussion or not – I don't want to sound dismissive, and I don't doubt Estarra here's your concerns/opinions, however sitting there going "no" is deeply unhelpful.
Some people (some in this very thread, at that) have asked we "run changes by players before implenting them" – here's your chance to weigh in. "Input on how this could be implemented?" is being answered with "No" by some, and that's not really helpful. If it turns out to be too much work, fine – let's not dictate to Estarra what is or isn't too much work, though. She knows better than anyone how our resources can be best spent.
As a glimpse into my world, when we're talking about things in Havens – even if I don't like the change – I try to engage the discussion on how to implement it. If I think it's too much work, I'll continue in the discussion of how to implement it, point out I don't think it's worth the resources, and let Estarra make that decision. It may well be too much work to be worth it at this particular point in time, but "no" doesn't convince anyone of that nor is it productive.
To clarify: I'm not "bent" on anything. I'm asking you to participate in a discussion, in lieu of standing there going "No."
When I start threads like this, I'm looking for more than just 'this is a bad idea' (or even 'this is a good idea') but for constructive feedback on how best to make it work if we go forward. I'm thinking of deleting posts that aren't constructive or are overly hostile/snarky just so we can review the ideas and feedback on the thread without the drama. So before I resort to that, let's try for constructive feedback going forward!
Look, you guys can participate in the discussion or not – I don't want to sound dismissive, and I don't doubt Estarra here's your concerns/opinions, however sitting there going "no" is deeply unhelpful.
Some people (some in this very thread, at that) have asked we "run changes by players before implenting them" – here's your chance to weigh in. "Input on how this could be implemented?" is being answered with "No" by some, and that's not really helpful. If it turns out to be too much work, fine – let's not dictate to Estarra what is or isn't too much work, though. She knows better than anyone how our resources can be best spent.
As a glimpse into my world, when we're talking about things in Havens – even if I don't like the change – I try to engage the discussion on how to implement it. If I think it's too much work, I'll continue in the discussion of how to implement it, point out I don't think it's worth the resources, and let Estarra make that decision. It may well be too much work to be worth it at this particular point in time, but "no" doesn't convince anyone of that nor is it productive.
To clarify: I'm not "bent" on anything. I'm asking you to participate in a discussion, in lieu of standing there going "No."
I feel like that's exactly what most of us are doing (with a few vocal exceptions); participating in the discussion of how to implement, pointing out the hurdles involved.
It will make system-coding from a player standpoint significantly more complex to add new "effects" in, because new effects are basically a new affliction without the affliction tag. This means that systems won't even be able to do checks on single affs (do I have anorexia), but instead on combinations of affs in a much more intense and across the board manner than we currently have.
We would be better off just adding new afflictions instead of new effects.
However, increasing the potency of current afflictions as they are stacked with others in the same set is fine in most cases. Increase the damage, sure. Speed up the tick rate, fine. Maybe even just buff a truly sub par affliction.
And that's what we've been suggesting for this initial Internals overhaul. Anything more than that is going to require rewriting Hexes, and when we move into other aff-categories things like Runes and Telepathy will also need a rewrite.
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