If their touching you disturbs you because you can't place their gender in your carefully labeled pair of boxes, that's your problem.
Eh, careful with wording. I feel like it's fine to be repulsed by touch for any reason whatsoever. Some people just don't want to be touched at all. Granted, whether or not it's going to be respected in a world where people will murder your face at any given moment is another thing, but we should take care where we draw the lines (and why).
Also, it's actually very awkward to some that an.... ungendered person would actually touch them regularly, as Mysrai does. As male or female. Quite a few people aren't comfortable with that in an IC fashion (I'm fine with it, though I was always ignored by 'Them' until I left). I've 'd Esty though for ages. And Esty knows that.
I'm somewhat sure there's a difference between ungendered and all-gendered. A couch is ungendered. Someone whose gender shifts might be all-gendered. Further, I feel that referring to another person as "it" seems to have a bit of a derisive tone to it. If you're uncomfortable with another person touching you regardless of their gender or lack thereof, I suggest you just respectfully speak to that person about it.
If their touching you disturbs you because you can't place their gender in your carefully labeled pair of boxes, that's your problem.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm confused about whether this is an IC or OOC issue. Obviously whatever prompted this discussion was some inappropriate behavior, blurring of lines, who knows... but like other folks said, there's perfectly valid reasons for a character to call a god (or any other character) "it," and even to ignore their stated preferences. Some clarification would be helpful.
I'm confused about whether this is an IC or OOC issue. Obviously whatever prompted this discussion was some inappropriate behavior, blurring of lines, who knows... but like other folks said, there's perfectly valid reasons for a character to call a god (or any other character) "it," and even to ignore their stated preferences. Some clarification would be helpful.
I'm in the same place. Just like there's a place for murder and racism in Lusternia, I wonder if there is a place for gender discrimination (and could kepheran female superiority be a very lite, toned down version of this?). I don't know what sparked this discussion.
Of course, OOC, absolutely, this is unacceptable, and the harrassment should be punished accordingly. No question.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Apologies if these have been covered already, but I've got questions on the topic.
Historically, english has used 'he' as the default singular third-person. If that's an insult or disrespectful, then we need a different default. They is one option, but it's not really singular. It is another option, but apparently that's hella insulting. My normal answer is to just use a singular they, but that makes conjugation weird and it's generally nonoptimal. What's the good solution?
It's been made pretty clear that people ought to be referred to by whichever pronoun they prefer. It's also been made clear that 'it' is insulting. What about for those who identify as an 'it'? For a term to be insulting, it has to be an insult. Can those two things both be true without discriminating? Obviously if the issue is simply being disrespectful then hey whatever, but y'know.
Expanding on the previous: why is it disrespectful to misgender someone? I can't see how one can consider being called male or female problematic without calling being male or female problematic. Frankly, I'd go so far as to consider it an extension of internalized sexism. Outside of medical and potentially romantic situations, gender should be simply irrelevant. Making accuracy necessary instead increases the awareness of any difference. In an ideal world, we could reach both perfect awareness and perfect irrelevance, but as it stands the two push opposite.
As far as I understood it, misgendering isn't the problem. It's more the fact that "it" refers to objects, not people, and as such calling a person "it" isn't exactly the best course of action.
Apologies if these have been covered already, but I've got questions on the topic.
I: What's the good solution?
II: What about for those who identify as an 'it'? For a term to be insulting, it has to be an insult. Can those two things both be true without discriminating? Obviously if the issue is simply being disrespectful then hey whatever, but y'know.
Expanding on the previous: why is it disrespectful to misgender someone? I can't see how one can consider being called male or female problematic without calling being male or female problematic. Frankly, I'd go so far as to consider it an extension of internalized sexism. Outside of medical and potentially romantic situations, gender should be simply irrelevant. Making accuracy necessary instead increases the awareness of any difference. In an ideal world, we could reach both perfect awareness and perfect irrelevance, but as it stands the two push opposite.
I. Them and they are perfectly acceptable until a preferred pronoun is given. After all, you might know if your mailperson is a girl or a guy, but you always ask whoever picked up the mail what "they" brought. If you truly wish to be gender neutral, you can use 'hir'. Subjective forms associated with hir include s/he, sie, shi, and ze.
II. If someone identifies as an 'it' and chooses to be addressed as such, then no disrespect can come from using what they choose (at least to them). Should someone outside the situation find offence in it, approaching either party would quickly clear up the matter.
III. Internalised misogyny and homophobia is the biggest problem, there. When I was younger I was called 'girl' and 'she' all the time by homophobic bigots who wished to offend me as deeply as possible, and it did hurt. It cut me to the core, because I wasn't a girl.* I was a boy, and just because I liked boys they wanted to put a completely different reality on me that I wasn't comfortable with. They did it maliciously, knowing it would hurt. After 'girl' and 'she' got old, the traditional sissy, p***y, f****t, et. all began to follow.
That's the problem with misgendering. It starts off easy but easily drops into terrible slurs that can cause people to hate themselves for being who they are. While I don't have the firsthand experience, one of my close friends, who happened to be a lesbian, committed suicide because everywhere she went people would call her terrible, terrible names and assault her physically and mentally every day just because she didn't conform to traditional 'ladylike' standards. Now she's gone from this world.
Misgendering itself is not an insult, but intentional misgendering is. It's a vicious tactic used by awful people to turn you against yourself up to the point where it's unbearable. I'm lucky in that I found people who accept me for who I am and helped (and are still helping) me recover, but not everyone has that type of support. If you look at me, I'll look like one of the happiest, most care-free people you could find. I'm still scarred on the inside, though, and there are people I can never look in the face again because of what they've said.
Hope this was able to answer your questions.
*I hope this isn't seen as a claim that women are inferior by any means. When you're fighting to be accepted as a normal little boy, being misgendered as a girl is one of the most monumentally insulting things someone can do.
And here I thought it was valid RP to call Mysrai it, and Mysrai just gets offended because 'it' implies the singular when Mysrai is a bunch of things all at once. Lord *and* lady, after all, and all of that such. Them can be used for plural, so...
Maligorn calls Mysrai "it" all the time in-character. He thinks Mysrai is an abomination, but it's certainly not because of the gender thing. Gender things and sexuality things don't exist in Lusternia, in my mind. He just thinks Mysrai is a thing from the Void that needs to be exterminated. Has nothing to do with gender. Is that not okay?
Mainly, I wouldn't worry about it unless someone asks you to change your use of pronouns or you're dealing with Mysrai directly (in which case you can ask Them). See above, re: jumping down people's throat when they simply don't know.
Sorry for taking a while to respond,
Maligorn, even if informed about Mysrai's situation, would still intentionally refer to the thing he considers an abomination as "it", just as he would to Morgfyre. Maybe even to their face. Call me crazy, but I think bigotry is part of Hallifaxian (and I daresay Magnagoran and Celestian) RP. Obviously I wouldn't do this OOC, but Maligorn would not respect Mys enough to refer to Them as They wanted to be referred to. What I'm asking is where do I draw the line here, because I don't want to be agitating anyone's feelings OOC. Agitated feelings IC are a-OK with me though. Bring on the zaps.
Maligorn, even if informed about Mysrai's situation, would still intentionally refer to the thing he considers an abomination as "it", just as he would to Morgfyre. Maybe even to their face. Call me crazy, but I think bigotry is part of Hallifaxian (and I daresay Magnagoran and Celestian) RP. Obviously I wouldn't do this OOC, but Maligorn would not respect Mys enough to refer to Them as They wanted to be referred to. What I'm asking is where do I draw the line here, because I don't want to be agitating anyone's feelings OOC. Agitated feelings IC are a-OK with me though. Bring on the zaps.
The way I personally handle such IC/OOC contradictions is by prioritizing OOC. Even if it is out-of-character for my character. Using the same example, even if I played a character who would refer to the current Mysrai as an "it" and refuse to acknowledge Mysrai as a being worthy of respect, if I knew the player behind Mysrai has some personal issue with the term, I would break character and ret-con that part of my character. On the other hand, if that same character who would refer to Xenthos as an "it" and refuse to acknowledge him as a being worth of respect, and I know the player behind Xenthos is fine with it, I'd go ahead and have double standards on that character.
At the end of the day, there's a hierarchy of priority for every choice you make, and if you would rather prioritize not offending someone OOCly, then IC consistency might have to be sacrificed, and so be it. If you would rather prioritize your IC consistency over someone's OOC feelings, then that's your choice too - you'll just need to be prepared to deal with the consequences if the line you're crossing happens to be one that an admin (like Estarra) would take action against.
And here I thought it was valid RP to call Mysrai it, and Mysrai just gets offended because 'it' implies the singular when Mysrai is a bunch of things all at once. Lord *and* lady, after all, and all of that such. Them can be used for plural, so...
Maligorn calls Mysrai "it" all the time in-character. He thinks Mysrai is an abomination, but it's certainly not because of the gender thing. Gender things and sexuality things don't exist in Lusternia, in my mind. He just thinks Mysrai is a thing from the Void that needs to be exterminated. Has nothing to do with gender. Is that not okay?
Mainly, I wouldn't worry about it unless someone asks you to change your use of pronouns or you're dealing with Mysrai directly (in which case you can ask Them). See above, re: jumping down people's throat when they simply don't know.
Sorry for taking a while to respond,
Maligorn, even if informed about Mysrai's situation, would still intentionally refer to the thing he considers an abomination as "it", just as he would to Morgfyre. Maybe even to their face. Call me crazy, but I think bigotry is part of Hallifaxian (and I daresay Magnagoran and Celestian) RP. Obviously I wouldn't do this OOC, but Maligorn would not respect Mys enough to refer to Them as They wanted to be referred to. What I'm asking is where do I draw the line here, because I don't want to be agitating anyone's feelings OOC. Agitated feelings IC are a-OK with me though. Bring on the zaps.
Consider if 'thing' might be better, it would probably get you into the same argument. All in all, if you want a term that is more precise, why not 'abomination'?
The character of Alaksanteri as well as the player behind her are all women. For some various reasons, unknown by me but I guess Alaksanteri as a name does not sound feminine, when I started playing a lot of people talked to and of me as if I were a man. I waved it as a mistake from people who did not take the time to verify in my honours. I just kind of ignored it and never felt offended. If someone called me 'it', it would definitely not pass though.
It's true that Lusternia is not a utopia. It does deal with racism and violence and xenophobia and all sorts of other complex, conflict-stirring things.
However, there is an important distinction to realize here. The real world is still a very hostile place for the trans community, in a way that it is not hostile to fictional elfen, viscanti, and merians. Similarly, the real world is not in a tizzy over the injustice of sacrificing babies for Glomdoring.
There is a reason that Lusternia has no stigma associated with homosexuality, despite such a stigma unfortunately existing in the real world. Transphobia, too, is not only a reality in the world around us, but a fatal one that has cost too many people their dignity and consequently their lives. Calling someone the word 'it' has connotations from the real world, connotations of stripping people of their personhood and their dignity. Consider this. If you can do that for a Divine, one of the most powerful beings in Lusternia, what is stopping someone else from doing the same to a mere mortal?
This is not to say that the RP of viewing Mysrai as an 'abomination' cannot exist, but rather, that you should be thoughtful about how you choose to frame those views, particularly since you may not know who you are speaking to. Lusternia does have transgender players, and they, like everyone else, have the right to feel safe in the game they are playing.
@Estarra, I love you for this. This sort of acceptance is a bigger part of Lusternia than I think most people realize. And it always has been.
I would personally prefer that people don't even attempt this sort of division IC. But if you do, as people have said, please accept what your RP target is or is not willing to accept. You're not playing this game alone, people, whatever you do.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
So I play a character with stability as one of his core values, and he's wary of/confused by change. Org and guild hoppers, changelings, gender benders, or even peeps like Maligorn who change their appearance every now and then are all subject to some degree of mistrust or confusion, because steadfast little Daraius sees fluidity as inconsistency. For instance, he refers to Lendren as 'he or she' because HONORS LENDREN one time said male, another time it said female, and despite being a huge fan of Lendren's work, Daraius just doesn't know what to make of that.
Fortunately Daraius is innately polite, so it's not likely to be an issue, but if this is unacceptable roleplay I'd appreciate if the rules regarding character attitudes were made clearer. I'm not trying to be obtuse, I just think that some of the guidelines here (especially with words like 'zi' and 'hir' being mentioned) are not necessarily common sense for everyone.
So I play a character with stability as one of his core values, and he's wary of/confused by change. Org and guild hoppers, changelings, gender benders, or even peeps like Maligorn who change their appearance every now and then are all subject to some degree of mistrust or confusion, because steadfast little Daraius sees fluidity as inconsistency. For instance, he refers to Lendren as 'he or she' because, despite being a huge fan of Lendren's work, HONORS LENDREN one time said male, another time it said female, and Daraius just doesn't know what to make of that.
Fortunately Daraius is innately polite, so it's not likely to be an issue, but if this is unacceptable roleplay I'd appreciate if the rules regarding character attitudes were made clearer. I'm not trying to be obtuse, I just think that some of the guidelines here (especially with words like 'zi' and 'hir' being mentioned) are not necessarily common sense for everyone.
Play from a sense of respect, and I have zero doubt you will do just fine.
Some of the issues ARE controversial for us, even if I don't really agree they are in the Lusternian world.
Really, rule #1 should be, if somebody asks you to stop ANYTHING, stop it.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Well, @Daraius, if you just be polite you should never really run into an issue with this. If you want to learn more about the most neutral ways to refer to someone (could be interesting to see in Hallifax, since they're very scientific and organised about classifying things), I'd suggest checking out a few articles online and then approaching some other people in Hallifax for a discussion, bringing what you learned into play!
Your RP is in no way unacceptable, at least from the limited interaction I've had with you and from what I've heard of others saying about you. As long as your character has RP behind it, and you have no malicious OOC feelings behind your character, I don't believe anyone will end up on the bad end of a snub. Still, these things we talk about on the forums are things that make good conversations. For instance, there are certain Magnagorans I know of who don't like to be referred to as male or female, and some that are really confused on gender as a whole. If you don't go around spouting offencive slurs and making a total boob of yourself, I can't see any reason why it would end badly!
And don't worry about appearing obtuse or people thinking poorly of you, everyone started at a point where they said, "Zi? Hir? What's that?!" If you don't ask questions, you'll never learn. And anyone reading this who might be confused is always free to message me about gender neutrality, terms, or anything else you might be confused about. I'm not the most knowledgeable person in the world on the subject, but I have studied it for a good bit and am willing to give it to you with a more human perspective than article after article on WIkipedia.
Good post Estarra. Honestly I am more bewildered at the need for such a post. You don't need to agree, like or respect everyone (I am old school and believe respect is earned) but being polite and giving people common courtesy should be a given.
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
Even if you're like me and aren't familiar with new-fangled pronouns and such, and know exactly one trans person outside of online, it's not hard to simply be polite.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Apologies if these have been covered already, but I've got questions on the topic.
Historically, english has used 'he' as the default singular third-person. If that's an insult or disrespectful, then we need a different default. They is one option, but it's not really singular. It is another option, but apparently that's hella insulting. My normal answer is to just use a singular they, but that makes conjugation weird and it's generally nonoptimal. What's the good solution?
It's been made pretty clear that people ought to be referred to by whichever pronoun they prefer. It's also been made clear that 'it' is insulting. What about for those who identify as an 'it'? For a term to be insulting, it has to be an insult. Can those two things both be true without discriminating? Obviously if the issue is simply being disrespectful then hey whatever, but y'know.
Expanding on the previous: why is it disrespectful to misgender someone? I can't see how one can consider being called male or female problematic without calling being male or female problematic. Frankly, I'd go so far as to consider it an extension of internalized sexism. Outside of medical and potentially romantic situations, gender should be simply irrelevant. Making accuracy necessary instead increases the awareness of any difference. In an ideal world, we could reach both perfect awareness and perfect irrelevance, but as it stands the two push opposite.
Yeah... the singular "they" has been in use since like the 16th century.
What's more interesting is that people are so opposed to using "they" and yet it's actually completely natural for us to use it the moment that gender is unknown. If you don't think about it too much most people apparently just use "they" until they can specify a gender.
Also as far as misgendering goes, this can receive a wide variety of responses.
One person I know laughs at it a little and she says it's because those people are referring to someone who doesn't exist.
Another person I know while kinda quietly correct people when they misgender them.
I was at a queer conference one year which is a kinda smallish group so everyone's friends. Someone made a motion to make a male the "princess of the conference" which he laughed about and accepted.
Someone else made a similar motion but accidentally said someone else's name instead of the person they intended to and that guy ran out of the room crying because even being accidentally misgendered is an extremely triggering experience for him.
So yeah, best bet is to step gently around the whole gender thing, especially cause generally speaking it's just not any of your business.
One thing I would love to see in game though would be the option to be neither. Though, to my knowledge this apparently means changing a Boolean to something else. (I asked when I didn't want my dweller to have a gender.)
I've been guilty of calling people who have changed genders by the gender they were when I met them. I never really thought about it being hurtful. I shall try to do better though, and call people by the gender they wish to be.
I've been guilty of calling people who have changed genders by the gender they were when I met them. I never really thought about it being hurtful. I shall try to do better though, and call people by the gender they wish to be.
Really, the most prominent ones I can think of (Lendren and Nejii, but I was Seren way too long, I'm sure there are others) didn't have transgender complaints ever, so I don't think they care. For them, it seemed to be far more of a novelty RP thing. Lendren had some amazing RP lore about changelings, actually, and why his character never took offense.
I think it boils down to, if somebody says "stop, I'm not comfortable with this" or something similar, just F-ing stop. If they don't give a damn, explore that RP all you want. Just RP with people, not at people, and nobody's going to have any issues, I think.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Speaking of gender issues, I recently finished reading an interesting fantasy trilogy that starts with the book, The Bone Doll's Twin by Lynn Flewelling. The story is that so long as the land is ruled by a woman of the royal line, it will be prosperous. So the King has killed all female descendants so he can be the ruler. To protect the last female of the line, magicians cast a spell that switched the gender of a pair of male and female twins. The male child died but the female grew up in a man's body, not knowing his/her destiny was to one day reclaim his/her true gender and become Queen.
Speaking of gender issues, I recently finished reading an interesting fantasy trilogy that starts with the book, The Bone Doll's Twin by Lynn Flewelling. The story is that so long as the land is ruled by a woman of the royal line, it will be prosperous. So the King has killed all female descendants so he can be the ruler. To protect the last female of the line, magicians cast a spell that switched the gender of a pair of male and female twins. The male child died but the female grew up in a man's body, not knowing his/her destiny was to one day reclaim his/her true gender and become Queen.
I had to go and look it up as I thought it was older than it turned out to be. I had originally picked it up after reading some of her Nightrunner Series. Which was fairly popular for a time (which also looks like she's added books to). I assume I picked it up when first released since I didn't know it was part of a trilogy.
In Mud2 there is a spell that switches the gender of the target. Even though it has a horrible chance of failing (and cursing the caster with a dreadfully long sleep) I can't even remember what my ``preferred'' gender is there, let alone what the current gender of my character is.
Comments
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Of course, OOC, absolutely, this is unacceptable, and the harrassment should be punished accordingly. No question.
Historically, english has used 'he' as the default singular third-person. If that's an insult or disrespectful, then we need a different default. They is one option, but it's not really singular. It is another option, but apparently that's hella insulting. My normal answer is to just use a singular they, but that makes conjugation weird and it's generally nonoptimal. What's the good solution?
It's been made pretty clear that people ought to be referred to by whichever pronoun they prefer. It's also been made clear that 'it' is insulting. What about for those who identify as an 'it'? For a term to be insulting, it has to be an insult. Can those two things both be true without discriminating? Obviously if the issue is simply being disrespectful then hey whatever, but y'know.
Expanding on the previous: why is it disrespectful to misgender someone? I can't see how one can consider being called male or female problematic without calling being male or female problematic. Frankly, I'd go so far as to consider it an extension of internalized sexism. Outside of medical and potentially romantic situations, gender should be simply irrelevant. Making accuracy necessary instead increases the awareness of any difference. In an ideal world, we could reach both perfect awareness and perfect irrelevance, but as it stands the two push opposite.
II. If someone identifies as an 'it' and chooses to be addressed as such, then no disrespect can come from using what they choose (at least to them). Should someone outside the situation find offence in it, approaching either party would quickly clear up the matter.
III. Internalised misogyny and homophobia is the biggest problem, there. When I was younger I was called 'girl' and 'she' all the time by homophobic bigots who wished to offend me as deeply as possible, and it did hurt. It cut me to the core, because I wasn't a girl.* I was a boy, and just because I liked boys they wanted to put a completely different reality on me that I wasn't comfortable with. They did it maliciously, knowing it would hurt. After 'girl' and 'she' got old, the traditional sissy, p***y, f****t, et. all began to follow.
That's the problem with misgendering. It starts off easy but easily drops into terrible slurs that can cause people to hate themselves for being who they are. While I don't have the firsthand experience, one of my close friends, who happened to be a lesbian, committed suicide because everywhere she went people would call her terrible, terrible names and assault her physically and mentally every day just because she didn't conform to traditional 'ladylike' standards. Now she's gone from this world.
Misgendering itself is not an insult, but intentional misgendering is. It's a vicious tactic used by awful people to turn you against yourself up to the point where it's unbearable. I'm lucky in that I found people who accept me for who I am and helped (and are still helping) me recover, but not everyone has that type of support. If you look at me, I'll look like one of the happiest, most care-free people you could find. I'm still scarred on the inside, though, and there are people I can never look in the face again because of what they've said.
Hope this was able to answer your questions.
*I hope this isn't seen as a claim that women are inferior by any means. When you're fighting to be accepted as a normal little boy, being misgendered as a girl is one of the most monumentally insulting things someone can do.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Maligorn, even if informed about Mysrai's situation, would still intentionally refer to the thing he considers an abomination as "it", just as he would to Morgfyre. Maybe even to their face. Call me crazy, but I think bigotry is part of Hallifaxian (and I daresay Magnagoran and Celestian) RP. Obviously I wouldn't do this OOC, but Maligorn would not respect Mys enough to refer to Them as They wanted to be referred to. What I'm asking is where do I draw the line here, because I don't want to be agitating anyone's feelings OOC. Agitated feelings IC are a-OK with me though. Bring on the zaps.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Really, rule #1 should be, if somebody asks you to stop ANYTHING, stop it.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
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