Gender and Respect

Estarra

Male players inhabit female characters, and female players inhabit male characters. My attitude has always been to refer to a character by the pronoun of their character's gender. If you are privileged to know the player behind such a character, it is not only a gross OOC transgression to refer to the player's gender but also downright rude. It is no great secret that I am male IRL and play Estarra as female, but I take great insult when Estarra is not referred to as female. That's who she is! That's who I am in this reality of Lusternia!

While this has always been my attitude, society has evolved faster than I can keep up. Discussions of genderfluidity, cisgender, pangender, bigender and asexuality has made my stance on character gender seem quaint. It can be downright confusing when it comes to pronouns and how not to offend. I get it. And this comes from someone who has three very close transgender friends (both MTF and FTM) and who knows quite a few more! BTW, one thing I know for sure: never refer to someone as "it". It's not funny. In fact, it is bigoted.

That said, there is one thing we can all do that is pretty simple. Treat others with respect. It takes no great effort to refer to someone by the pronoun of their choice. You don't have to understand it or change your politics or religious beliefs. You just have to respect that other person's reality just as you hope they'll respect yours. This should make it easy in-game where we can choose our gender or even change it. But often others who don't understand how serious issues of gender are to people can be cruel or insensitive, making jokes or just being downright mean. I urge you all to rise above it. If we find issues of gender harassment in-game, we will take it seriously.

Eritheyl

I'm embarrassed for certain people that this post had to be made, but kudos, @Estarra.

Marcella

And here I thought it was valid RP to call Mysrai it, and Mysrai just gets offended because 'it' implies the singular when Mysrai is a bunch of things all at once. Lord *and* lady, after all, and all of that such. Them can be used for plural, so...

Camberre

I concur with Marcella.

Also, it's actually very awkward to some that an.... ungendered person would actually touch them regularly, as Mysrai does. As male or female. Quite a few people aren't comfortable with that in an IC fashion (I'm fine with it, though I was always ignored by 'Them' until I left). I've 'd Esty though for ages. And Esty knows that.

Arix

I wonder who this post was aimed at...

But yes, if you want to be called he, she, they or whatever, I'll call you that as long as I know it's your preference

Rialorm

Marcella said:

And here I thought it was valid RP to call Mysrai it, and Mysrai just gets offended because 'it' implies the singular when Mysrai is a bunch of things all at once. Lord *and* lady, after all, and all of that such. Them can be used for plural, so...

To me it seems this is more about what was said OOC rather than IC. It could do for clarification though, if it is considered ok to be disrespectful to a Divine in pure IC manner. Granted of course by doing such you do take the risk of a reaction which may result in zapping or magotting. Suppose it also matters what degree of disrespect, there are some slurs for example which would never be ok even purely IC.

Ventidius

Personally I dont care about whatever you identify with just make sure I know beforehand before you take it to @estarra or i will punch you in the face on general principle. A lot of the time, people assume its our job to predict this sort of thing when its up to them to tell us. Thats all i ask.

Mysrai

Thanks, Est. 

For the record, the approach I chose with Mysrai when it comes to the gender stuff is to politely correct once, and ask my Order to do the same. Generally trying to be directly in someone's face about what the deity's gender identity is right off the bat tends to be pretty counterproductive, and unfun for both sides of the equation. 

Shaddus

Camberre said:

I concur with Marcella.

Also, it's actually very awkward to some that an.... ungendered person would actually touch them regularly, as Mysrai does. As male or female. Quite a few people aren't comfortable with that in an IC fashion (I'm fine with it, though I was always ignored by 'Them' until I left). I've 'd Esty though for ages. And Esty knows that.

I'm somewhat sure there's a difference between ungendered and all-gendered. A couch is ungendered. Someone whose gender shifts might be all-gendered. Further, I feel that referring to another person as "it" seems to have a bit of a derisive tone to it. If you're uncomfortable with another person touching you regardless of their gender or lack thereof, I suggest you just respectfully speak to that person about it.

If their touching you disturbs you because you can't place their gender in your carefully labeled pair of boxes, that's your problem.

Enyalida

I feel like it's also okay RP... as long as the 'callee' or 'victim' is categorically okay with it, and it's treated sensitively - which is definitely hard to do. Otherwise, it's one of those things that it's okay to put limits on IC, as it easily can cross into harassment 

Also, the 'Female Leaders of Lusternia' will come beat you up, like we did to that one pickup artist character.

Maligorn

Marcella said:

And here I thought it was valid RP to call Mysrai it, and Mysrai just gets offended because 'it' implies the singular when Mysrai is a bunch of things all at once. Lord *and* lady, after all, and all of that such. Them can be used for plural, so...

Maligorn calls Mysrai "it" all the time in-character. He thinks Mysrai is an abomination, but it's certainly not because of the gender thing. Gender things and sexuality things don't exist in Lusternia, in my mind. He just thinks Mysrai is a thing from the Void that needs to be exterminated. Has nothing to do with gender. Is that not okay?

Shaddus

Half joking here, but I've never seen a god's genitals. For all we know, they're different than ours, and their classification of male and female are different than ours.

Kagato

Kagato is kind of confused how to refer to Mysrai, to be perfectly honest, and as a result refers to Mysrai as "S/He" when necessary >_>

Mysrai

Maligorn said:

Marcella said:

And here I thought it was valid RP to call Mysrai it, and Mysrai just gets offended because 'it' implies the singular when Mysrai is a bunch of things all at once. Lord *and* lady, after all, and all of that such. Them can be used for plural, so...

Maligorn calls Mysrai "it" all the time in-character. He thinks Mysrai is an abomination, but it's certainly not because of the gender thing. Gender things and sexuality things don't exist in Lusternia, in my mind. He just thinks Mysrai is a thing from the Void that needs to be exterminated. Has nothing to do with gender. Is that not okay?

Mainly, I wouldn't worry about it unless someone asks you to change your use of pronouns or you're dealing with Mysrai directly (in which case you can ask Them). See above, re: jumping down people's throat when they simply don't know.

Selenity

I have written, rewritten, and deleted what I've written about twelve times for this thread.

I'm just going to sum up what I'm comfortable with saying in bullet points:

• Thank you for this post, @Estarra, and for letting a non-binary-gendered character like Mysrai exist
• @Mysrai, thank you for making your character the way you have and being respectful in their depictions on being non-binary-gendered
• For everyone else, if you're not sure of someone's gender and are trying to refer to them in the third person, call them 'they'. Alternatively, ask them. They may be initially offended, but it'll likely help in the end. Do not guess.
• I myself am fond of Spivak pronouns but you should speak to whomever the transgender person is in question, your mileage may vary.

Ventidius

Shaddus said:

Half joking here, but I've never seen a god's genitals. For all we know, they're different than ours, and their classification of male and female are different than ours.

I got told Gods had no genitals because they cannot reproduce. I'm unsure if they could before the Song of Creation got munched, or if they never could, but Divine are born on Cosmic planes. They didn't need genitals.

Explains most of their short tempers. Not being able to have a bit of how's your father or a wank

Enyalida

They certainly don't (have to) reproduce by bumping organic parts together. Most of the gods only have organic parts when they feel like it, after all. 

Shaddus

Not sure if I should like Vent's post, or lol at it. The forums need an LOL button.

Elanorwen

Shaddus said:

Half joking here, but I've never seen a god's genitals. For all we know, they're different than ours, and their classification of male and female are different than ours.

-image snipped for length-

This reminds me of Discworld and the Long Man... where the runes describing it could be roughly translated as... "I have a great big tonker!"

Ciaran

Shaddus said:

I'm somewhat sure there's a difference between ungendered and all-gendered. A couch is ungendered. 

False, couches are female. Ask any Spanish person.

Elanorwen

Ciaran said:

Shaddus said:

I'm somewhat sure there's a difference between ungendered and all-gendered. A couch is ungendered. 

False, couches are female. Ask any Spanish person.

False. They're male. Ask any French person.

Delphas

Ciaran said:

Shaddus said:

I'm somewhat sure there's a difference between ungendered and all-gendered. A couch is ungendered. 

False, couches are female. Ask any Spanish person.

Yes, welcome to the wonderful world of English, which uses Natural Gender.. which is quickly proving itself somewhat lacking in accommodating many of these concepts.  Holy closet, Batman! Within my own lifetime I've seen these concepts go from taboo to dinner-table.  We certainly live in interesting times, which hopefully won't be too hard for most people to come to grips with.  I don't really pay it any mind, in all honesty.  If someone prefers ``she'' or ``he'' or ``whatever'' then why should it cause me any problems? I envy the person who has so few problems they need to go out look for more problems.

I hope whomever triggered this thread has come to realize their error.  If not? Well, back in my day if someone spouted out enough garbage then eventually some decent person would pop them in the mouth.  The next day the garbage-spouting person would make an apology and claim they had too much to drink.  After a few days no one would even remember the incident.  Hopefully it isn't banhammer time, but patient explaining will resolve matters.  That or a fat lip.  Whichever.

Ssaliss

Is that how footrests are made?

Aerotan

Ssaliss said:

Is that how footrests are made?

Well, you see, when a sofa and a coffee table love each other very much, they invite uncle Shaddus over with his pantograph, and...

Shaddus

With Shaddus, there's always more area for love furniture making

Alary

Thank you for this post @Estarra. And I second the post about thanking for for having Divine like @Mysrai exist. While I've never actually encountered nastiness in reference to my OOC gender preferences, I know Alary's own take on gender IC confuses and sometimes upsets a lot of other people. As one of the (I assume few) characters to constantly utilize a gilded mirror, it's definitely not the norm for characters in the game. It's quite fine IC, but I can't imagine anyone getting so up in arms OOC over it. But then again I tend to be pretty naive and spoiled because everyone I know closely is totally okay with the whole non-binary thing. 

I'd also like to be thankful that such an artifact exists and let's me explore non-binary gender within the game as a player. It's definitely a wonderful thing. 

-ramble ramble-

Ventidius

Enyalida said:

They certainly don't (have to) reproduce by bumping organic parts together. Most of the gods only have organic parts when they feel like it, after all. 

So they can grow genitals at will? Kinky. What about 'other' things, like some action at the tradesman's entrance instead of the front door.

(I'd like to mention although this and my previous post seemed geared towards humour, I take the topic's issue very seriously and agree wholeheartedly with Estarra's point. Prejudice is dumb.)

Tremula

Ventidius said:

Personally I dont care about whatever you identify with just make sure I know beforehand before you take it to @estarra or i will punch you in the face on general principle. A lot of the time, people assume its our job to predict this sort of thing when its up to them to tell us. Thats all i ask.

If someone's going to take it to Estarra, they're not going to do it just because you accidentally misgendered them once. If I accidentally refer to someone as the wrong gender (usually because of male/female sounding names and my laziness preventing me from HONOURing them) they'll usually correct me instantly. Then I apologise and make a note. If someone's taken you to Estarra, it's a case of you intentionally misgendering them and causing them grief.

No one is asking you to predict what someone's gender is, they're asking you to not be an idiot about it. If you're unsure about someone's pronouns, bleeping ask them about it. Telling someone, "Oh, I prefer to be reffered to as a (s)he." is a lot easier than going to Estarra about it because you refuse to acknowledge who they are, and what they identify as. And there's absolutely no reason to expect them to just jump out of the woodwork and scream at you, "CALL ME ZIE, I IDENTIFY AS ZIE, NOTHING ELSE." Gender is a personal subject that doesn't get brought up and can be very touchy for people who have had struggles we don't know about. Don't be a dick, just ask.

I'm grateful that Estarra brought this up, because it's not just something that can be swept under the rug. Deliberately misgendering someone is considered abuse, and people are literally dying because of it. Any sort of mental abuse needs to be taken to someone in authority, or someone you trust, whether it's Estarra here in Lusternia or a close friend IRL.

Just ask, folks. That's all I ask.

/soapbox

Aerotan

Tremula said:

Ventidius said:

Personally I dont care about whatever you identify with just make sure I know beforehand before you take it to @estarra or i will punch you in the face on general principle. A lot of the time, people assume its our job to predict this sort of thing when its up to them to tell us. Thats all i ask.

If someone's going to take it to Estarra, they're not going to do it just because you accidentally misgendered them once. If I accidentally refer to someone as the wrong gender (usually because of male/female sounding names and my laziness preventing me from HONOURing them) they'll usually correct me instantly. Then I apologise and make a note. If someone's taken you to Estarra, it's a case of you intentionally misgendering them and causing them grief.

No one is asking you to predict what someone's gender is, they're asking you to not be an idiot about it. If you're unsure about someone's pronouns, bleeping ask them about it. Telling someone, "Oh, I prefer to be reffered to as a (s)he." is a lot easier than going to Estarra about it because you refuse to acknowledge who they are, and what they identify as. And there's absolutely no reason to expect them to just jump out of the woodwork and scream at you, "CALL ME ZIE, I IDENTIFY AS ZIE, NOTHING ELSE." Gender is a personal subject that doesn't get brought up and can be very touchy for people who have had struggles we don't know about. Don't be a dick, just ask.

I'm grateful that Estarra brought this up, because it's not just something that can be swept under the rug. Deliberately misgendering someone is considered abuse, and people are literally dying because of it. Any sort of mental abuse needs to be taken to someone in authority, or someone you trust, whether it's Estarra here in Lusternia or a close friend IRL.

Just ask, folks. That's all I ask.

/soapbox

Not limited to names in-game or non-face-to-face interactions. I have a week's growth of beard right now, and I sound like I've been gargling sandpaper and grizzly bears because of the weather, but I still get misgendered as "ma'am" on a fairly regular basis by coworkers.

Granted, I don't mind, but still. Not limited to cyberspace and ambiguous names.

Enyalida

I get misgendered all the time at work, but it's kind of cute when some daft old head does it.

Vivet

Shaddus said:

If their touching you disturbs you because you can't place their gender in your carefully labeled pair of boxes, that's your problem.

Eh, careful with wording. I feel like it's fine to be repulsed by touch for any reason whatsoever. Some people just don't want to be touched at all. Granted, whether or not it's going to be respected in a world where people will murder your face at any given moment is another thing, but we should take care where we draw the lines (and why).