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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Xenthos said:

Lief said

So many players on our side really were crushed by the outcome more than usual because of the lag. This is a lovely morale boost and I'm not sure how it OOC takes away from the winning side. I am 100% sympathetic to the IC, as again, I'm not sure how Lief will react. But I really do feel that OOC it is a phenomenal gesture that our current admin will take responsibility and work to improve it for next year.

I think others have said, throughout this thread, why it diminishes the winning side... but there are a lot of posts at this point.
Basically, boil it down to this.
Two teams make it to the finals. Whether it be the World Series, Stanley Cup, World Cup- you have two teams out on the field with a huge amount invested, emotionally, in the challenge.
The field is a ruined mess. The game isn't called, but everyone is running, slipping, sliding through the mud.
Instead of calling the game, though, on it goes.
It is hard-fought, but when the time ticks down there is a winner. The cup is given to the winning team. But then, a couple of days later, the sport's authorities decree that they are making a second cup, exactly the same, and providing it to the other team.
Imagine the feelings of the first at this point, the emotions. This is the ultimate prize of their sport. They won it. Circumstances entirely beyond their control affected the outcome, but because the game continued regardless they pushed on despite that... the joy, the euphoria of overcoming the odds and making the comeback win.
And now, they are told that the thing they competed for is just being duplicated and handed over to the other team- the thing they fought so hard to attain, the recognition that they prevailed, is now diminished to a participation trophy.
That is why it feels like it takes away.
Is it the right call in the context of a game that is simply not in the category of e-sports? Possibly- if they are attempting to convert the game to be something less competitive, less us v. them, then sure. But that is not how the event was billed, or until this post was made two days later. Up until that point the event was the ultimate challenge, Lusternia's version of the World Series. Acknowledging that, and accounting for that as well, is fair.

I have been reading along, and I fully read that people are upset. I don't understand it because this game isn't one where the prize is IRL money that is on the line - your livelihood isn't potentially at stake, like it could be in your example. Like someone else posted, Ixion will always have an asterisk by his name and Parhelion won't. The real victory is yours, and I am hopeful that the event reflects that, but I really do feel it is in part victory over the lag, not over the other side.

Holding this event is a gesture of kindness and goodwill, especially when the TF we received felt hollow even to me (I realize it was meant to be an apology, and after things cooled a bit but before the announcement I could understand it for what it was, but while people were reeling OOC, it unintentionally hurt people.)

From my understanding, the call was made so delayed because of OOC circumstances and a full day's driving between the end of Ascension and settling in enough to try to figure out the best thing to do. I do understand how the delay in a decision might leave people feeling confused and hurt, but that sounds like something where real life interfered as it can do. They were working with a lot of precedence as well - I personally am on the side that thinks it would have been most fair to delay as well, as I believe I remember you being, but I imagine it's hard to make that snap decision in the moment. I am, however, grateful that they aren't saying "Well, hindsight is 20/20, nothing we can do now, sorry kids".

I had been seeing people speaking to why they were upset OOC - because their characters' IC motivations were being trampled on, and I don't think that's how the event will play out. I wanted to post to express my point of view pertaining to that, as Lief was secretly breathing a sigh of relief that despite giving it her all, Creation was ultimately protected by someone who wasn't undead.

Lief

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Lief said

So many players on our side really were crushed by the outcome more than usual because of the lag. This is a lovely morale boost and I'm not sure how it OOC takes away from the winning side. I am 100% sympathetic to the IC, as again, I'm not sure how Lief will react. But I really do feel that OOC it is a phenomenal gesture that our current admin will take responsibility and work to improve it for next year.

I think others have said, throughout this thread, why it diminishes the winning side... but there are a lot of posts at this point.

Basically, boil it down to this.

Two teams make it to the finals. Whether it be the World Series, Stanley Cup, World Cup- you have two teams out on the field with a huge amount invested, emotionally, in the challenge.

The field is a ruined mess. The game isn't called, but everyone is running, slipping, sliding through the mud.

Instead of calling the game, though, on it goes.

It is hard-fought, but when the time ticks down there is a winner. The cup is given to the winning team. But then, a couple of days later, the sport's authorities decree that they are making a second cup, exactly the same, and providing it to the other team.

Imagine the feelings of the first at this point, the emotions. This is the ultimate prize of their sport. They won it. Circumstances entirely beyond their control affected the outcome, but because the game continued regardless they pushed on despite that... the joy, the euphoria of overcoming the odds and making the comeback win.

And now, they are told that the thing they competed for is just being duplicated and handed over to the other team- the thing they fought so hard to attain, the recognition that they prevailed, is now diminished to a participation trophy.

That is why it feels like it takes away.

Is it the right call in the context of a game that is simply not in the category of e-sports? Possibly- if they are attempting to convert the game to be something less competitive, less us v. them, then sure. But that is not how the event was billed, or until this post was made two days later. Up until that point the event was the ultimate challenge, Lusternia's version of the World Series. Acknowledging that, and accounting for that as well, is fair.

Xenthos

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

My perspective is that Lief is wholesome.

Kethaera

Re: Real World Raves

Shulamit said:

Chubby cat's lumps were benign.

That's great news, I know you're relieved.

Alexandria

Re: Lusternian AMA

Esei said:

Most of that which disgruntles me is not really the lore itself, but rather how players outside Glomdoring treat the lore, especially if they have never played in it. Especially things with Brother Crow's aspects and tenets, primarily False Memory. It doesn't help that Glomdoring's supposed to be really secretive about its lore and has had bad raps in the past, so I can't exactly go "hey, you're wrong, and here's why", but that's more of a player-based problem.

That, and as Lief and Jolanthe mentioned before, how the fae are kind of really watered down, only really physically reminiscent of their real-life mythical counterparts. I also wish there were more wyrden fae that willingly chose the Wyrd rather than forced to be bound to it. I wish there were more household-type fae that protect things or places, Faethorn or otherwise.

Also, where are my non-binary Elder gods at? I know the original histories were made way back in... 2004 or earlier, and being non-binary was considered even more of a fad than it is now. Regardless, I really wish that in future lore that's revealed or otherwise implemented that we have more references to non-binary Elders (and NPCs; yes, I know that it's not in for NPCs yet, code-wise, but still! I can dream).

Without outing myself, I played a Glom a long while back and False Memory was absolutely my favorite Aspect.

I think every org has a teaching that gets misrepresented or misunderstood a lot, though. We're all propaganda machines IC, and the best way to get through to many characters is going to be to talk to them (tough with the secrecy thing) - and even then, only characters that actively try to learn other orgs' teachings and/or characters open to conversion are going to listen.

Lief

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Since voiding the outcome was a possibility for the event, the administration needed to cancel it before it was resolved, the earlier the better. Undoing the results of a competition simply isn't done unless there is cheating by one of the involved parties. The irony is not lost on me.

If the admin's position is that it will be better for the game in the long run, and less people will quit/retire/be bitter, I get it. But please don't try to act as if it's fair. What would have been fair would have been to cancel the event, but since it couldn't be done after the fact, the next best thing was to try to compensate both sides of the competition. The problem is you forgot to compensate my former alliance. Oreal's position, as I understand it, is that ascending Choros is the compensation, but he doesn't seem to realize that Choros' ascension is only a compensation if he is nullifying the fact that Choros won the ascension event.

So by my understanding, winning the event was made impossible by active admin intervention, something completely out of the hands of anyone within our alliance. Can you see why this is not well received?

I don't even know why I'm posting here. Old habits die hard I guess. I'll try to have this be my last post.

Enjoy the aftershock ascension events. I know the admin bust their asses to make this game work, I know they're trying their honest best to make amends. There is absolutely no question that there is no malign intent or bias from Aonia, Oreal, or any of the other Godmin. I just think they've made a series of mistakes here that we as the aggrieved parties are failing to properly convey.

Ciaran

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

No, I wouldn't be, @Mboagn. But I also wouldn't be had it been the other way around - the questions around whether Choros would have been raised if it was reversed hold little meaning for me. I am concerned that raising a second TA would be detrimental to the RP of the side that won the fight, as well as the IC significance of ascension. Given that Orael has said that they are looking at the RP reason for raising Ixion, I am hopeful that they will try to mitigate this.

Nelras

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

There are people who are being remarkably unpleasant about it on both sides. That is not what I was talking about. What I was talking about was the fact that people are taking this to mean that this is the motivation of everyone involved and that the only reason people would ever be against this is to grief. I do not appreciate being told that I hate someone OOC just because I am concerned about the effect this will have in game.

Furthermore, some of the OOC reasons I have heard were concerns that it devalues ascension, or that it will happen again, or that we are being told that the fight didn't count because of lag. These are not even aimed at Ixion.

Nelras

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

1. You have voided IC reasons for much of Celest and Glom. Please ensure this is reflected appropriately in whatever RP measure you take.

2. Swamp water did not somehow cheat or acted in bad faith as is being implied by some. Creeping was judged to be fair by Orael to one extent or another before the event. It works well within the spirit of the rules.

3. Speaking of, is heartstopping repeatedly to bypass insanity in an event where other methods of insanity reduction are purposely unactivated within the spirit of the rules?

Synl

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Please could people stop trying to conflate IC motivation with OOC toxicity? IC, Hallifax pretty much changed sides to fight against Ixion, and that is, from my understanding, part of Celest's RP as well as he is tainted. I can't comment on Glomdoring's RP as I haven't really been involved with it. There is nothing wrong with this, nor with the feeling that this is being taken away by Ixion also being ascended.

Now, I know that people are going to say that I am being toxic, and that I must hate Ixion OOC and that the whole thing with Hallifax was OOC (It wasn't. We just didn't have a reason to explain it IC to the people who were asking us about it). I wouldn't be surprised at this point if anyone who is against Ixion being ascended is automatically toxic for doing so. But no, I am against it because it means that our IC motivation for fighting is removed - Magnagora just wins even if we fight, even if we win, and therefore we lose. This is also why I don't feel that giving something additional to Parhelion, or to our alliance, would help. I am not going to try to change what is happening, it has already been decided that Ixion is going to get TA from this. All that I would ask in that regard is that, if at all possible, it is done in a way that doesn't leave our characters feeling that we were fighting for no reason. That, and that people stop declaring that anyone who is even slightly against this is toxic and detrimental to the game.

Nelras