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Jesus Christ Steingrim. Are you actively trying to drive people away?

Why is anyone agreeing to argue on @Enadonella's terms?? What in the absolute hell does any one player's prowess have to do with anything. You could argue the point on those terms, and deflate the outright bs on the basis of absurd claims, but why?

I'd love to see logs of you wrecking face as a post-nerf nihilist, by the way. That class was in a godawful spot.

Enadonella said:

Quitters gonna quit

We can't afford to have this attitude any more. Every player we lose is one too many.

@Deichtine The test server not being the proper game is relevant though - the whole point of letting people have access to all skillsets in the base game is that it becomes irrelevant whether your class, or anyone's class, is OP. Great, it is OP, then let's all play as it in the game! Or if it's not, then people can pick whichever class they think is strong. Having people test it out on the test server still will have us arguing about nerfing it, or buffing something else, or some such in the base game if they think it's strong on the test server.

You realise that using the exact same arguments after people literally said 'the worst thing about Glomdoring is that they keep using the exact same arguments all the time' is just reinforcing why people dislike you?

I suspect that the issue for a lot of players who are leaving isn't that they don't understand their skills and how these skills stack up in combat, but that they do. That said, combat help is always nice; let's just not assume that all Niwynne (or any other player) needs to be competitive is to just "understand their skills" and get good.

Think this one has run it's course too.

Something I haven't seen really touched upon in this discussion is the consequence of the goal that systems like these tend to be aiming for: making less tanky people less easy to blitz with numbers.

First, that's a good goal. Being smashed with numbers is rarely anyone's idea of a good time.

The point I'd like to raise is that the opposite becomes the case too: you also make the super tanky highly defensive people tankier as well. This is less desirable, because frankly most of those people are hard enough to kill even with numbers. It is my view that systems like these tend to need to be able to quantify the person's disadvantage somehow, and unfortunately while you can quantify character health/mitigation/etc, its much harder to quantify player experience/reflexes/paranoia (and the factors you can quantify are typically very easily gamed).

I don't have strong feelings either way on a system like this, but think this aspect is something which needs to be considered with any kind of move in that direction. In theory it benefits the majority, but in reality it tends to make the rich get richer.