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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

I think everyone can agree that, mechanically speaking, TA is no longer as important as it once was given the endgame changes. Therefore, any quibbling that people have at this point is mostly about the sense of achievement, and the RP ramifications of "victory" vs "defeat". I suspect that is why people have proposed having "no TAs" this year, as opposed to some inherent vendetta against Choros. (To be clear, I don't want to descend Parhelion, but I don't think that the people who suggest it are doing so out of spite, either.)

I'd like to hear what other people have to say about this. Specifically, I'd like to hear IHC members talk about the minimum that would make them feel better, and Shadowlight members talk about what things do or don't make their victory feel erased. I think we could all do with less moral accusations and more brainstorming.

Aramel

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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Orael said:

If you have a solution that makes both sides happy with the outcome, I'm all ears. I'm willing to listen to it and discuss it with Aonia and the other admin. Nobody's presented one though (I suppose besides descending Parhelion, but doesn't that then say that the 'winning' side didn't deserve to win?).

This solution is fair, yes, but I don't think it will do anything except make both sides equally unhappy about the outcome. Fair doesn't always mean best. And, when it comes to a competition, fair is entirely subjective anyways. That's why competitions have rules in place to define the parameters, and what to do if things go wrong (for example, rain delays), instead of making it up on the spot.

Some off-the-top-of-my-head ideas:

- Making Ixion a VA-like-Ascendant would be an option to say that it's different- basically, a TA without any free Domoth powers / domoth affiliation (but not org-locked). Would he be happy with that though? Possibly not.

- Giving Glom/Halli/Celest a minor Demigod power associated with some kind of combination / merging of Justice and Time? You only have access to it if part of those orgs, part of the nature of Choros' ascendance. Basically, this solution makes his winning more meaningful to us, while not diminishing Ixion's.

Xenthos

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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Hateful and toxic.. What more could be said than that? Always good to know what someone's true colors are though.

Sapphira +1
Maggy +1

Choros, you're loved. Unfortunately hateful people are just... really really loud.

Citinia

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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

If you have a solution that makes both sides happy with the outcome, I'm all ears. I'm willing to listen to it and discuss it with Aonia and the other admin. Nobody's presented one though (I suppose besides descending Parhelion, but doesn't that then say that the 'winning' side didn't deserve to win?).

I mean, at this point most of my ideas are RP ideas.

Given that this is the year of the timequake and alternate timelines, perhaps the RP justification can be that Ixion was somehow taken over by an alternate-timeline version of himself that did win the staff. That would allow him to become TA, while still distinguishing between that alternate timeline and the "prime" one in which Choros got to 3600 first.

Edit: free TA mechanics without the True Ascendant RP tag/namechange would make most of Shadowlight ok with it, I suspect, but I don't know how IHC would feel about it.

Aramel

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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Wowza. Can't believe you're willing to lose Parhelion just to stop Ixion...

Mboagn

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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

So your point is that we should make Glom/Celest/Halli happy by giving them two TA's and Mag/Gaudi/Seren are supposed to be happy with one TA? You are asking if giving your side two TA's is hurting them any more than you are hurt by giving them one TA?

I think the answer is yes, it hurts them more - you're getting two TA's and they're only getting one. It puts us back to square one.

With one TA each, you're on equal footing.

Orael

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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Hello again. I really wasn't going to post again, but it seems my post didn't sink into some people's heads. So first, I'll point over to my post really fast. https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/204348/#Comment_204348

However most notably I just have to state the obvious here really fast -Rancoura, how did you go from this

Rancoura said:

If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.

to this

Rancoura said:
If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did.

You just ran circles around yourself and didn't realize it. You've negated your argument while attempting to make an argument. How ANGRY would you and others have been if they said no one was winning, after all that effort? (Answer: Significantly more than anyone is now)

Moving on:

These are the things that people are doing. This is why it is so toxic. Everyone is taking this personally, and can't even formulate a coherent thought, much less present a meaningful argument.

All anyone can do is bash the administration, and tell them how stupid and inconsiderate they are.

(If you're not doing this, then I'm not talking to you. - It pains me that I know I have to put this bit in here. If you still think I'm talking about you, then I probably am.)

So since people seem to have missed it...

STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS

Most of us have had to deal with enough in our professional lives for years, and would rather help spare the Lusternia administration from it as much as possible. They deal with enough bitching and complaining about how they handle affairs regularly, without having to listen to most of this disparaging dribble.

p.s. Silvanus, nice post.

Citinia

3

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

@Orael said
Parhelion and Glom/Celest/Halli ended up the first to 3600, but we don't know if that was because of lag or if it was because they earned it

I think that this is the part that is making so many in Glom/Celest/Halli angry and dejected. People feel like they put in the work and won. People feel like they earned it. It's very disheartening for the admin to actually come out and say, "No, we don't know that you earned it" and modify the outcome of ascension as a result. This is, in fact, what people are unhappy about.

It was a win, by the rules of ascension. Would people have preferred a lag-free win? Sure. But it's not great when the administration comes out and says, "Hey, you won by the rules but that's not enough for us to think you actually earned it."

Edit: Ixion's ascension feels pretty set in stone to me at this point from what the admin are saying, but I encourage admin to take into account the feelings I described above. It's possible to give Ixion and people who support him the benefits that would make them happier, while respecting the feelings of the players who won by the rules as they were laid out ahead of time, and who feel like that should be acknowledged.

Aramel

6

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Synl said:
I think people who are arguing that is a special prize are way off base. Ixion will forever be marked as the TA*, and he cant even remove that mark going forward. Always felt bad about Dei and the crap she got for hers, gonna feel bad about Ixion too. Riiiiiip.

Agreed. So despite raising Ixion as a TA, the Equinox side will still forever have the true True Ascendant (Parhelion). It's still a win.

Mboagn

1

Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

They already acknowledged that they knew it was going to ruffle feathers any which way. From their assessment, this was the best solution out of a basket of bad solutions.

Mboagn

2