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Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
I write this post only in the hopes that it will help admin in the future. I have already retired Ciaran and I will not be returning to play Lusternia.
I tried to use Lusternia as a competitive outlet since a chronic injury to my ankle has taken away my ability to play competitive sports. I don't really play Lusternia for the roleplay, or for an escape from reality. I just enjoyed competing.
To that end, it has been made clear to me over the last week that one cannot simply play the game as it is and maximize success. Equally important to your actual actions in the game is your ability to 'work the refs' as it were. This isn't only with regard to the latest events, it also is a critique of the envoy system approach to game balance as a whole.
There has been a narrative woven over the last week that has gone largely uncontested. This narrative was woven on discord, on the forums, probably in game, probably on envoys, and likely in emails, issues and messages. I cannot say for sure about private channels.
That narrative revolves around the idea that IHC would have been able to win had it not been for the lag. That their winning the event was robbed of them because of the lag. It was at least implied that the sharing of ascension was in part due to the extremely competitive nature of the event. I could have contested this narrative, I SHOULD have had I ever considered that the whole outcome would be wiped away by the admin. It is my view, and the view of many of those who were involved in the inner circle of planning for ascension, that we likely would have done much better were it not for the lag. We had plans in place to bypass any fortress that IHC could have set up. I was set and had tested a pather to capture the staff anywhere on astral in under 0.5s, we had the whole alliance set to regroup on the leader quickly and efficiently, and so on. All of this went out of the window because of the lag. Our main leader, Snald was completely incapacitated. For the first 5 minutes of ascension I was stuck in the lag-queue (as I took to calling it) because my pather spammed into the lag and locked our whole alliance out of what should have been one of our main advantages, having a near optimal, if not completely optimized, staff runner.
All of these preparations were made in the competitive spirit. We put everything we could forward to win the event, then when faced with the extreme conditions of the event I didn't throw my hands up and say, this isn't FAIR! Anyone who was in our group chat can attest to the fact. I dug into my system, ripped out the parts of it that were spamming, re-wrote my pather quickly to increase the delays between commands, and we got to work trying to recover in the event.
We were faced with Ixion fortified in a meld with the lagbeast in full effect. We killed him some times, there was some back and forth, and IHC recaptured the staff. Ixion took to running from our group whenever we pushed in and escaped via empress to another node. Due to the lag, we had extreme difficulty regrouping and/or chasing to the next node, giving IHC a tremendous advantage with regard to racking up time while we were simply battling to get ourselves organized. Again, the lag very much leveled the playing field in terms of staff-running. It was far more important who was near the staff when it reset, than who was the faster runner. With 7 seal holders, this slanted the whole event moreso in IHC's favor. In a normal ascension it's a race between the fastest runner and the second fastest, the rest are mostly irrelevant.
In the end we managed to grab the staff, but they were still able to force Choros to drop it twice... We managed to get the staff and deny Ixion even a mere 4 more minutes of holding it, I was dealing with the lag just as much as the 6 other runners that IHC had to get the staff. We still did it.
I would have loved to have present the case for why it is not in the competitive spirit to raise Ixion as well, before the decision was met, but alas, I was not asked. Choros didn't know any of this, I don't harbor any ill-will toward him or his role in this decision, but it is a simple matter of fact that he wasn't involved in the planning and preparation on that level.
In the end, my voice was never heard nor sought out because I didn't wade into the arguments waged on discord/the forums/etc. This allowed a dubious at best narrative to continue to evolve unchecked. Whether the admin consider themselves to have been influenced by this narrative is beyond my knowledge, but from now on the assumption is that with a concerted campaign of 'working the refs', the entire outcome of an event can be altered.
I no longer have any interest in competing in Lusternia. I would have to be afraid that every victory may be relitigated and that I should make sure to post-factum argue why the outcome was justified. I hope that what happens in Lusternia in the future is more clearly bounded to what is done INSIDE of Lusternia the game. I don't know how other people feel about it, but arguing about everything on discord and the forums isn't fun.
That's not a game any more.
I tried to use Lusternia as a competitive outlet since a chronic injury to my ankle has taken away my ability to play competitive sports. I don't really play Lusternia for the roleplay, or for an escape from reality. I just enjoyed competing.
To that end, it has been made clear to me over the last week that one cannot simply play the game as it is and maximize success. Equally important to your actual actions in the game is your ability to 'work the refs' as it were. This isn't only with regard to the latest events, it also is a critique of the envoy system approach to game balance as a whole.
There has been a narrative woven over the last week that has gone largely uncontested. This narrative was woven on discord, on the forums, probably in game, probably on envoys, and likely in emails, issues and messages. I cannot say for sure about private channels.
That narrative revolves around the idea that IHC would have been able to win had it not been for the lag. That their winning the event was robbed of them because of the lag. It was at least implied that the sharing of ascension was in part due to the extremely competitive nature of the event. I could have contested this narrative, I SHOULD have had I ever considered that the whole outcome would be wiped away by the admin. It is my view, and the view of many of those who were involved in the inner circle of planning for ascension, that we likely would have done much better were it not for the lag. We had plans in place to bypass any fortress that IHC could have set up. I was set and had tested a pather to capture the staff anywhere on astral in under 0.5s, we had the whole alliance set to regroup on the leader quickly and efficiently, and so on. All of this went out of the window because of the lag. Our main leader, Snald was completely incapacitated. For the first 5 minutes of ascension I was stuck in the lag-queue (as I took to calling it) because my pather spammed into the lag and locked our whole alliance out of what should have been one of our main advantages, having a near optimal, if not completely optimized, staff runner.
All of these preparations were made in the competitive spirit. We put everything we could forward to win the event, then when faced with the extreme conditions of the event I didn't throw my hands up and say, this isn't FAIR! Anyone who was in our group chat can attest to the fact. I dug into my system, ripped out the parts of it that were spamming, re-wrote my pather quickly to increase the delays between commands, and we got to work trying to recover in the event.
We were faced with Ixion fortified in a meld with the lagbeast in full effect. We killed him some times, there was some back and forth, and IHC recaptured the staff. Ixion took to running from our group whenever we pushed in and escaped via empress to another node. Due to the lag, we had extreme difficulty regrouping and/or chasing to the next node, giving IHC a tremendous advantage with regard to racking up time while we were simply battling to get ourselves organized. Again, the lag very much leveled the playing field in terms of staff-running. It was far more important who was near the staff when it reset, than who was the faster runner. With 7 seal holders, this slanted the whole event moreso in IHC's favor. In a normal ascension it's a race between the fastest runner and the second fastest, the rest are mostly irrelevant.
In the end we managed to grab the staff, but they were still able to force Choros to drop it twice... We managed to get the staff and deny Ixion even a mere 4 more minutes of holding it, I was dealing with the lag just as much as the 6 other runners that IHC had to get the staff. We still did it.
I would have loved to have present the case for why it is not in the competitive spirit to raise Ixion as well, before the decision was met, but alas, I was not asked. Choros didn't know any of this, I don't harbor any ill-will toward him or his role in this decision, but it is a simple matter of fact that he wasn't involved in the planning and preparation on that level.
In the end, my voice was never heard nor sought out because I didn't wade into the arguments waged on discord/the forums/etc. This allowed a dubious at best narrative to continue to evolve unchecked. Whether the admin consider themselves to have been influenced by this narrative is beyond my knowledge, but from now on the assumption is that with a concerted campaign of 'working the refs', the entire outcome of an event can be altered.
I no longer have any interest in competing in Lusternia. I would have to be afraid that every victory may be relitigated and that I should make sure to post-factum argue why the outcome was justified. I hope that what happens in Lusternia in the future is more clearly bounded to what is done INSIDE of Lusternia the game. I don't know how other people feel about it, but arguing about everything on discord and the forums isn't fun.
That's not a game any more.
Ciaran
19
Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
Hi! I've been hiding in the back round for a bit on this. I agree with Snaldo and Xenthos on this one.
I've sat and sat and sat today trying to figure out how to word my feelings over everything that happened over the past few days.
YES, people are upset. They have a right to be.
(Shall we get the parts out I'm nervous about saying before I duck out of it? I mean, its silly I should be so nervous about sharing a simple personal opinion, right?)
A group of people and I have been chatting almost all day about how many things are done specifically for a certain player here. Rules ignored, or simply changed. Requirements dismissed, and now this. I read the response to war. Its the same scenario. There was an issue game side, it effected BOTH sides. But the seal went on, no changes were made to the event. Our side worked hard and still won in the end, however they were made to work harder for it. My confidence that the same outcome would have been done if say Malarious would have been in the same boat have dwindled. Our side doesn't complain half as much through losses, I hardly ever see anyone of them accuse the other side of cheating (bug calls aside) and yet its constantly being thrown in our faces. Its demoralizing over time.
Now. Lag, yes that was the issue. Both sides had it, both sides fought through it. One side won in a huge upset. Things happen. I have to look at this the same way I look at sports because seals are competitive in nature. You want them in order to get to Ascension, you have to earn them. In American football, do they change the outcome of a game because a player slips on some ice and breaks their ankle? No. In some way, that is what has been done here. We all went to the Super Bowl of Lusternia, and it was a GREAT game. But one side lost, the other side won. However, they've both been given the rings. The side that "lost" will now be given a special event in their honour and the player they "supported" will now be gifted a unique TA title, while the guy the "winning" side supported gets treated like every other Joe Smith that came before him.
Do I feel that both sides should be compensated for putting up with a clear cut issue- yes. However, rewarding the side who did in fact "lose" with the grand prize while leaving the side that did indeed win here the same prize and a fist bump for doing so well doesn't seem fair or reasonable. As it was put (last night, was it?) it is a huge slap in the face, however unsurprising in the end. I mean, this is the same side who persistently remained calm in 4x2. This same side who took being told to "shut up and stop guilt tripping us" on the discs about it on their shoulders. We still won quakes, we still participated in villages, heck we did pretty alright given what we had. I mean, for heavens sake Glom's epic was bugged for how many months before it got noticed? What quest had been openly talked about being borked, but remained unnoticed until Glomdoring was able to benefit from it?
Guys, we get it, most of us can take a hint.
There is one thing that everyone who participated in this event spent that we can't get back. Time. Ironic as that is. Time figuring out a plan, time figuring out how to best use skills in order to get a decent shot at things, and time implementing them and ensuring everyone knew what to do. Not to mention the countless credits / essence spent in order to acquire anything that would help our side out. Are us everyday people in the end the ones who benefit from winning? No. But as with what is unraveling in the world around us- every day people make the world run. Perhaps instead of rewarding the two, "winner" or "loser" a reward should be offered to those who helped make the event happen.
Edit: I found a typo!
I've sat and sat and sat today trying to figure out how to word my feelings over everything that happened over the past few days.
YES, people are upset. They have a right to be.
(Shall we get the parts out I'm nervous about saying before I duck out of it? I mean, its silly I should be so nervous about sharing a simple personal opinion, right?)
A group of people and I have been chatting almost all day about how many things are done specifically for a certain player here. Rules ignored, or simply changed. Requirements dismissed, and now this. I read the response to war. Its the same scenario. There was an issue game side, it effected BOTH sides. But the seal went on, no changes were made to the event. Our side worked hard and still won in the end, however they were made to work harder for it. My confidence that the same outcome would have been done if say Malarious would have been in the same boat have dwindled. Our side doesn't complain half as much through losses, I hardly ever see anyone of them accuse the other side of cheating (bug calls aside) and yet its constantly being thrown in our faces. Its demoralizing over time.
Now. Lag, yes that was the issue. Both sides had it, both sides fought through it. One side won in a huge upset. Things happen. I have to look at this the same way I look at sports because seals are competitive in nature. You want them in order to get to Ascension, you have to earn them. In American football, do they change the outcome of a game because a player slips on some ice and breaks their ankle? No. In some way, that is what has been done here. We all went to the Super Bowl of Lusternia, and it was a GREAT game. But one side lost, the other side won. However, they've both been given the rings. The side that "lost" will now be given a special event in their honour and the player they "supported" will now be gifted a unique TA title, while the guy the "winning" side supported gets treated like every other Joe Smith that came before him.
Do I feel that both sides should be compensated for putting up with a clear cut issue- yes. However, rewarding the side who did in fact "lose" with the grand prize while leaving the side that did indeed win here the same prize and a fist bump for doing so well doesn't seem fair or reasonable. As it was put (last night, was it?) it is a huge slap in the face, however unsurprising in the end. I mean, this is the same side who persistently remained calm in 4x2. This same side who took being told to "shut up and stop guilt tripping us" on the discs about it on their shoulders. We still won quakes, we still participated in villages, heck we did pretty alright given what we had. I mean, for heavens sake Glom's epic was bugged for how many months before it got noticed? What quest had been openly talked about being borked, but remained unnoticed until Glomdoring was able to benefit from it?
Guys, we get it, most of us can take a hint.
There is one thing that everyone who participated in this event spent that we can't get back. Time. Ironic as that is. Time figuring out a plan, time figuring out how to best use skills in order to get a decent shot at things, and time implementing them and ensuring everyone knew what to do. Not to mention the countless credits / essence spent in order to acquire anything that would help our side out. Are us everyday people in the end the ones who benefit from winning? No. But as with what is unraveling in the world around us- every day people make the world run. Perhaps instead of rewarding the two, "winner" or "loser" a reward should be offered to those who helped make the event happen.
Edit: I found a typo!
Eve
6
Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
I would like to preface this by saying I don't really care at this point if Ixion is TA, special or otherwise. IC, I have reasons to dislike it, but OOC he was once my father IC, and once my friend, so I rate it a big shrug from me.
Having said that...
I would like to suggest that people consider how much harm they are doing to the admins and paids with the vitriol being flung about and repeated. Aonia, Orael, all of the gods, even the ephemerals, every single one of them is a player who loved this game so much they gave up truly playing it. That is HARD to start with. The turnover rate before godhood is very high. The burnout rate as a god is pretty damn high too.
Ascension must have eaten hundreds of hours of their collective time. Hundreds. Schedules tweaked so they could be available to help with the RPs, with the behind the scenes things. Looking on from above, hoping their favourites (yeah, we all know they have them) get what they're hoping for, commiserating from afar if they don't, cheering if they do.
As upset as so many of you are, imagine how upset you would be if the game you gave up playing to help was throwing this at you personally. You can say it's not personal all you like - everyone who is feeling hateful, invalidated and ignored and posting here about it, you are pushing those same emotions to them too.
I wouldn't want to be one of them right now.
Having said that...
I would like to suggest that people consider how much harm they are doing to the admins and paids with the vitriol being flung about and repeated. Aonia, Orael, all of the gods, even the ephemerals, every single one of them is a player who loved this game so much they gave up truly playing it. That is HARD to start with. The turnover rate before godhood is very high. The burnout rate as a god is pretty damn high too.
Ascension must have eaten hundreds of hours of their collective time. Hundreds. Schedules tweaked so they could be available to help with the RPs, with the behind the scenes things. Looking on from above, hoping their favourites (yeah, we all know they have them) get what they're hoping for, commiserating from afar if they don't, cheering if they do.
As upset as so many of you are, imagine how upset you would be if the game you gave up playing to help was throwing this at you personally. You can say it's not personal all you like - everyone who is feeling hateful, invalidated and ignored and posting here about it, you are pushing those same emotions to them too.
I wouldn't want to be one of them right now.
Alexandria
11
Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
As the days have gone from Ascension I felt angry, discouraged and now sad. I understand both sides are upset, I understand both sides feel like they were unjustified. What's done is done, in a way. Despite the lag, the hard work and even all the complaining and crying, I still had fun at the Ascension. I can feel the salt coming my way now, about the Ascension being fun. Granted, I didn't fully participate in Ascension, the seals were not my goal but helping my commune/allies was my goal. However, from my point of view it was a great RP experience. Groups of people coming together and working together as a team to fight for the one goal. That one goal either being the most competitive part and winning ascension or completing the sealing away of Kethuru (for now). Either way, everyone from both sides came together and worked together to do what they thought was best at the time. I'm not sure where exactly I was going with this.. I guess to just say I understand both sides and I wish everyone could see and understand everyone's side (by no means am I trying to say everyone should). I deal with a lot of rude/ungrateful people at work, and it makes me sad to see a community I enjoy be so upset and angry at each other. I don't think everyone has to be friends with everyone, but damn it we have to work together if we're going to keep Lusternia alive.
Freja
6
Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
I'm some no-body who hasn't been playing Lusternia long at all. I don't know much about the game, politics, classes, guilds, lore, or even a lot of the mechanics that some of you might view as simple. One thing I did learn when I first started playing, more specifically started playing again after quite a while away, was how important the Ascension itself was to the game.
When I played before I didn't learn a lot about the inner workings of the game. I pretty much always bashed or stood around wondering 'What can I do now to be productive,' I didn't really enjoy my time playing and ended up quitting in the long run. I've tried a few times to come back, I just couldn't get into it because I didn't have anyone to point me in any sort of direction or answer any of my questions.
I don't hold that against anyone by the way, I don't blame anyone for my lack of knowledge of the game or anything of the like. I understand that people have real lives.
When I made Zelroth I wasn't expecting much honestly, I had no idea there was anything going on, I just thought I was going to come around and do some bashing and maybe this time get to Demigod. (level 93 by the way, really excited to reach Demigod) I was told about the Ascension, and I remember sitting at the Megalith in Magnagora watching the Deathsights from the War Ascension trial with Kailanna and talking to her about it.
She told me what team she was rooting for, she explained the event to me and what it was leading too. Zelroth said to her that one day she was going to be rooting for him to win as well. It was in that moment that Zelroth decided that he wanted to participate, and actually win a seal of his own.
She told me what team she was rooting for, she explained the event to me and what it was leading too. Zelroth said to her that one day she was going to be rooting for him to win as well. It was in that moment that Zelroth decided that he wanted to participate, and actually win a seal of his own.
I spent some time reading about my abilities, trying to put together a way to kill other players to the best of my ability. I asked Shango, Thalkros, Ixion, and several other for tips. Sure, not all of them could provide specifics but they gave me enough to help formulate some sort of idea of how I can attempt to kill people on my own as well as in groups.
Skip a head a bit, and it's the week of the Ascension. I go get my daily credits, and once I'm done I go and sit at the Megalith. Continuing to try and figure out how -I- can best assist Magnagora and hopefully show that I would one day be worth showing that Zelroth will be someone worth supporting during an Ascension in the future. I put a lot of work into it, sure I had help, sure I had people giving me advice, but in the end it was -me- that put forth that effort to hopefully engage in a big fight with so many other people. Just to be completely crushed because of how bad the lag was.
I understand that I wasn't the only one, and I'm probably taking this a lot harder than I need too. The day after the Ascension, the only reason I logged in at all was because someone reached out to me on Discord and asked me to go bashing with them on Astral because they wanted to help me get Demigod.
I found out shortly after that the admins decided to ascend Ixion, and even though it didn't make me feel good about my performance in the Ascension (not like there was much anyone could do because of lag) it still made me feel pretty content with the current people in charge of Lusternia.
I joined the Lusternia Discord and was actually pretty annoyed to see how many people were enraged that Ixion was getting Ascended as well. Which, personally, I can't understand.
To those who supported Choros, congrats. Good work. I'm glad for you. (Directly after the Ascension I couldn't have said those words) You guys put in a great effort and it paid off.
To those who supported Ixion, it was a rough loss on the day of the Ascension, I personally feel like we could have won that if it wasn't for the issues that appeared. Good work, and I'm glad that I was apart of that.
To the admin, brave choice breaking the norm and ascending two people. I know some people aren't happy about it, but personally in a situation like this I'm glad you are.
Long post, now I'm done. You don't have to read it all. Have a good day and stop arguing about something so pointless. Only thing that matters is that Choros and the admins agreed that it was what they wanted to do. It was their choice, they did what they thought was right. Leave it at that and move on.
Edit: someone complained about spacing.
Edit: someone complained about spacing.
Zelroth
9
Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
Yes, we knew that some people would be upset about our decision no matter which way we went. I'll say this again. We knew that people would be upset no matter what we did. If we chose to roll with the result, one side is alienated. If we went the other direction, the other side is alienated. So it boiled down to what do we think the best option is for the game as a whole, knowing that we will end up with upset players. We did consider alternative options and those alternatives were viewed as unviable or not enough for various reasons.
We made the decision that we think is best for the game as a whole.
I will note here that I've had players from every org message me in one form or another saying they support our decision and which direction we've gone. I've had a few players message and say that they may not agree but they understand why we did it. I have had angry messages too.
I can say that one of the reasons that we didn't consult players as a whole is that we didn't want to delay this decision longer than necessary and instead move past it. I also believe opening this kind of discussion up to the player base at large would be wildly unproductive, as you've seen both in this thread and in other places it has been discussed by both sides. There are times where a decision just needs to be made, and I think this is one of those times.
As a note, I will be heading off for the night - I will respond to things when I can, but please remain on topic. I don't really want to hop on and have to delete a bunch of posts come morning.
Orael
7
Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
Also do NOT harass either of the new TAs. They did their best, and whatever the outcome, have both contributed in their own ways to the game at large. THAT goes for as much 'my side' as it does the other. Emotions run high, but we can do better, and look forward to the next time yes?
Shango
12
Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
Eve said:
Do I feel that both sides should be compensated for putting up with a clear cut issue- yes. However, rewarding the side who did in fact "lose" with the grand prize while leaving the side that did indeed win here the same prize and a fist bump for doing so well doesn't seem fair or reasonable. As it was put (last night, was it?) it is a huge slap in the face, however unsurprising in the end. I mean, this is the same side who persistently remained calm in 4x2. This same side who took being told to "shut up and stop guilt tripping us" on the discs about it on their shoulders. We still won quakes, we still participated in villages, heck we did pretty alright given what we had. I mean, for heavens sake Glom's epic was bugged for how many months before it got noticed? What quest had been openly talked about being borked, but remained unnoticed until Glomdoring was able to benefit from it?
Synl said:
Personally I think it's really naive for any one from Halifax or Celest, icly, to think the Glomdoring was supporting them for the sake of friendship. Mutual enemies etc is clearly the more obvious goal? But I'm also not Shadow Court, so just thinking out loud.
I just wanted to isolate this real quick. This attitude is how Glomdoring got into a 4v2 situation.
Maligorn
8
Re: Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem
As someone who has been participating in combat and showed up for the Final Trial, it wasn't GREAT. We were told that the counter to Creeping Doom was to raise shield in the 10s it took to explode; guess what doesn't work during lag. We were also told that Creeping Doom was the crowning gem of the Equinox strategy specifically because it worked well in lag. You could argue that that is great gameplay. I would argue that it's playing in bad faith.Eve said:<response>
Gaudiguch's epic quest has been (still is) broken; specifically, two items are not functioning at all. Furthermore, Gaudiguch's power quest is bugged wherein there are times that Drachou does not accept stones at all (and prevents us from topping up on butterflies). Yes, there are already pending reports on them (29625, for example). Quest bugs are not unique to Glomdoring and to insinuate that Glomdoring, specifically, is being ignored is uncool.
Mboagn
7
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