By certain guilds refusing to allow people to classflex, what it does is create a situation where people will migrate to those guilds, and then classflex out to the guilds that allow it, which really defeats the point of classflexing, in my opinion. I feel that classflexing was a move that was made to A) generate income, and help promote guild health by not requiring people to leave guilds to play with other classes. Allowing one to stay in a guild, while trying out new and fun, exciting skillsets, playing with them etc.
I'm also of the opinion that while sometimes, RP shouldn't exactly dictate everything you do in game. For instance, it's pretty obviously within some orgs RP to destroy their opposing Org. Mag and Celest are probably the most obvious of this, Glom and Serenwilde are a close second. Were we to RP it out correctly, those RL day long, constant raids that have been cried about in the past, should actually be promoted and encouraged because hey, it's RP. But most notably, people on the receiving end of those raids (and we've all been there), typically ask raiders to exercise 'common decency' and think about what they're doing to the opposing RL players. So rather than follow the RP of 'destroy the taint or burn the forest' etc, they back off and let things lie. This is an example of where RL actually dictates IC actions. The same should be true of classflexing, I feel, and I'm definitely bias because I want to play with other skillsets.
I find it hard to believe that a guild can't possibly find RP justification for allowing classflexing to just about anyone. And the fact that they give permissions can let them RP it out more fully because it can have lasting consequences. Why can't the Shadowdancers use their classflexers to insert certain influence upon people within other guilds to help manipulate politics within the Glomdoring or even from other orgs, as one example? I think there are plenty of RP justifications for these more secretive guilds to allow classflexing fitting entirely within their RP structure that is set up, and allowing players in the game a chance to try new and exciting skillsets while not giving up everything they have.
Just my opinion that's likely bias because I want toys to play with.
PS - I never understood the 'no guild leaders flexing' argument. As guild champion, I'm still entirely capable of teaching and giving advice no matter what class I am. GM can still make decisions and influence the guild and GA can still help newbies and promote within the guild, there responsibilities don't suffer if they flex.
"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in." -Synkarin's Lament.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited May 2014
The problem is that the Shadowdancers have 400+ years of being the "chosen of Mother Night" and handing that off to others undermines everything they've been since they were created.
Which is why, ICly, they've rejected it thus far. I'm not saying we won't eventually, I'm sure the pressure will build. We just have to rewrite some of the SDs identity to do so without just tossing out the RP that has made the SDs unique.
edit: That is to say, it's not a 'secrecy' thing. It's an identity thing. If everyone can be an SD, then the guild ceases being a group of people chosen by Mother Night to enact her will, and become a group of people who worship Mother Night. Which is not how we've been selling it for years and years and years. It's not, personally, something I'm okay with hodgepodging together ICly to justify PK pwnage. Which is partly by bias because of the time I've spent building up and reinforcing the SD identity.
The problem is that the Shadowdancers have 400+ years of being the "chosen of Mother Night" and handing that off to others undermines everything they've been since they were created.
Which is why, ICly, they've rejected it thus far. I'm not saying we won't eventually, I'm sure the pressure will build. We just have to rewrite some of the SDs identity to do so without just tossing out the RP that has made the SDs unique.
Mother Night is also subtle and manipulative, so it's not really a stretch to say that you have people within other guilds manipulating things that happen for Mother Night. I don't think it really undermines anything, especially is you RP it right. Yeah, maybe they aren't the chosen of Mother Night, but Mother Night certainly isn't above using people for her own gains, and if you want people to give and work for you, you got to give something in return IE classflex.
Edit: I also think guildskills are like the least important thing in regards to guild identity, I mean anyone at GR3 can trans them out, it's mechanically and RPly something that people within the guild just 'do'
"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in." -Synkarin's Lament.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited May 2014
I don't think that's an incorrect statement, I just think it's allowing mechanics to dictate the RP and pushing it down a path it wouldn't have otherwise taken.
edit: I also think guild skills are very much at the core identity of many guilds. This is how they were originally intended, else we'd have had classflexing at the start. Mechanics have simply changed and mindsets have to change to adapt to the meta.
I agree, it definitely wouldn't have gone down this path. Most guilds have a 'leave us and keep guild skills, we'll hunt you until the end of time' policy.
I'm just coming from the facet that it's here, and not likely going change, and as such, being flexible is the best way to go.
By the way, I have no qualms with the time limit, cost etc. I think it's fine limited as it is. It doesn't actually require that big of an investment and it's an investment someone can easily make with nothing but in game work. Just gotta want it.
I cannot wait for the day the SDs will allow classflexing.
edit:
maybe just allow people with the guild honour to classflex. -pet shiny guild honour-
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Woah, I'm agreeing with @Synkarin... the world must be coming to an end. And here's what I'd like to add... The percentage of individuals that DO classflex is really below 10 (This is me going with the best case scenario, it's probably more like 2). For the most part, it's people with shiny toys that would like to experience other classes but are also already holding a position in their guild (Or are ranked pretty highly, etc). Now, as mentioned, they could always roll an alt and play that alt for a while to get a feel of said guild's skills, but what that accomplishes is to leave another guild without a specific guild leader or with less active members, and it also forces said individuals to spend money on something that they might eventually never get to use, because let's face it... you're not going to decide that Guild Y is much better than Guild X if you're coming in as a complete newbie and just ditch your long-time character with all the toys to stay on that alt... let alone buy new toys for your new character so you'd be at roughly the same position as you were on your previous one. Not to mention limited edition toys like curios, etc.
On the other hand, if said person got good treatment from their 'new' guild, enjoyed the skills, figured out that their toys can work quite well with said guild, who knows, maybe they'll try to switch to their classflex guild instead. Expecting them to get an alt in, get all the combat-required skills, decide they like the guild and go back to their main to switch is an even stranger idea. Having spent say $200 to get to a combat-worthy position on the new guild, should I spend another $200 to move my main character? Or maybe dump another $3000 to trans all skills, buy all artifacts and ditch my main? Considering the price on the Tam alone.... yeah, good luck getting anyone to say how that logic will work.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
As a data point: Every guild in Celest allows classflexing, both into and out of their guild.
The Aquamancers are the most strict (Aquamancers may only classflex to a Celestian guild) the Paladins and Celestines are slightly less strict (only allowing citizens to classflex to their guild, but letting guild members classflex to any non-enemy org), while the Cantors are the least strict (guild members can classflex as they like within the bounds of preexisting city laws, and any guild leader can approve classflex permission without needing to consult the others). The Tahtetso have what sounds like the most common rule (2/3rds majority to classflex in, allows classflexing out to anyone Celest is at peace with).
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On the other hand, if said person got good treatment from their 'new' guild, enjoyed the skills, figured out that their toys can work quite well with said guild, who knows, maybe they'll try to switch to their classflex guild instead. Expecting them to get an alt in, get all the combat-required skills, decide they like the guild and go back to their main to switch is an even stranger idea. Having spent say $200 to get to a combat-worthy position on the new guild, should I spend another $200 to move my main character? Or maybe dump another $3000 to trans all skills, buy all artifacts and ditch my main? Considering the price on the Tam alone.... yeah, good luck getting anyone to say how that logic will work.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The Aquamancers are the most strict (Aquamancers may only classflex to a Celestian guild) the Paladins and Celestines are slightly less strict (only allowing citizens to classflex to their guild, but letting guild members classflex to any non-enemy org), while the Cantors are the least strict (guild members can classflex as they like within the bounds of preexisting city laws, and any guild leader can approve classflex permission without needing to consult the others). The Tahtetso have what sounds like the most common rule (2/3rds majority to classflex in, allows classflexing out to anyone Celest is at peace with).