State of Conflict: Risk vs Reward

ShikhaShikha Member Posts: 53 Apprentice
This is something I've seen talked about some in the past, and I'm honestly concerned about the lack of attention it's received. In the past we have always framed this discussion in the light that it was not worth the risk of raiding for the reward of successfully winning. It made sense, in some lights, that raiding shouldn't be made too easy because of griefing worries, and that those who wanted to raid for personal enjoyment should put more on the line than defenders because that helped to promote even team situations.

The truth of the matter is that this has created a situation where raiding is 100% pointless. The power gains of slaying an enemy's cosmic (or ethereal) SMobs is less than a good astral ur'Bash. Additional concerns of off-hour raiding vs counter off-hour raiding provide an additional deterrent, as parties are willing to maintain the status quo so long as everyone else does too.

Community and admin both, I'd really like to have a discussion about what can be done to create an enjoyable conflict experience. The idea of offense/defense across the planes has always been one of the core concepts to conflict here in Lusternia. While revolts and domoths provide their own unique, strategic challenges, I feel the essential removal of planar raiding has removed an interesting part of the game.

Is it abusable? All the big orgs group up to bash the small orgs ents over and over? Technically possible. That can still happen in villages and domoths too. SMob invulnerability time can be adjusted up to limit the negative impact possible. It just seems crazy to me to see a group of like half the people online astral bashing as a team, the other half offline, but hear that killing SMobs isn't worth their time.
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Comments

  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess Member Posts: 2,927 Transcendent
    edited May 2014
    Good luck getting major changes implemented during combat overhaul. :/
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  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    The forums quote function is breaking horribly on me so I'll go without. Anyways:

    I don't disagree, but I think if you're going to compare the power rewards via squads these days to -anything-, you're expecting too much gain. I have a feeling squads were never meant to haul in as much power as you all are managing over there right now, and frankly, we're probably better off looking into nerfing power gain from squads than trying to raise other major forms of power gain (flares, smobs, etc.) to match it. Especially if it is demotivating people from wanting to do anything else.
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    Also, as a point of interest: with smobs, you have to kill a specific set in order for another (specific) org to harvest that power. With the squad, all you have to do is change the org your formation is for, and they can easily share in the benefit. I don't see that changing easily either.
  • MunsiaMunsia The Supreme Goddess Member Posts: 1,374 Transcendent
    You can't really put Smobs on that list...as every time a raid on an smob realm is done, the admin buff them. It just becomes increasingly more and more not worth it. Also I disagree on the point of 'never ment to' considering the power logs were broken once and they were readjusted to meet the income (though we broke that again recently). 

    I think having 25 people come together for a bashing on astral is quite astronomical and screams team effort more than nothing, and the reward is well enough worth it. Especially for people like me who gain 0 from bashing at all.  
  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    We CAN"T kill smobs with this many people. We need at least 30 demigods with super high HP to even scratch them.

    Nerf smobs and we'd do them. Otherwise, leave us our astral.
  • MunsiaMunsia The Supreme Goddess Member Posts: 1,374 Transcendent
    edited May 2014
    Also note that the large amount of power takes hours to draw in. I think 4 hours for a good haul and upwards of 20+ people. 
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    Some other change to consider:

    Reduce exp loss on deaths in enemy territory, but make the resurrect delay longer there. Like instead of 30 seconds to phoenix, make it 2-3 minutes, randomised.

    The only problem there is the variety of instant-resurrection skills and effects, some of which are pretty exclusive. We'd need to consider something with them too.

  • IlthiliorIlthilior Member Posts: 87 Adept
    If I can bring in, say, 100 power off of raiding Celestia for a half hour (extremely risky) versus 10,000 power for gaining 5-6 million essence over 4 hours, I don't think there's any real thought process as to what I'm going to do. And while there is the opportunity to get power via killing smobs, it's even riskier.

    I'd like to see something where risk means reward power wise. Maybe that means nerfing, or maybe that means more than 10k power for a supermob. We are talking about orgs raising Ascendants with 2-4 million power, for the most part. Why wouldn't it make sense to increase the value of the smobs and maybe everything else by a bit to make the risks worth the rewards?
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    Ilthilior said:
    I'd like to see something where risk means reward power wise. Maybe that means nerfing, or maybe that means more than 10k power for a supermob. We are talking about orgs raising Ascendants with 2-4 million power, for the most part. Why wouldn't it make sense to increase the value of the smobs and maybe everything else by a bit to make the risks worth the rewards?
    As a note, Vernal Ascendants only used to cost 1 million power, and you could get as many as you wanted at that price so long as you had power for it. It was changed - either because the administration or the playerbase felt that Ascendants should be more rare. I can't remember which it was.

    For that reason, I feel like making it easier to amass more power might not be considered, but if they're receptive then we'll just have to see.

  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    The smobs aren't even all balanced. Spheres and pots can be done with half the numbers needed for supernals/demon lords. Why the inconsistency?

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  • IlthiliorIlthilior Member Posts: 87 Adept
    Vivet said:
    Ilthilior said:
    I'd like to see something where risk means reward power wise. Maybe that means nerfing, or maybe that means more than 10k power for a supermob. We are talking about orgs raising Ascendants with 2-4 million power, for the most part. Why wouldn't it make sense to increase the value of the smobs and maybe everything else by a bit to make the risks worth the rewards?
    As a note, Vernal Ascendants only used to cost 1 million power, and you could get as many as you wanted at that price so long as you had power for it. It was changed - either because the administration or the playerbase felt that Ascendants should be more rare. I can't remember which it was.

    For that reason, I feel like making it easier to amass more power might not be considered, but if they're receptive then we'll just have to see.

    I'm definitely not saying easier to amass more power, but maybe taking more away so it's actually meaningful. As it stands 10k isn't really all that much in comparison to all of the other things we have that are power gainers.

    I mean, it could definitely be tweaked so a new org doesn't get auto-ganked into the negatives when they start out, but I think everyone else is on a somewhat even playing field.
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    Else, there could be some other new reward besides power (though don't ask what, if I had an idea I'd suggest one.)
  • IlthiliorIlthilior Member Posts: 87 Adept
    Better/more consistent ikon drops?
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    (the VA change was entirely admin driven, but supported by a group of players)

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • MunsiaMunsia The Supreme Goddess Member Posts: 1,374 Transcendent
    Cause SOMEONE had too many. 
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 1,299 Mythical
    edited May 2014
    Vivet said:
    Some other change to consider:

    Reduce exp loss on deaths in enemy territory, but make the resurrect delay longer there. Like instead of 30 seconds to phoenix, make it 2-3 minutes, randomised.

    The only problem there is the variety of instant-resurrection skills and effects, some of which are pretty exclusive. We'd need to consider something with them too.

    3 minutes is too long.  In that time you would drain down to 0 mana and start losing essence rapidly. (if I remember correctly the drain ticks about every 5-10 seconds and seems to take around 5% of your mana each time it ticks)  To make something like that work, they would have to lower the mana drain per tick or increase the time length between them.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

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  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 560 Fabled
    edited May 2014
    Kagato said:

    3 minutes is too long.  In that time you would drain down to 0 mana and start losing essence rapidly. (if I remember correctly the drain ticks about every 5-10 seconds and seems to take around 5% of your mana each time it ticks)
    It would only be too long while phoenixing doesn't start out by killing the mana/essence ticks. Have them stop as soon as the res starts and that problem's gone.
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 1,299 Mythical
    edited May 2014
    ?? I think you are mistaking Phoenix for Praying.  Phoenix is instant, but you are forced to sit around unless someone grabs your body and resurrects you.  Until your spark is strong enough, you basically get to sit around and eat the mana drain ticking away while you are in soul form.  If you happen to die with anything below maybe 70-80% mana, if there was a 3 minute penalty, you stand to lose even more essence.

    I am not sure how long it is between ticks, but assuming it is 10 seconds per tick, that is 18 ticks of mana/essence you would have to worry about.  If you die below 90% mana with that situation and have to wait 3 minutes before you can phoenix, you will be eating a mandatory essence loss on top of your death.  If it turns out that it is 5 seconds like I think, then you have 36 ticks.  Even with 100% mana, you still eat 16 ticks of essence loss.

    EDIT: Clarified first paragraph a little bit.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess Member Posts: 2,927 Transcendent
    The issue already exists considering the fact that when you die, you do not get restored to full mana. If you were dropped with a mana kill and ended up at 0 mana before even dying, you're eating the essence drain ticks at 0 mana as it is.
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  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,631 Transcendent
    +1 (y) Like RT *

    the above
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • ChadeChade Member Posts: 265 Gifted
    Ciaran said:
    The problem can't necessarily be solved by mechanical changes.

    We're in this game together.  It's not a game that either side can 'win', really I wish more people would see that.  The goal of the game is to have a good time right?  We can GIVE each other good fights.  We don't need the admin to build a perfect set of rules so that everyone HAS to have a good time.

    You guys are too competitive for that I think though.  Especially in the north I see a refusal to fight unless the odds are strongly in our favor.  I try to raid fire from time to time, stick around and have a good fight until I get zerged and die.  500k essence loss for a bit of entertainment? No biggy.  I wish more people would stop trying to win and start having fun.  Shoutout to @thoros @chade who do from time to time.
    Sums it up perfectly for me Ciaran. I'm here to have fun, Lusternia is a game first and foremost and people need to remember that. I far prefer a good fight where we lose over the monotony of easy victories. Case in point, yesterdays Chaos Domoth was the most fun I've had in ages and I got beaten bloody during that. 
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Well obviously I wish more people would fight, but it's difficult to say "Just have fun, solo raid!" or some variation of that. I try to solo raid all the time, but when you're on your own, going up against any more than 2 people is mostly just watching yourself cure. Save for a handful of guilds in the right scenarios, being successful in solo raiding is rough. On the flip side, a lot of people just don't find defending against raids all that fun, no matter who is raiding. 

    All that being said, I think domoths need to be changed. 1) Remove most of the buffs, and keep only the org buffs. Make them 1 level only. 2) make them fluxuate at a somewhat random time, no upgrading. They'll change hands a lot more and domoths won't be as much of an afk grind for the org who gets to pick the time of conflict.

    Also yes: stop being afraid to die. 
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,206 Transcendent
    Idea: instead of domoths being only buffs, allow "cursing" instead, like karma curses work.

    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • RialormRialorm Member Posts: 1,055 Transcendent
    Celina said:
    Also yes: stop being afraid to die. 
    My problem with dying is being a non-demi. As a demi with a good essence buffer I'd probably give fuck all because it's not so much a setback. Before that time you risk down-leveling not to mention losing crit chance. Sure there are ways around that like conglut, but that means spending the lessons and credits to get that, not something every new player just gets as guild skills are generally more important. I think if once you gained a level, you couldn't drop from that anymore, but you could still drop within the level that'd already make things nicer without making it too easy. 

    And before anyone says it, experience isn't as easy to get for everyone. Sure monks are pretty decent bashers, especially when you finally invest enough in bashing related goodies, but it still is a good time investment as I hardly get to participate in ur'bashes / aetherbashes. 
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  • ShikhaShikha Member Posts: 53 Apprentice
    There is a clear end to raids. For example, on Celestia, all the angels are now dead. You can stand around but it doesn't matter anymore because there is nothing left to gain or take away. If you have enough to do supernals, and you do so, that is the end. There is nothing left to do for that raid.

    Reducing the headache of SMobs being dead by having them auto-regenerated instead of people fighting to grief essence drops would remove the possibility for people to try to ultra-grief the situation (though the fact that there is way more essence to be farmed these days than there used to be points towards this not being as painful as it used to be). Increasing SMob immunity periods also reduces the ability for orgs to be griefed. There's lots of things that can be done to reduce the pain for defenders who have lost without removing the mechanic all together, or making it so impossible that it is basically removed for all intents and purposes.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,631 Transcendent
    Will to live. Learn to have fun. Don't be afraid to die. WILL TO LIVE!
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • RialormRialorm Member Posts: 1,055 Transcendent
    Fair point Celina. And heh, I bashed a Nihilist to Demi, before whips, so yeah I got it far better right now Dx Maybe I'm still just traumatized by that :P
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