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Influence with the Undead

ShaddusShaddus , the Leper MessiahOutside your window.
edited October 2014 in Ideas
There's been an issue lately with crow cloaks, and how one of our villages can't really be effectively influenced due to a lack of rapport with the undead for 4/6 orgs.  I'm aware that there is a quest to remove the undead or something from Angkrag; no, I don't believe this is an acceptable counter to being unable to influence the undead.

Sacraments and Necromancy both have influence-empowering skills at 0% Mastery. Necromancy allows the holder to influence undead, and able to influence them better than Crow Cloak wearers. The second part isn't much of a buff, so I'd like to ignore that for now. Further, Necromancers are able to imbue undeath into others, also basically giving them this ability aside from the aforementioned last part. In contrast, Sacraments users can parley slightly better and pay less gold for it. The difference is quite stunning, and I feel these two skills are really there for rp purposes.

Crow cloaks, while a bit expensive, can be used by any person who holds them for the purpose of influencing the undead. Not only does this allow the entirety of Glomdoring to influence undead, but also exposes the rest of the game to accusations of metagaming if they come across a crow cloak.

Having said all that, I'd like to suggest the following possible changes to ease these issues:

Allow anyone to influence the undead. This will likely require a handful of refunds for those who purchased a Book of the Dead.

Change Necromancy's Master skill and Crow Cloaks to give a level 1-2 bonus to influencing the undead, but a -1 malus to influencing the living, increased to -2 if the person is actually currently undead. Malus is negated if the person is influencing with intimidation. I feel this is acceptable both with mechanics and RP.

Give Sacraments HolyGround (75% Expert) a +1 bonus to Sacraments users for influencing the living while in the room, -1 Malus to influencing the undead.

Give Moonlight (66% Master Moon) a +1 to influencing the living except intimidation, -1 malus to influencing the undead.


Oh yeah, forgot this. Slight buff:

Only allow the maker of a Crow Cloak to use it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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Comments

  • SsalissSsaliss
    Hmm. Not sure I agree with Necromancers automatically being worse influencers. Crow cloaks can be removed, necromancy can't, really. Well, at least not as easily. I'm fairly neutral on the whole "influence the undead" bit, but sure, I can see it happening. I can't really see an IC reason why you wouldn't be able to chat up the undead just as you would the living... after all, they speak (mostly) normally, so why wouldn't influencing work on them?
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Pretty valid point that I hadn't thought of. Other suggestions, rebukes, and refusals are encouraged.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ArcanisArcanis
    No.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Arcanis said:
    No.
    So what you're saying is that you believe a village shouldn't be able to be influenced by two-thirds of the basin?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ArcanisArcanis
    Shaddus said:
    Arcanis said:
    No.
    So what you're saying is that you believe a village shouldn't be able to be influenced by two-thirds of the basin?
    Things are fine as is and frankly this idea seems more like a complaint (not to mention is completely unjustified in 'giving a malus to everything not undead...seriously?). It's not needed.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Things are fine because you have a buff that others don't have. It's all about perspective, and 2/3 of the orgs don't have that buff. You're welcome to suggest something to balance this out, critique my ideas and suggest alternatives, or go look at other posts.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Even if all we got was "Living people can influence the undead but with a -1 malus", that would at least allow people to win Angkrag and influence undead at some point.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • MarcellaMarcella
    Absolutely not @ the undead malus with living, unless you also make it so that we can village influence fine. 
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Arcanis said:


    Shaddus said:


    Arcanis said:

    No.

    So what you're saying is that you believe a village shouldn't be able to be influenced by two-thirds of the basin?

    Things are fine as is and frankly this idea seems more like a complaint (not to mention is completely unjustified in 'giving a malus to everything not undead...seriously?). It's not needed.


    Holy Jesus, talk about being negative and hypocritical. You lambasted comments I said that closely resemble your comments here. Good work

    Everiine said:
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    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Marcella said:
    Absolutely not @ the undead malus with living, unless you also make it so that we can village influence fine. 
    I don't have a major issue with that, so long as any accompanying "living have an influence malus with the undead" is also removed.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I saw a bunch of admin show up on the forums and then leave. I wish they would weigh in with some sort of nonbinding opinions on this.


    I know you people are reading this. Don't make me tag you.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • SsalissSsaliss
    Problem is, people generally take admins weighing in as binding opinions. That's why they say "no" far more often than they say "yes". Which, I suppose, is good in your case!
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I know, but optimism springs eternal.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie
    edited October 2014
    Agree that having a village that most of the game can't contest is bad. Having contested objectives is fun and a good thing.

    Having Mag and to a lesser extent Glom be better at influencing undead than others seems like a good thing from a fluff perspective, but at the same time I feel like having all the sides be at the same power level is also good for competition. So here's a way to have both.

    Leave the abilities in Mag and Glom as they are. Then, add in an org scale conflict quest that the other orgs can do to gain the ability to influence undead. Either make it so completing the quest renders all undead influencable by everyone until the counterquest is done (you could even tack this effect onto the Spire of Dionamus to avoid adding a whole new quest if you wanted) or make completing the quest give X items that allow the wearer to influence the undead like a crowcloak that last for a week or two and not have a counterquest to deactivate it.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • RialormRialorm
    Current situation seems to me like it would be fine if it didn't affect villages. But since it does I think that warrants it for change. Can't have an unbalanced game for the sake of roleplay. Besides I also feel like undead should be able to be influenced. They're not braindead.
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  • HaezonHaezon
    edited October 2014
    I think this was all an elaborate ruse in order to start this very discussion in the first place! Shenanigans!

    I had a longer post, but in short, don't nerd crow cloaks. Just nerf their effect on the fairness for everything else. I agree with Rialorm, and I would find it charming to add an extra effect to the spire of Dio that it would allow everyone to influence undead, or something else which would level the playing field as it were.

    But saying 'we want what they have' or 'we don't want them to have that' is childish.

    EDIT: Plus, I seem to recall it is possible to influence Angkrag, it would just take a very very long time. Just influencing the same denizen over and over multiple times is possible to make it happen.
    Retired.
  • LlandrosLlandros
    edited October 2014
    Since this has clearly never been brought up before I think this warrants a serious discussion about throwing out random nerfs just because. Especially since most liches have a stat malus for over half of each hour and Magnagora's spec race has low charisma but sure lets just slap them with an influence penalty.

    Also, we can't influence all undead just the ones that are still very much people like. Feral zombies and undead groundhogs are outside of our abilities.

    Analyzing game elements for fairness in a vacuum is always going to make everyone unhappy. For example the Mount Dio quest that penalizes undead and gives a curio but no curio for taking it down. How is it fair that we have to heartstop to become living again but Gloms can just remove a cloak. Why can Celest make their dolphins invincible when we can't do the same to sea wolves? Why do our Demon Lords keep killing our citizens? Why does our power quest kill newbies left and right? Why, why, WHY!?!?!?!?!?

    Maybe because there is a village that is easier for us to take. Maybe not. I don't know. I'm pretty sure that nerfing the undead because the world isn't fair isn't the answer though.



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  • SsalissSsaliss
    Frankly, I'd be glad to see most of those resolved, especially the rather weird lopsidedness of dolphins vs. sea wolves. Perhaps not the demon lords killing people, because... I mean, c'mon, they're demon lords. They're supposed to be scary.
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    edited October 2014
    Haezon said:



    EDIT: Plus, I seem to recall it is possible to influence Angkrag, it would just take a very very long time. Just influencing the same denizen over and over multiple times is possible to make it happen.
    No. It is literally impossible for a living person without necromancy or a crow cloak to influence a dead denizen. Unless you're suggesting we should have to influence all of the unnamed orcs to take the village instead of the named denizens which are mostly undead...then yeah, no.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Llandros said:
     Why does our power quest power-level newbies left and right?
    Fixed for you ;)
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • SsalissSsaliss
    Shaddus said:
    Haezon said:



    EDIT: Plus, I seem to recall it is possible to influence Angkrag, it would just take a very very long time. Just influencing the same denizen over and over multiple times is possible to make it happen.
    No. It is literally impossible for a living person without necromancy or a crow cloak to influence a dead denizen. Unless you're suggesting we should have to influence all of the unnamed orcs to take the village instead of the named denizens which are mostly undead...then yeah, no.
    I think there's one or two in Angkrag who isn't undead. So theoretically, if unopposed, you could take it in... a couple of hours.
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited October 2014
    Viscanti also have a bonus to village influencing and weakening, and an irontongue viscanti playing vileblood can get, uh, 17 charisma, counting bardicpresence but no other buffs? Beauty karma and throne makes that 19. Demigod with some work makes that 21. (Correct me if I'm wrong). It's not -that- terrible.

    Referring to Shaddus's first post: correct that silly malus to living influence and it's A-OK. And, making crow cloaks only work for the maker is actually a nerf -- that means only Crow users can use them, ever, cutting out three of Glomdoring's own guilds (especially shadowsinger faelings!!) from influencing the undead.

    EDIT: However, that does beg the question: does VileBlood work in peaced revolts?


    Here's a suggestion: make lichseeds not work on Megalith power, and spread undeath to the entire Basin.

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  • ArimisiaArimisia
    Maligorn said:

    Here's a suggestion: make lichseeds not work on Megalith power, and spread undeath to the entire Basin.
    we used to be able to! but I think we kinda used to do it to celestians and they complained about it.
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  • MoiMoi
    Alternative solution: Make it so that killing a laidback denizen in a revolt counts for just as much toward getting the village as influencing them.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Maligorn said:


    Referring to Shaddus's first post: correct that silly malus to living influence and it's A-OK. And, making crow cloaks only work for the maker is actually a nerf -- that means only Crow users can use them, ever, cutting out three of Glomdoring's own guilds (especially shadowsinger faelings!!) from influencing the undead.




    Of course, it also keeps 23 other guilds from stealing one or bribing one away and using it.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • TomoTomo
    There's also the thought of just moving the crow cloak quest bit to a mob that isn't planted in the commune - like that weirdo that's shacked up by the river - so theoretically anyone could get one in a pinch. But, that'd probably be pretty lame and really a means to a potentially-more-easily-reached end.
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  • LlandrosLlandros
    Maligorn said:
    Viscanti also have a bonus to village influencing and weakening, and an irontongue viscanti playing vileblood can get, uh, 17 charisma, counting bardicpresence but no other buffs? Beauty karma and throne makes that 19. Demigod with some work makes that 21. (Correct me if I'm wrong). It's not -that- terrible.

    Referring to Shaddus's first post: correct that silly malus to living influence and it's A-OK. And, making crow cloaks only work for the maker is actually a nerf -- that means only Crow users can use them, ever, cutting out three of Glomdoring's own guilds (especially shadowsinger faelings!!) from influencing the undead.

    EDIT: However, that does beg the question: does VileBlood work in peaced revolts?


    Here's a suggestion: make lichseeds not work on Megalith power, and spread undeath to the entire Basin.
    Viscanti are a low charisma race. They are a low charisma spec race. It is not always reasonable or possible to keep vile blood up and it is a weighted stat which makes a big difference since it pisses away the bonus other bards get from things like having a throne or the high magic ability. 

    It is admirable though that someone with the highest charisma bard specs in the entire game feels the need to challenge that point. Well done sir!

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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Can we quit derailing? Thanks.


    This thread isn't about which bard spec is best, and how to balance them. Feel free to start a new thread if you want. This thread is about the ability for two-thirds of the game to influence in a village without an easily derailed quest.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited October 2014

    Llandros said:
    Maligorn said:
    Viscanti also have a bonus to village influencing and weakening, and an irontongue viscanti playing vileblood can get, uh, 17 charisma, counting bardicpresence but no other buffs? Beauty karma and throne makes that 19. Demigod with some work makes that 21. (Correct me if I'm wrong). It's not -that- terrible.

    Referring to Shaddus's first post: correct that silly malus to living influence and it's A-OK. And, making crow cloaks only work for the maker is actually a nerf -- that means only Crow users can use them, ever, cutting out three of Glomdoring's own guilds (especially shadowsinger faelings!!) from influencing the undead.

    EDIT: However, that does beg the question: does VileBlood work in peaced revolts?


    Here's a suggestion: make lichseeds not work on Megalith power, and spread undeath to the entire Basin.
    Viscanti are a low charisma race. They are a low charisma spec race. It is not always reasonable or possible to keep vile blood up and it is a weighted stat which makes a big difference since it pisses away the bonus other bards get from things like having a throne or the high magic ability. 

    It is admirable though that someone with the highest charisma bard specs in the entire game feels the need to challenge that point. Well done sir!
    Chill. I said correct me if I'm wrong, don't snark me out. I haven't bothered to wrap my head around how weighted and unweighted buffs work, so I knew I might be wrong.

    EDIT: Or better, give me some real facts on the highest cha an irontongue can get instead of dissing warbling trills.

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