Buff Specifics

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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    What?


    Nature             Barkskin           Cutting         18
    Resilience                               Cutting         12
                                                Cutting         30 (30)              25%
                                                                                  
    Nature             Barkskin           Blunt           18
    Resilience                               Blunt           12
                                                            Blunt           30 (30)              25%
  • RoarkRoark Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 16 Creator
    Sorry, I was thinking of the chemantic barks. Nature barkskin is supposed to be blunt and cutting. That is how it's currently coded in the new system and is what Estarra posted in the OP.
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  • RoarkRoark Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 16 Creator
    I updated puissance. When we rolled out two handed weapons some years back, I had to halve the puissance buff for two handers since it only modified the next attack, and a two handed attack was like two blows from a one handed weapons. I wanted the buff to be neutral, not favoring one or the other type of weapons. Thus halving the buff for a double attack resulted in no difference.

    With this new system I tried to do the same thing but occurred to me that this biases in favor of one handed weapons. It was a +5 for one handed weapons. If you already have a +3 then using it with a one handed weapon would get you a net +2, but halving it when used with a two handed weapon would result in no benefit at all. Therefore, I've updated puissance to give the same buff regardless of weapon (which also means I can show it in BODYSCAN), but one handed weapons get two blows instead of one. Note that the second blow has to come very quickly after the first, essentially making it identical to the effect and use on two handed weapons. I have updated Esatarra's OP to reflect this.
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  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    Man, I forgot how good Harmony is.  WTB Harmony for Nekotai xD
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    WTB Harmony for Ninjakari.

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    edited April 2015
    Note that I've updated the table again, primarily for debuffs.  Debuffs are quite a bit more heavily weighted than buffs because:
    1) There are far fewer of them, and
    2) They were coded to have a pretty large impact by-and-large, so in order to try to keep their relational value, they have been given higher weights.  Note that this is still going to be a significant reduction to them... but that's kind of the intent of this buff overhaul.

    Roark has most of this coded in now, excepting for damage enhancements (which are not yet complete), but it's not actually "live" in the overhaul testing yet.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    I've also put up a preliminary list for damage enhancements.  Note that there are far fewer of these than resistances, so it's going to be really unlikely anyone is going to hit the cap under the current paradigm.  I'm hesitant to make them larger just for that sake, though.  I want them to roughly mirror the resistances end (so that it keeps the same general + to - mirror that currently exists).

    Instead, I think that this opens room for Envoys to provide some extra choices that might help clarify and distinguish guilds from each other a bit more (with specific types of damage enhancement instead of universal).  It'll be much more feasible now because there won't be as much chance of "outliers" skewing things dramatically and breaking the system for everyone else.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    My biggest concern is that without readily available universal damage enhancements to reach max levels, guilds with 100% damage types will continue to surpass split damage types and I don't think single damage type attacks should come with an inherent advantage over split damage attacks. 
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    Celina said:

    My biggest concern is that without readily available universal damage enhancements to reach max levels, guilds with 100% damage types will continue to surpass split damage types and I don't think single damage type attacks should come with an inherent advantage over split damage attacks. 

    This isn't really different than the current system though (as you state with the "continue"), which means that it's outside the intent of this.  I was asked to convert, not to try to re-balance.  That said, I think that there could be room for certain guild skills to help address and alleviate that when appropriate, whereas under the old system such was not possible.  That'll need to be done through envoys, though.
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  • KaimanahiKaimanahi The One True Queen Member Posts: 719 Transcendent
    In the current pre-Overhaul system, numen gives a 50% resistance to incoming damage, completely separate from the dmp system. Making it a 4/10, which translates into +12(%)?, is a pretty big nerf. I would like numen to remain outside of the dmp system since it is not a defense and only has a small window with an appreciable power cost (4p).

    I'm making this comment on behalf of Paladin skills, but I think other similar abilities (include on the offense spectrum, like puissance) which are only temporary buffs with a power cost should be treated similarly.
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,612 Transcendent
    I don't think they should be, I'd rather remain within the system, but have them give a large buff like 8/10 (example, don't flip out) for x seconds before it fades.

    I'm a big fan of consistency.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    edited April 2015
    My current instructions are that everything should be under the new system.  Note that there is very little effective difference between a 4/10 and an 8/10 though (they're both going to end up providing about the same effect in the end).

    That is different on the offensive end (for example, with Puissance) since there are far fewer filler skills and common abilities to bump that up.  That said, since they are temporary, I really don't have any objection to doing as Sojiro suggested and make them 8/10 (or similar), but that would only be for the temporary (time-limited) abilities that consume power to activate.

    Edit: I'll also note that there's nothing saying that some of these skills can't be envoyed to add some other effect back in, but my guess is that damage-resist outside of the system is a non-starter so it would need to be something in addition to the resistance.  Some sort of periodic health restoration, maybe.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:

    Celina said:

    My biggest concern is that without readily available universal damage enhancements to reach max levels, guilds with 100% damage types will continue to surpass split damage types and I don't think single damage type attacks should come with an inherent advantage over split damage attacks. 

    This isn't really different than the current system though (as you state with the "continue"), which means that it's outside the intent of this.  I was asked to convert, not to try to re-balance.  That said, I think that there could be room for certain guild skills to help address and alleviate that when appropriate, whereas under the old system such was not possible.  That'll need to be done through envoys, though.
    I didn't ask for a rebalancing of the existing skills. You said envoys should start looking at damage buffs that aren't universal, when universal damage buffs are what is going to keep single damage type attacks from surpassing split damage even further. 
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  • KaimanahiKaimanahi The One True Queen Member Posts: 719 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:

    My current instructions are that everything should be under the new system.

    If that's the case, then yeah, I think we're going to be doing a lot of Envoying to fix skills. Anyway, if everything is supposed to be in there, then I hope racial resistances are, too.
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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    I agree. Racial resistances should be included in this system.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    I have made the following changes based on the feedback:
    1) Numen has been made 6/10.
    2) Puissance has been made 6/10.
    3) Arcane Shield has been made 6/10.
    This is because these are short-lived temporary effects.  These should, when appropriately combined with other buffs, get you to the cap pretty easily while not completely removing the need to use other buffs alongside them.

    4) HavocCry has been made 1/8.
    5) Affinity has been made 1/8.
    This has been adjusted because these are not exactly "common" skills, and should be worth purchasing.  One is terrain limited, and one is limited by time (15 minutes out of every hour, a limited number of activations per RL day).

    I am also asking Roark about where racial resistances are going.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    Note: Roark says he coded racials to be x/10 (where X varies from 1-3 as under the current system).
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited April 2015
    Wildewood Iron bark should have a stronger effect than 1/8. In the dmp system, it provides one of the largest offensive dmp boosts available from guild skills, and only applies to a single damage type (of which the guild has no 100% typed attack). Reducing it to the same strength as effects that formerly granted only 5dmp is a big nerf.

    Other comparable woodchem skills could take looking at also, though at least a few of the others DO have a 100% damage attack to that type.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    It's currently that way because offensive should (generally) mirror defensive as far as the conversion goes, as much as possible.  DMP between 10 and 20 is the most prevalent as far as resistances go, and so that became the 1/8 level.  5 dmp also got converted to that because I wanted guild skills to be useful.  However, I'd honestly be more inclined to make things that are 5 dmp 1/7 instead of 1/8 if we need to have some kind of a separation between the two; if I increase 20 dmp, I'm also going to need to increase the levels higher than that (and I have that end of things pretty well in the place I'd like it for the moment as far as defenses go).
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited April 2015
    While 20 dmp at a chunk might be fairly prevalent for defense, I don't think that's really the case for offense: the largest damage boosts I can't think of (besides skills in the other woodchem skillsets or alcohol) is 15. Iron bark is one of the few things that allows Wildewoods to produce moderate amounts of damage. Giving it the same power to one damage type that earth pulse has to all is painful flattening. 


    EDIT: Wildewood fireflies should also probably be 2/10, not 1/10. Not only is it a trans skill, it is a temporary resistance to a single type of damage. 2/10 inside the system is a better translation to a flat 10% outside of dmp than 1/10 is.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    edited April 2015
    Fireflies are 10% resistance under the current system.  That should make it 1/8.  I already increased it to 1/10 because it's temporary and a trans skill.  That said, yes, I did not notice that it's outside of DMP.  I'd be willing to re-examine it, but what I need is less of a single-skill-by-single-skill thing and more a discussion of categories.  Tweaking on a skill-by-skill basis is going to lead to oversights and, inevitably, accusations of "favouritism" or "listening to the squeakiest wheel".  I don't want anyone left behind, and I would like it to be clear that everyone's getting treated equally.

    Is the suggestion that all the *mantic/*wood abilities that are 20% be made 1/10, or 2/8?  Is the suggestion that everything that is currently outside DMP be moved up by "one level"?
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  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk Member Posts: 1,659 Transcendent
    I'm not sure where all this tabled discussion is going, and I haven't been following this all as closely as I should, but:

    A.) Putrefaction might be very tricky to work into the system.

    B.) Everything must be worked into the system and things will definitely need envoying, see: Nihilists

    C.) There should be no 100% main attack anything. No tuning. No 100% Divinus. No 100% Excorable, Destro to be changed. Other things I can't think of. It has always been to easy to min/max, especially with the 100% attacks 
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    Silvanus said:

    I'm not sure where all this tabled discussion is going, and I haven't been following this all as closely as I should, but:


    A.) Putrefaction might be very tricky to work into the system.

    B.) Everything must be worked into the system and things will definitely need envoying, see: Nihilists

    C.) There should be no 100% main attack anything. No tuning. No 100% Divinus. No 100% Excorable, Destro to be changed. Other things I can't think of. It has always been to easy to min/max, especially with the 100% attacks 
    A) Putrefaction was made one of the strongest buffs under the system (only things stronger are the time-limited things like Numen).  With putre up, it should be pretty easy for Nihilists and Ur'Guard to get to the max level of 10 (30%) resist to both blunt and cutting.

    B) That's known!  There will probably be a fair bit.

    C) I have no control over that, this part is nothing except for transitioning what currently exists.  That's something that needs to go through Envoys / Admin discussion.  The only thing being done here is mapping from old to new to try and keep things as (relationally) equivalent as possible.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited April 2015
    Xenthos said:

    Fireflies are 10% resistance under the current system.  That should make it 1/8.  I already increased it to 1/10 because it's temporary and a trans skill.  That said, yes, I did not notice that it's outside of DMP.  I'd be willing to re-examine it, but what I need is less of a single-skill-by-single-skill thing and more a discussion of categories.  Tweaking on a skill-by-skill basis is going to lead to oversights and, inevitably, accusations of "favouritism" or "listening to the squeakiest wheel".  I don't want anyone left behind, and I would like it to be clear that everyone's getting treated equally.

    Is the suggestion that all the *mantic/*wood abilities that are 20% be made 1/10, or 2/8?  Is the suggestion that everything that is currently outside DMP be moved up by "one level"?

    The suggestion is that skills should be looked at in the context they served in the old system.  Numen was bumped up on a skill-by-skill basis, presumably for previously being a strong, outside of dmp effect. I similarly contest that 10% is the same thing as 10dmp, and that a higher designation would more accurately reflect this difference. I am not advocating that all Woodchem 20dmp abilities (not the same as 20%) be bumped up, but only because I am nowhere near as familiar with those skillsets as those I am envoy for. It's almost certainly safe to do to Wyrdenwood what is done to the Wildewood counterpart though, the two skillsets mirror eachother more closely and act to the same purpose than the woods do with the chems.

    Every guild should have an envoy who can look at their own skills as equally as I look at ours.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    edited April 2015
    Numen was not actually buffed up on a skill-by-skill basis.  It was buffed up alongside other high-impact time-limited-abilities, and they were done together.  I am not going to pick-and-choose, buffing one guild's ability and not doing others which are mirrors.  I specifically said that I'm not going to feed the squeaky wheel here, which is what that last sentence advocates, and the point of this is to keep things relatively balanced as to what they are now, not to give one guild a buff / advantage in relation to others.
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  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,161 Transcendent
    How is dodge working in the overhaul? Is it 1/8 on all denizen attacks? 1/8 on a dex-based percentage of attacks? Something else entirely?
  • DaganevDaganev Member Posts: 755 Master
    Where are the numbers for various armors and shields?
  • BaelorBaelor Member Posts: 268 Master
    Daganev said:

    Where are the numbers for various armors and shields?

    They're coming after the combat and internal affliction overhaul.
  • KallisteKalliste Member Posts: 115 Capable
    Xenthos said:
    My current instructions are that everything should be under the new system.  Note that there is very little effective difference between a 4/10 and an 8/10 though (they're both going to end up providing about the same effect in the end).

    That is different on the offensive end (for example, with Puissance) since there are far fewer filler skills and common abilities to bump that up.  That said, since they are temporary, I really don't have any objection to doing as Sojiro suggested and make them 8/10 (or similar), but that would only be for the temporary (time-limited) abilities that consume power to activate.

    Edit: I'll also note that there's nothing saying that some of these skills can't be envoyed to add some other effect back in, but my guess is that damage-resist outside of the system is a non-starter so it would need to be something in addition to the resistance.  Some sort of periodic health restoration, maybe.
    Hmmm.....
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,969 Transcendent
    Kalliste said:
    Xenthos said:
    My current instructions are that everything should be under the new system.  Note that there is very little effective difference between a 4/10 and an 8/10 though (they're both going to end up providing about the same effect in the end).

    That is different on the offensive end (for example, with Puissance) since there are far fewer filler skills and common abilities to bump that up.  That said, since they are temporary, I really don't have any objection to doing as Sojiro suggested and make them 8/10 (or similar), but that would only be for the temporary (time-limited) abilities that consume power to activate.

    Edit: I'll also note that there's nothing saying that some of these skills can't be envoyed to add some other effect back in, but my guess is that damage-resist outside of the system is a non-starter so it would need to be something in addition to the resistance.  Some sort of periodic health restoration, maybe.
    Hmmm.....
    Yep!  Seems weird to necro a thread to quote that, but if it makes you happy, I guess.
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