Combat Balance/Death Penalties

Oneiroi

This discussion was created from comments split from: Tweets VI: The Tweetsixteenth.

Arcanis

Taevyn said:

Arcanis said:

Tremula said:

So...I missed something important just a minute or two before I logged in.

Note sure if attempt at taunting, but I did let my essence drop that low for testing purposes (why would I allow myself to die in enemy territory repeatedly?). As to the deaths, i've already submitted an issue of bug concerning it.

As to this:

Sakaki said:

Tremula said:

-snip-

One word for that. OUCH. (or "idiot", considering the circumstances I heard surrounding those deaths.)

Really Sakaki...you're calling others stupid...really?

Why do you need to test something that has already been done before. Seems a little silly to me.

You dont even know what the test is, so how is it you think I have been doing it before?

Yarith said:

I didn't want to post in response 'cause I thought it'd be distasteful on my part.  

But I'm 100% sure there isn't a bug, just saying. :S

Im rather certain it is, and if not, then the idea of "random chance it may or may not take longer" concerning the healing of an affliction would just make me lose even more faith in the combat mechanics of Lusternia.

Taevyn

Arcanis said:

Taevyn said:

Arcanis said:

Tremula said:

So...I missed something important just a minute or two before I logged in.

Note sure if attempt at taunting, but I did let my essence drop that low for testing purposes (why would I allow myself to die in enemy territory repeatedly?). As to the deaths, i've already submitted an issue of bug concerning it.

As to this:

Sakaki said:

Tremula said:

-snip-

One word for that. OUCH. (or "idiot", considering the circumstances I heard surrounding those deaths.)

Really Sakaki...you're calling others stupid...really?

Why do you need to test something that has already been done before. Seems a little silly to me.

You dont even know what the test is, so how is it you think I have been doing it before?

Yarith said:

I didn't want to post in response 'cause I thought it'd be distasteful on my part.  

But I'm 100% sure there isn't a bug, just saying. :S

Im rather certain it is, and if not, then the idea of "random chance it may or may not take longer" concerning the healing of an affliction would just make me lose even more faith in the combat mechanics of Lusternia.

I never said you had been doing it before. Please don't put words in my mouth. I was implying that, most tests relating to Demigod, have more than likely been done before.

Ssaliss

If you let us know what it was you were testing, odds are we'd be able to answer your question(s).

Sakaki

I retract my 'idiot' comment since I was given what was apparently misinformation regarding the multiple deaths and apologise to Arcanis for any offence caused.  OUCH still stands.

Maligorn

I feel like he was testing blanknote earache time.

Everytime you get earache from a bard, it's 5 seconds base + 1-5 s randomly. Perfectfifth I think adds 2 seconds to the timer.

Enyalida

And successive pfifths continue to add to said timer, iirc.

Ssaliss

Uh... why do you have to die in order to test blanknote? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Just grab a friendly bard and test to your hearts content.

Arcanis

Maligorn said:

I feel like he was testing blanknote earache time.

Everytime you get earache from a bard, it's 5 seconds base + 1-5 s randomly. Perfectfifth I think adds 2 seconds to the timer.

For demigod, Im more testing xp loss as mortal compared to the standard 500k essence loss for Demigod in enemy territory (plus the ~200k essence lost to phoenix). From what I have been observing, it seems 'mortal' players dont have to suffer that much a penalty, or it is easier to get back. Also to test praying for salvation compared to phoenix loss. Currently raiding is just too expensive for a demigod (not to mention gives little benefit).


Besides, not like it is hard to get demigod back. I can get it back in 3 days tops.



As for the Bard thing, that's another matter.

Yarith

My figures were more along the lines of 6-8 for BN and 2-5(maybe less) for P5, but it's only a little here and there.

I was abstaining from commenting but eh.

As a TK user you have (Correct me if I am wrong) a 100% way to remove me out of the room provided there aren't any icewalls or stonewalls.
You had eight seconds unhindered (Shadowrave aside) to stop dirge.  Even if you can't push/fling you have access to have gust enchant, beastmastery gust and fear enchant as well as blindness poison and any other guild skills I may not be familiar with.

If you spend the whole eight seconds doing nothing then you're probably bound to die to any tactic if you're perfectfifth'd.

Ssaliss

Arcanis said:

Maligorn said:

I feel like he was testing blanknote earache time.

Everytime you get earache from a bard, it's 5 seconds base + 1-5 s randomly. Perfectfifth I think adds 2 seconds to the timer.

For demigod, Im more testing xp loss as mortal compared to the standard 500k essence loss for Demigod in enemy territory (plus the ~200k essence lost to phoenix). From what I have been observing, it seems 'mortal' players dont have to suffer that much a penalty, or it is easier to get back. Also to test praying for salvation compared to phoenix loss. Currently raiding is just too expensive for a demigod (not to mention gives little benefit).


Besides, not like it is hard to get demigod back. I can get it back in 3 days tops.



As for the Bard thing, that's another matter.

I think pretty much everyone thinks that the essence loss for demi+ in enemy territory. I think it's even been mentioned in the overhaul comments (or if it was another thread; I'm 90% sure it was one where Estarra&co participated).

Ssaliss

Here's the thread in question.

Cyndarin

Earache has a variable timer with a minimum and maximum. You will always recover before a deathsong completes. Perfect fifth extends earache time. We have known this for many years, could have just asked.

Incidentally, TK has fling which ignores summon resistance and is not impacted by walls.

Or just rub a fear enchant.

Faith in Lusternian combat restored!

Synkarin

Celina said:

You will always recover before a deathsong completes.

Unless you're a mugwump and get a good long earache tick

Maligorn

Oh, well. Actually, I think Arcanis is right in what he's testing -- I remember dying like ten times during a fleshpot raid (enemied to Vortex, Gaudiguch and Illums), though we killed defenders and 4 fleshpots -- I actually came out a teensy bit ahead in exp. Exp loss may in fact be different for mortals versus demis.

You could've just, like, asked.

Enyalida

It's way more than 500k in enemy territory. It's way way more, at least twice as much. The 500k is a standardized loss.

Arcanis

Yarith said:

My figures were more along the lines of 6-8 for BN and 2-5(maybe less) for P5, but it's only a little here and there.

I was abstaining from commenting but eh.

As a TK user you have (Correct me if I am wrong) a 100% way to remove me out of the room provided there aren't any icewalls or stonewalls.
You had eight seconds unhindered (Shadowrave aside) to stop dirge.  Even if you can't push/fling you have access to have gust enchant, beastmastery gust and fear enchant as well as blindness poison and any other guild skills I may not be familiar with.

If you spend the whole eight seconds doing nothing then you're probably bound to die to any tactic if you're perfectfifth'd.

The point of the matter wasnt a way to cancel you by use of other abilities, but to regain deafness by the common protection of eating earwort, which is the common use of it. The fact my earache did -not- go away and you were able to do a complete deathsong from start to end, shows an obvious bug. It's basically as if saying I could chasm someone unhindered before they can writhe our of a leglock.

Celina said:

Earache has a variable timer with a minimum and maximum. You will always recover before a deathsong completes.

Except I didnt, thus the issue.

Maligorn said:

Oh, well. Actually, I think Arcanis is right in what he's testing -- I remember dying like ten times during a fleshpot raid (enemied to Vortex, Gaudiguch and Illums), though we killed defenders and 4 fleshpots -- I actually came out a teensy bit ahead in exp. Exp loss may in fact be different for mortals versus demis.

You could've just, like, asked.

Another observation I've had is actually Baelfyre's constant deaths on Celestia, and yet he still seems to come back swinging. Raiding may in fact be much more suitable for mortals.

Ssaliss

Enyalida said:

It's way more than 500k in enemy territory. It's way way more, at least twice as much. The 500k is a standardized loss.

Yes and no. The loss is 5% of your essence, with a minimum of 500k and a maximum of 2m, unless I misremember.

Elanorwen

Pretty sure demi/ascendant deaths scale in enemy territory up to 2m essence per death. Comparing them to non-ascendant deaths is about as good an idea as comparing apples to oranges. Any non-demi has a finite amount of experience before they start losing their levels en masse. You need for the whole thing to scale under demi to the point where if a level 5 dies in enemy territory, they're not instantly dropped to level -5. Simple as that. As demis/ascendants have a theoretically limitless reservoir of experience, you need something that will be a punishment for someone with 100m essence as well as someone who has 10m essence, but not to the point where they'll be losing demi in 5 deaths. Enter scaling essence loss for demis, too. Simple as that.

EDIT: Also, what Ssaliss said.

Yarith

-Edit: Quotes and I don't get along-
@Arcanis
Apply the same logic to any other timed instakill. The mechanic for deafness/blanknote/p5 has been around for gosh knows how long and is freely available to every bard guild in the game. There's no difference in the mechanic from each bard guild to another. I think you should have 'bug'ged it if you thought it was really a bug instead of issuing me for it but that's a discussion that isn't for the forums. 

Shaddus

I haven't actually been following the last few posts, but complaining there's an "earache bug" and "I can't get out of deathnote so you have to stop using it" is pretty asinine.

That's like saying that because you can't seem to climb out of pits faster than decap goes through, PB trackers can't use it.

Maligorn

blanknote -> pfifth -> dsong isn't a bug, it's a feature!

Maligorn

Shaddus said:

 "I can't get out of deathnote

Cyndarin

Arcanis said:

Yarith said:

My figures were more along the lines of 6-8 for BN and 2-5(maybe less) for P5, but it's only a little here and there.

I was abstaining from commenting but eh.

As a TK user you have (Correct me if I am wrong) a 100% way to remove me out of the room provided there aren't any icewalls or stonewalls.
You had eight seconds unhindered (Shadowrave aside) to stop dirge.  Even if you can't push/fling you have access to have gust enchant, beastmastery gust and fear enchant as well as blindness poison and any other guild skills I may not be familiar with.

If you spend the whole eight seconds doing nothing then you're probably bound to die to any tactic if you're perfectfifth'd.

The point of the matter wasnt a way to cancel you by use of other abilities, but to regain deafness by the common protection of eating earwort, which is the common use of it. The fact my earache did -not- go away and you were able to do a complete deathsong from start to end, shows an obvious bug. It's basically as if saying I could chasm someone unhindered before they can writhe our of a leglock.

Celina said:

Earache has a variable timer with a minimum and maximum. You will always recover before a deathsong completes.

Except I didnt, thus the issue.

Maligorn said:

Oh, well. Actually, I think Arcanis is right in what he's testing -- I remember dying like ten times during a fleshpot raid (enemied to Vortex, Gaudiguch and Illums), though we killed defenders and 4 fleshpots -- I actually came out a teensy bit ahead in exp. Exp loss may in fact be different for mortals versus demis.

You could've just, like, asked.

Another observation I've had is actually Baelfyre's constant deaths on Celestia, and yet he still seems to come back swinging. Raiding may in fact be much more suitable for mortals.

Because pfifth extends the earache. Kind of like I said.

Being unable to work around a mechanic isn't the same as the mechanic being broken. It's been like this for 5+ years. Somehow I've managed to not get solo deathsonged in all that time.

Buy a fear enchant and move on.

Shaddus

Or gust or psychicfling

Arcanis

Celina said:

Arcanis said:

Yarith said:

My figures were more along the lines of 6-8 for BN and 2-5(maybe less) for P5, but it's only a little here and there.

I was abstaining from commenting but eh.

As a TK user you have (Correct me if I am wrong) a 100% way to remove me out of the room provided there aren't any icewalls or stonewalls.
You had eight seconds unhindered (Shadowrave aside) to stop dirge.  Even if you can't push/fling you have access to have gust enchant, beastmastery gust and fear enchant as well as blindness poison and any other guild skills I may not be familiar with.

If you spend the whole eight seconds doing nothing then you're probably bound to die to any tactic if you're perfectfifth'd.

The point of the matter wasnt a way to cancel you by use of other abilities, but to regain deafness by the common protection of eating earwort, which is the common use of it. The fact my earache did -not- go away and you were able to do a complete deathsong from start to end, shows an obvious bug. It's basically as if saying I could chasm someone unhindered before they can writhe our of a leglock.

Celina said:

Earache has a variable timer with a minimum and maximum. You will always recover before a deathsong completes.

Except I didnt, thus the issue.

Maligorn said:

Oh, well. Actually, I think Arcanis is right in what he's testing -- I remember dying like ten times during a fleshpot raid (enemied to Vortex, Gaudiguch and Illums), though we killed defenders and 4 fleshpots -- I actually came out a teensy bit ahead in exp. Exp loss may in fact be different for mortals versus demis.

You could've just, like, asked.

Another observation I've had is actually Baelfyre's constant deaths on Celestia, and yet he still seems to come back swinging. Raiding may in fact be much more suitable for mortals.

Because pfifth extends the earache. Kind of like I said.

Being unable to work around a mechanic isn't the same as the mechanic being broken. It's been like this for 5+ years. Somehow I've managed to not get solo deathsonged in all that time.

Buy a fear enchant and move on.

How is it logical that the one basic form of defense to a bard, being deafness, will be completed negated long enough for them to do a timed instantkill that requires no setup? Also I've seen it in use, I am able to negate it by simply eating earwort, and then suddenly in these scenarios I am not? If randomness is the mechanic here, then just remove it, because anything random in something as delicate as combat balance is just asking for trouble, otherwise it'll have to be an abuse of a bug, because i've fought several bards before and this is the first time I've not been able to reapply deafness in time to negate a deathsong that, quite literally, was a walk in, blaknote/pfifth and wait.

No, the idea that the solution of "buy a fear enchantmentz" is -not- combat balance. You cant expect to tell everyone getting into combat "oh you died because you didnt think to try and fear them. What? You didnt think of that? sucks to be you". -THIS- is what is wrong with Lusternian combat and -THIS- is why people arent caring to give 2 shits about it anymore. Nonetheless, I shouldnt 'have to' have the ability to fear or fling the individual. Deafness -should work to negate the song- after an earache. There is obviously something wrong here, though it seems alot of lusternia mechanics are just broken these days.

Shaddus

What

Kalnid

Arcanis said:

because anything random in something as delicate as combat balance is just asking for trouble

Rubeus failure, lichdom mental reject procs, astrology sign rays, half of the abilities *chems have, everything warriors do...

Shaddus

Do you have a log of this bug?

Shaddus

On a personal note, I actually meant psychic push instead of fling. I don't know if fling would stop deathnote tics if you were in the room for them.

Tremula

Arcanis said:

Celina said:

Arcanis said:

Yarith said:

My figures were more along the lines of 6-8 for BN and 2-5(maybe less) for P5, but it's only a little here and there.

I was abstaining from commenting but eh.

As a TK user you have (Correct me if I am wrong) a 100% way to remove me out of the room provided there aren't any icewalls or stonewalls.
You had eight seconds unhindered (Shadowrave aside) to stop dirge.  Even if you can't push/fling you have access to have gust enchant, beastmastery gust and fear enchant as well as blindness poison and any other guild skills I may not be familiar with.

If you spend the whole eight seconds doing nothing then you're probably bound to die to any tactic if you're perfectfifth'd.

The point of the matter wasnt a way to cancel you by use of other abilities, but to regain deafness by the common protection of eating earwort, which is the common use of it. The fact my earache did -not- go away and you were able to do a complete deathsong from start to end, shows an obvious bug. It's basically as if saying I could chasm someone unhindered before they can writhe our of a leglock.

Celina said:

Earache has a variable timer with a minimum and maximum. You will always recover before a deathsong completes.

Except I didnt, thus the issue.

Maligorn said:

Oh, well. Actually, I think Arcanis is right in what he's testing -- I remember dying like ten times during a fleshpot raid (enemied to Vortex, Gaudiguch and Illums), though we killed defenders and 4 fleshpots -- I actually came out a teensy bit ahead in exp. Exp loss may in fact be different for mortals versus demis.

You could've just, like, asked.

Another observation I've had is actually Baelfyre's constant deaths on Celestia, and yet he still seems to come back swinging. Raiding may in fact be much more suitable for mortals.

Because pfifth extends the earache. Kind of like I said.

Being unable to work around a mechanic isn't the same as the mechanic being broken. It's been like this for 5+ years. Somehow I've managed to not get solo deathsonged in all that time.

Buy a fear enchant and move on.

How is it logical that the one basic form of defense to a bard, being deafness, will be completed negated long enough for them to do a timed instantkill that requires no setup? Also I've seen it in use, I am able to negate it by simply eating earwort, and then suddenly in these scenarios I am not? If randomness is the mechanic here, then just remove it, because anything random in something as delicate as combat balance is just asking for trouble, otherwise it'll have to be an abuse of a bug, because i've fought several bards before and this is the first time I've not been able to reapply deafness in time to negate a deathsong that, quite literally, was a walk in, blaknote/pfifth and wait.

No, the idea that the solution of "buy a fear enchantmentz" is -not- combat balance. You cant expect to tell everyone getting into combat "oh you died because you didnt think to try and fear them. What? You didnt think of that? sucks to be you". -THIS- is what is wrong with Lusternian combat and -THIS- is why people arent caring to give 2 shits about it anymore. Nonetheless, I shouldnt 'have to' have the ability to fear or fling the individual. Deafness -should work to negate the song- after an earache. There is obviously something wrong here, though it seems alot of lusternia mechanics are just broken these days.

I know I don't speak for anyone but the complicated nature of Lusternian combat is what makes me love it so much. One defence isn't the end-all defence for any particular thing, there are mutliple ways to combat most everything in Lusternia, and the deadlier they are the more likely they are to have multiple counters, usually. Randomness, especially, is really fun to see, though I suppose as a glamours Cacophonist I'm a bit biased there.

You shouldn't "have to" have the ability to deal with any particular skill to survive, no, but you are given the ability to survive most of these relatively early in every single guild. If you knowingly go into combat, you shouldn't complain that you "shouldn't have to" do anything. You go in to kill or be killed, to win or lose by even one tiny mistake. Earlier I died to @Kierstin because I forgot to take my extra tinderbox out of my satchel. Did I sit and whine or make lengthy forums post (or apparently file an issue) because I shouldn't HAVE TO do this or that to fight her? No, I learned from my mistake and went on.