One with Nature/Enhanced Regeneration

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Comments

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Saran said:
    Celina said:
    Baelor said:
    The complaint in the OP was that the regeneration racial was suffering from overflow and being wasted, this is an action to resolve that issue, nothing further.
    I get why you are doing it. What I'm saying is that if you are going to nerf something, there should be a reason to nerf that particular thing. If regen levels are too strong, that is when you nerf regen levels. Which can't possibly be the case right now because we all went into this overhaul with maxed out regen and it was never ever a problem. 

    I really thought the goal was to maintain the status quo as much as possible and adjust from there. Dropping the status quo for everyone just to force lobos and elfen/faelings into the system seems counter productive and a net loss for the game, considering those are only 3 races. I really wish you'd just take our suggestion and not make regen a demi power. 

    Because it sucks. Which is plainly apparenlty now that we are dropping everyone else's regen just to make their regen better in context. 

    Are we buffing the % per level to compensate?





    Kinda gotta ask... what's the point of having regen buffs then?
    I feel like everyone wants to be at the top and it seems like that makes a system where it can vary kinda pointless.
    "I really thought the goal was to maintain the status quo as much as possible and adjust from there."

    It's really simple. The more things we change at the same time, the less the status quo is maintained, and the more adjusting must be done. Here's the big issue, the ceiling on everyone is being lowered across the board, even things that weren't a particular issue such as regen. This is how things snowball. For example: Shadowdancers have already lost their niche of being tanky casters, the difference between a shadowdancer and a mage is now pretty small when everyone is maxed out. Before that can be adjusted for or otherwise compensated for, now the regen ceiling is dropping to make room for 3 out of 15+ races with a hefty damage nerf looming on the horizon. 

    It's not about suddenly adding interest through variation to a non issue mechanic, but perhaps that's because I subscribe to the idea of "if it's not broken, don't fix it." 
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  • EodhEodh Member Posts: 340 Gifted
    Things were broken, though, and that's the point of the Combat Overhaul, I think. Things stacked on other things on such ungodly levels at times. We just got used to 13000 hp faelings and 50% damage mitigation things, and more often than not, instead of breaking an outlier, we instead buff everything to match that outlier.

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    I won't go into a detailed history of the overhaul, but the intent was never to nerf everything. It was to address outliers. It's just become that as everything is all pulled into the same 10 tier system, and then regen is not getting the hatchet to squeeze in elfen/faeling/lobos. That goal alone is fine, everything operating on the same understandable system. Nerfing things that were not problems and could have been easily shifted to the 10 tier system with any hulabaloo, like regen, to make room for new problems (crappy demi skills) isn't an avenue to success, IMO. It creates more work for us. 

    You have to understand that regen isn't being whacked down for balance reasons. Regen was fine, races were changed, regen was then changed to accomodate 3 races for a power no one is interested in. Which is why I am curious if regen numbers are going to be looked at and adjusted for everyone else that jsut had the ceiling fall on their head.
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  • BaelorBaelor Member Posts: 268 Master
    Regen was never meant to be this easy to stack, even if we didn't have regen tier 4 racials, we'd still be looking at regen.

    Regen now goes to 10%, 13% with artifacts, this generally wasn't attainable before, with a few exceptions. We also then had enchants acting outside the system that added unnecessary complications.


    Meanwhile most players are now experiencing an increase in base health, damage has been lowered, regeneration has more value naturally. We certainly don't want to have everyone sat on 10% without much effort.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,718 Mythical
    edited June 2015
    Yeah.... my assumption is mostly that the complaints about the racial regens have just highlighted that the system wasn't working as intended.

    It's less a nerf to make these race traits look appealing but more because they should be appealing and this means status quo is meant to be lower than it currently is.

    In a way, people that have high regens who shouldn't could be considered outliers because they're beyond the intended limits of their class.
    Similarly, I suppose, if Shadowdancers are meant to be tanky compared to mages then this could mean that mages need a nerf to bring their numbers into line.
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    Yeah, so, if regen is being nerfed to make elfen/faeling/lobo regen better, that's not good.

    But it sounds like @Baelor is saying: Upon investigation, you all have much higher regen than we wanted, so we're gonna fix it, and this will have the side effect of making these race powers significantly better.

  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    edited June 2015
    Who said wiccans had to be tankier though?  History is precedent, not intention. 

    Wiccans get healing and far more brutal offense (offense designed to put someone down) compared to a mages sustained style of combat. Druids should be the real comparison, and I would say that seems about right.  Guardians and Wiccans are the beasts of battle, with the most capacity to shut down or rapidly kill someone. Mages and druids are longer term who can meld. Bards were a mixed bag, with celest and hallifax having access to cheese...... err aeon and acting more like guardians (often setup for soulless, rather than the default bard aurics). Warriors were based on attrition. Monks were based on afflictions and locks. 

    We have brought down damage, we have lowered resistance outliers (look at drunk dwarves now), and we have made regenerations cappable (prior maxes were in the 30% range). The design appears to be be removing outliers in order to balance skills, and making skill more important in areas where possible. Spamming staff is far less viable now in general, and when the vitals and stats update comes out we will see some major shifts. 

    If damage is intended to be a set number (potentially with scaling) then low health will have a disadvantage, but it will not be the difference between 2 destro's and 5 destro's. Everyones +stats is viewable with BODYSCAN VITALS FULL, and many common skills offer general buffs (veteran in combat adds +health).  

    All in all this will take some adjusting, but seems fairly on point for the design.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,971 Transcendent
    edited June 2015
    Baelor said:
    Regen was never meant to be this easy to stack, even if we didn't have regen tier 4 racials, we'd still be looking at regen.

    Regen now goes to 10%, 13% with artifacts, this generally wasn't attainable before, with a few exceptions. We also then had enchants acting outside the system that added unnecessary complications.


    Meanwhile most players are now experiencing an increase in base health, damage has been lowered, regeneration has more value naturally. We certainly don't want to have everyone sat on 10% without much effort.
    There were regenerations that occurred outside the system.  They are now being pulled into the system.  So, yes, while regeneration based on levels only was 7% previously, everyone also had access to things that buffed it (even commonly available things like enchantments) which bumped effective regeneration up further.  While you mention that things were acting outside the system, it is important to also include them in any analysis comparing before-and-after.

    In addition, while people have more health, that also means that they take more damage from attacks (most PvP attacks have a portion that scales).  So more health means taking more damage.  If you also drop the regeneration value respectively to what players had before (so if prior they had an effective regeneration of 8.5%, and after they have an effective regeneration of 6%), even with increased health making the raw number more they can still come out behind.

    Basically, I have to agree with Celina.  While yes, the regeneration levels would basically be meaningless with the current values, the solution is not to just slash the regeneration percentage of the playerbase as a whole.  The better solution is to ensure that the playerbase as a whole keeps around the average percentage that they have now (somewhere around 8% most likely), and then leave room for the racial bonuses to matter.

    This can be done by making regeneration levels give 1.5% per level and then adjusting skills.  Yes, this means that races with a regeneration bonus will get a buff.  That makes the races more worthwhile, though, and not at the cost of making everyone else less so.

    Edit:  Actually, it was pointed out recently that only Mana and Ego were raw numbers (getting to 8%).  Mercy was actually a percentage itself, which means that effective health regen was way over the 10% being discussed here as the new cap.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Even if the regen races don't lose half of their demipower due to stacking, an extra 5-6% health regen per ten seconds is only about three hundred health regenerated per ten seconds - a pitiful sum, especially for One with Nature, which is further limited by terrain. 
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    How about reducing the elfen/faeling regen to 3/10, and giving them something like a resistance to bad weather in natural environments? That means there's less 'wasted' regen overspill, and, they get another smallish but useful ability. Not sure that the weather thing is good enough though.

  • KallisteKalliste Member Posts: 115 Capable
    Is there any interest in giving bonuses that impact the rate of regeneration rather than the amounts? If the regeneration amounts are hitting the ceiling too early for the racial bonuses to have much impact, could the racial bonus instead be that regeneration ticks slightly faster?
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 871 Fabled
    Kalliste said:
    Is there any interest in giving bonuses that impact the rate of regeneration rather than the amounts? If the regeneration amounts are hitting the ceiling too early for the racial bonuses to have much impact, could the racial bonus instead be that regeneration ticks slightly faster?
    That would directly work against the balancing done and adds to the feature creep mentality.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    I am reviving this thread to talk about these demigod perks, because I am reporting them through the envoy system next cycle, with report #1398.

    Right now, my report looks like this:

    Report #1398
    Skillset:                      Skill: Racial-Demi-Regen
       Guild: Hartstone           Status: Pending

    Problem: The Races who receive a large regeneration level bonus as their demigod power do not ever 
    recieve the full benefit of those powers, leaving them with a weaker effective demigod perk than 
    other races. The 'One with Nature' and 'Enhanced Regeneration' powers lose at least half of their 
    effectiveness, making already weak perks weaker by 50% or more. The baseline regen for every demigod 
    player is 5 levels, meaning that already, 1 of the OwN levels and three Enhanced Regen levels are 
    wasted. Serenwilde Elfen (the encouraged pairing of org and race) additionally get a passive 2/8 
    health and mana regen, wasting another two levels of the demi perk. Any additional skill, blessing, 
    or item regen levels further devalue the effect, creating less mechanical reason to play these races.
    Beyond the wasted levels, the effect of regen is demonstrably weaker than other demigod racial perks,
    adding about 65 health regenerated per level per 10 seconds for most players. This report seeks to 
    discuss and develop new racial powers for these races, not address the regeneration system as a 
    whole.

    Solution #1: Replace the One with Nature Regeneration bonus with the ability to use and weave Mystic 
    Pathways. Decreased balance time to use pathways and faster path weaving for those who otherwise 
    already have the ability (through the artifact or skillset).
    Solution #2: Provide a solution here.
    Solution #3: Provide a solution here.


    The corollary problem is that I don't have a tremendous number of different ideas to replace these perks with at the moment. I've spitballed a few for the two affected perks, and am looking for feedback! I'll post some of my Lobo replacement ideas later today. I'm interested to hear what other suggestions and input the player base has on this problem, a few months later.
  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,163 Transcendent
    Demigod: You gain access to TELEPORT FAETHORN, which teleports you to the Well of Souls in the Faethorn Realm. This ability works anywhere on Ethereal, Prime or Elemental.
    Demigod+: TELEPORT FAETHORN now works on Cosmic, Astral and even on Aetherbubbles. From Ethereal, you can teleport to fixed locations (such as a Nexus or the Aetherplex) on Prime.

    Demigod: You gain the ability to use TRUEGROUND to return the environment of a room to its true nature for 2p. If you already had this ability through another source, the power cost is reduced by one.
    Demigod+: The power cost for TRUEGROUND is reduced by one. If you already had the ability from another source, this makes it free.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    What about a demigod+ power that is basically a censer. That'd be pretty useful.
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  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 1,847 Transcendent
    edited November 2015
    While I can sympathesize with the idea that the Elfen/Faeling demi perk is easily bypassed, if not ignorable, I would like to point out that this -is- a Demi perk, given freely upon level 100, and not a Demi+. If it was a Demi+ perk, and thus purchased with 1000 credits, then I would full heartly agree that it should be something far more useful, however in this case, it is not, and I see no reason why such a large focus and coder time is being put on a free racial perk of a race that already receives a pretty amazing Demi+ perk.  I would also like to state that it is -much- easier to find 'Natural' environments than is being let on by the OP. Natural in this case generally means -not- constructed, and by looking at the list of terrains in lusternia, I can see only 5 (maybe 6) terrains out of the 21 given terrains that their Demi -and- Demi+ ability would not function. I have tested faeling and I even received this regen bonus in the Sea of Despair for example.

    The regen perk isnt even that bad when compared to other perks out there, and is actually rather good. In fact, Elfen even have it far better off than, say, Illithoid, whom gain stacks to a vital that currently only has any real connotation with Debating mechanics. I wont even go into detail how near pointless their Demi+ perk is, with its barely noticeable 'influence' advantage.


    At most, if there is some illogical insistence on having a change done to their free Demi perk, then I would suggest that it be changed from an additional value to Regens, to simply become a bonus placed on top of current regeneration. Something along the lines of: "While standing in natural terrain, will receive 5% of total health/mana/ego as bonus regen even 10 seconds". Could even add an ambiance line of "You feel the energies of nature surging beneath, revitalizing you".
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,139 Transcendent
    I think part of this comes from the feeling that 'regeneration' is really meek compared some (most) other races 'free' perks out there. Just learned yesterday about taurians enrage for example. Sure you can argue wasting time on a 'free' perk, but then on the other hand, I would think that each race having it's own interesting little advantage. I highly doubt you'll see anybody going to wonderpipe faeling ;-)

    Enyalida provided, coming from the nature of regeneration, which is either too powerful or not worth much. I am pretty sure there can be found replacement demi perks that make people feel they actually got something without requiring a lot of coding.

    I don't think it should / needs to be something big, I rather think it should just be something that makes the race have it's own unique little advantage. (counting for every race's demi perk). Regeneration? regeneration is about as boring as it gets even if it were useful. And am sure there can be solutions that don't require a lot of time / coding.
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  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 1,847 Transcendent
    @Aeldra yes, while I can sympathize with that, it will however bring to question all current racial perks (let's say just demi-level in this scenario), and why others that are sub-par to Taurian enrage not getting a buff too?

    - Loboshigaru has already been mentioned, which also follows with this regeneration concept. In fact, I consider Loboshigaru to be the vaguest and most flavorless racial traits amongst the races.

    - Mugwumps basically get a magicrown, and let's face it, mana cost of abilities is not that hard to keep up with nor that expensive.

    - Illithoid Ego is pretty pointless unless you are a Psionics user, and even then it is more relevant if you are a TK user or a Psychometabolism user. Their Demi+ at that is pretty unnoticeable, which is rather shocking since it requires 40 corpses to even get full, and you only get it for 1 hour, meaning you have to have corpses on hand to constantly keep it up, else start all over.

    - Human Demi 'essence reduction on death' im told is pretty insignificant, and the Karma and Esteem boost is too small to notice. I havent really tested with it.


    Again, I dont mind changing, but for the actual right reasons and fairness shown on all fronts for it.
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,139 Transcendent
    @arcanis as I said, in my opinion, should apply to all races having something little uniquish. Faeling's definitely not the only one that's "meh".
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  • LorahLorah Member Posts: 26 Apprentice
    Why not give them something koooooky like a chance to naturally evade bindings similar to harmony's akchu? Or maybe some kind of forest-based version of flight from night, like uh, shrubwalking?  If it's weak you can give them some token type of 'earthy fortitude' where eating wafer/herb restores hunger/drunk - though given that those are going that doesn't really do anything. You could make them temporarily like the dryad fae, allowing natural forest type spells to be used at some cost. I dunno.

    Those examples aren't meant to be actual plugs to go forward, but, there's a whole range of things that you could come up with for any race. No reason not to get creative.

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Arcanis said:
    While I can sympathesize with the idea that the Elfen/Faeling demi perk is easily bypassed, if not ignorable, I would like to point out that this -is- a Demi perk, given freely upon level 100, and not a Demi+. If it was a Demi+ perk, and thus purchased with 1000 credits, then I would full heartly agree that it should be something far more useful, however in this case, it is not, and I see no reason why such a large focus and coder time is being put on a free racial perk of a race that already receives a pretty amazing Demi+ perk.  I would also like to state that it is -much- easier to find 'Natural' environments than is being let on by the OP. Natural in this case generally means -not- constructed, and by looking at the list of terrains in lusternia, I can see only 5 (maybe 6) terrains out of the 21 given terrains that their Demi -and- Demi+ ability would not function. I have tested faeling and I even received this regen bonus in the Sea of Despair for example.

    The regen perk isnt even that bad when compared to other perks out there, and is actually rather good. In fact, Elfen even have it far better off than, say, Illithoid, whom gain stacks to a vital that currently only has any real connotation with Debating mechanics. I wont even go into detail how near pointless their Demi+ perk is, with its barely noticeable 'influence' advantage.


    At most, if there is some illogical insistence on having a change done to their free Demi perk, then I would suggest that it be changed from an additional value to Regens, to simply become a bonus placed on top of current regeneration. Something along the lines of: "While standing in natural terrain, will receive 5% of total health/mana/ego as bonus regen even 10 seconds". Could even add an ambiance line of "You feel the energies of nature surging beneath, revitalizing you".


    Doozy of a post. First, the case has never been made that the number of areas the current effect is functional is small. Yes, One with Nature works in a wide variety of terrains, as it functions if the base unaltered terrain is natural OR if the room is wyrded/forested. The argument is both that regeneration is a weak power compared to other demigod powers, for strength or utility, and that even if the 6/10 and 8/10 regeneration abilities were considered on par (which I don't, but those who balanced the powers do by evidence of them being placed in the same slot) - Elfen, Faelings, Lobos never get that full 6/10 or 8/10 regen. 

    Yes the Loboshigaru power is also bad, and should be replaced. My idea right now is for a kind of empowered ghostwalk tracking ability, where the Lobo very rapidly (but not instantly) speedwalks to a target within 50 rooms, arriving on balance with their entourage. This would be blocked by anything that blocks ghostwalk, but not by veil etc. 

    Support your assertion that One with Nature is 'quite good'. I'm confident I've done a pretty comprehensive job of explaining why 200 extra health regened on a ten second tick is a weak power. It (and Enhanced Regeneration) comes out far behind when compared  to the majority of the other perks at its level, combat or utility. 

    The others aren't "getting a buff" because they "haven't been put in a report and been agreed to by administration", pretty standard stuff. In my report, I'm addressing the specific problem of regen as a demigod perk, as described in the problem statement of my  report. If the Ilithoid power is weak, there are plenty of other envoy slots open to address that problem. The Nihilists do not have a report up this cycle, for instance.



    @Celina What kind of censer would it be?

    @Iytha I'm not sure how useful a trueground ability would be for anyone, though I get how it's thematically used. As is, does trueground see much use? I don't think so, and I think that the reason doesn't have to do with the power cost or skill availability.

    Similarly, everyone in each forest (where most but not all of the Elfen and Faeling live, being spec races) already has access to TELEPORT MOON/NIGHT, with the same restrictions and use. What is the benefit of being able to teleport to the Well of Souls from places it's already possible to travel away from?  
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Lorah said:
    Why not give them something koooooky like a chance to naturally evade bindings similar to harmony's akchu? Or maybe some kind of forest-based version of flight from night, like uh, shrubwalking?  If it's weak you can give them some token type of 'earthy fortitude' where eating wafer/herb restores hunger/drunk - though given that those are going that doesn't really do anything. You could make them temporarily like the dryad fae, allowing natural forest type spells to be used at some cost. I dunno.

    Those examples aren't meant to be actual plugs to go forward, but, there's a whole range of things that you could come up with for any race. No reason not to get creative.


    Hunger isn't going anywhere, but by virtue of being demigods, any player with that ability wouldn't be able to use it anyways :P. 

    The reason I'm using the first solution slot to suggest pathway use for Demigod Elfens is that mystic pathways were intended to be a very foresty mechanic. However, with the relative lack of ecologists (for complicated reasons), it's a mechanic equally used by forests and cities alike. Giving Elfen and Faelings, who primarily live in Serenwilde and Glomdoring, the ability to use and weave pathways firmly concretes it as a forest mechanic, fitting the lore and feel of the orgs. 
  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,163 Transcendent
    I use trueground all the time and would use it much more often if it didn't cost power.

    TELEPORT FAETHORN is less useful now than I've been reminded that TELEPORT MOON/NIGHT exists. The Demigod+ is sorta useful (you can use it to leave aetherbubbles) but still not that good. Hmm.

    @Celina: The only problem with censers is which to give. Do you base it on org? If so, does that mean a Celest Faeling gets flood? Do you base it on race, so an Elfen Blacktalon gets to make Hartstone forest?

    What about shifting it from regeneration to something else? Sip bonus? Adroitness? EQ/Balance?
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Why do you use trueground? You may be the only person who frequently uses it, to judge from how many of the game's accessible meldable rooms have mage terrain on them (95%?). Giving trueground to all elfen and faelings would only be practically useful during meldwars, making them even more frustrating and stupid - another good reason to avoid that particular solution.

    Notably, I'm not touching the Demi+ abilities, as they aren't regeneration and therefore fall outside of the scope of this report. 

    Sip bonuses are being phased out, I believe. In any event, they were purposefully excluded from the racial traits, with the exception of Loboshigaru's Demi+ ability, which is a flat bonus to ALL healing. Similarly, I'd REALLY rather avoid flat racial eq/bal bonuses with no corresponding maluses. Removing them was a good idea, ideally they'd be taken out of the game all together. 

    Adroitness? Like celerity? That's pretty darn weak, even weaker than regeneration. 
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Faelings get wyrd, elfen get seren..whatever it's called. Easy peasy.
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  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    FYI, ghostwalk isn't a speed walk. It's a silent teleport. Doesn't trip aethersight. Still arrive off balance though.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Why would it trip aethersight? I was under the impression that it worked by quickly pathing you through all of the intervening rooms, but it looks like I thought that because there was an accepted report that proposed that, though they went with a different solution. 
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    Could've sworn with aether sight up you see who's porting to you/summoning you. Could very well be wrong. Just saying that it didn't give the target any inkling that a person had ported to them.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited November 2015
    Oh right, as a 'teleport'. It doesn't work on flow either, so it never occurred to me that it might work on other instant 'magical' movements, there wouldn't be much point. 

    No inkling but the person being in the room now, of course :P When shrouded, flow doesn't give a second or third person message either.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Ghostwalk is one of the abilities I've been grappling with somehow making more useful eventually. Hopefully. Suggestions welcome!

    Not all races are created equal, but most, if not all, racial powers, even at the demi+ level, have a marginal effect on combat at the moment. This includes the apparently powerful taurian demi+... which isn't that powerful, everything said and done. Like the Orclach demi+, it is decentish for bashing, but the marginal increase in dps (or in Orclach's case, marginal decrease in gold outlay for bashing) is hardly going to make you a sudden bashing monster heads and shoulders over other races.

    I would caution against giving any race, including faelings and elfens, a demi+ power that can have a significant impact on combat - the merits (or lack thereof) of a free censer for only forestals or power-less truegrounding should be looked at very closely to prevent such a scenario where every race starts to clamour for some kind of combat effect. Not sure that making every race a lucidian kind of race is a good idea for combat balance on the whole.

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