Avechna the Avenger

Nyxx

I'm a little confused or perhaps disappointed about something involving the Avenger.  I am curious as to why a person has to kill you -twice- to be eligible for vengeance from the avenger, as it is now if htey kill you once they are smply a suspect for 30 days. SO many people take complete advantage of this system to attack "enemies" and non-com's and are able to get away with it because as long as they don't kill you a second time, there really is little you can do about it. One more example of combatants getting the advantage and non-com's being taken advantage of, hardly seems fair to me. If you are a non-com and get randomly slaughtered on the prime material plane you really should have a proper course of action to take without having to wait and hope for them to kill you again sot hat you can have the avenger kill them once.  yes you can hire someone to kill them for you, always an option but not always an available option and often times an incredibly expensive option, once more not fair to the non-coms that are being killed without valid reason and having the avenger system abused like that.

Synkarin

Just to correct you, if you have suspect on someone, and they do any kind of aggressive action against you (just an attack, not even killing) you get Vengeance on them. If they kill you a second time, you actually get two vengeances on them.

That being said, you seem to want to be 100% protected on Prime from any kind of physical recourse whatsoever, which is a bit much. People get to kill you one time, without any punishment, once every 30 days. (on Prime, non enemy-territory of course). That's hardly 'unfair' for a conflict game. You always have the option to stay in protected places like your city etc to dissuade people from killing you, but I think the Avenger system in general is a pretty fair and protective system. It has it's weird quirks, but this is certainly not one of them.

Nyxx

Synkarin said:

Just to correct you, if you have suspect on someone, and they do any kind of aggressive action against you (just an attack, not even killing) you get Vengeance on them. If they kill you a second time, you actually get two vengeances on them.

That being said, you seem to want to be 100% protected on Prime from any kind of physical recourse whatsoever, which is a bit much. People get to kill you one time, without any punishment, once every 30 days. (on Prime, non enemy-territory of course). That's hardly 'unfair' for a conflict game. You always have the option to stay in protected places like your city etc to dissuade people from killing you, but I think the Avenger system in general is a pretty fair and protective system. It has it's weird quirks, but this is certainly not one of them.

Ahh thank you for the clarification I didn't know that. It's not that I want to be 100% protected from attack, but I would like to not be attacked without reason or cause, that does make sense doesn't it? and the game while yes is about conflict and combat there is ALOT more to it than that, why is it that the combatants seem to think they deserve to get everything and the people who don't fight or participate in combat deserve nothing? I'd like people to not be able to abuse the avenger system to just randomly kill whoever they want, wait a month, then kill them again, wait a month, kill them again, etc. That is definitely abusing the system, especially if they are people your character has never interacted with, knows nothing about, etc as in they literally have NO REASON ICly or otherwise to attack you if you are not int heir territory.

Xenthos

Avechna does exactly what it is intended to, and definitely benefits non combatants far, far more than combatants. Having suspect is essentially immunity to being hassled for 30 days. It means that people are generally discouraged from random killing on Prime, which is great. However, if you do something to irritate someone, they absolutely can choose to take a suspect status and demonstrate why you need to exhibit better behaviour / make better choices.

Avechna is not intended to be, nor should it ever be, full protection from everything on Prime. It is a conflict game, and you need to expect occasional conflict.

Cyndarin

Those dastardly PKers participating in a conflict oriented game!

So your proposal is any time one person kills someone else on prime in non enemy territory, they should also inevitably die to a mechanic, and prime PK should really, across the board, be entirely discouraged. 

I think a better solution is to chill out and stop taking a gank so seriously. 

Or snub Avenger. Heard he's a rude bitch anyways.

Synkarin

Nyxx said:

Ahh thank you for the clarification I didn't know that. It's not that I want to be 100% protected from attack, but I would like to not be attacked without reason or cause, that does make sense doesn't it? and the game while yes is about conflict and combat there is ALOT more to it than that, why is it that the combatants seem to think they deserve to get everything and the people who don't fight or participate in combat deserve nothing? I'd like people to not be able to abuse the avenger system to just randomly kill whoever they want, wait a month, then kill them again, wait a month, kill them again, etc. That is definitely abusing the system, especially if they are people your character has never interacted with, knows nothing about, etc as in they literally have NO REASON ICly or otherwise to attack you if you are not int heir territory.

Reason or Cause is pretty subjective. It could be as simple as you're an enemy. It could be as simple as 'you belong to some person's city and I'm trying to antagonize them into fighting me' Which are both valid reasons in my opinion. I've seen very few people that kill someone, wait 30 days, then kill them again. I think the only person I've done that to is @Daebach, but he likes to mouth off a whole lot and deserves it.

Nyxx

Xenthos said:

Avechna does exactly what it is intended to, and definitely benefits non combatants far, far more than combatants. Having suspect is essentially immunity to being hassled for 30 days. It means that people are generally discouraged from random killing on Prime, which is great. However, if you do something to irritate someone, they absolutely can choose to take a suspect status and demonstrate why you need to exhibit better behaviour / make better choices. Avechna is not intended to be, nor should it ever be, full protection from everything on Prime. It is a conflict game, and you need to expect occasional conflict.

Again see my comment above. I do expect conflict. WITH REASON. I don't expect people to abuse the system. kill you without reason, wait, kill again, wait kill again, etc. thats abusing just to harass someone month after month without any recourse, especially when.. once again there is NO IC REASON to attack a known non-combatant. or anyone really for that matter but honestly, conflict oriented game or not, this game does need the people that dont or can't fight and  no one ever seems to have -any- respect for the non-combatants.  "don't like it, learn to fight" is the answer we get, which just isn't an option and shouldn't have to be our only option. well the game isn't supposed to be solely about the people who fight, even if you read the description on the webpage, fighting is a very minimal part of how they advertise the game and yet non-fighters get zero respect from... well anyone, save other non-fighters.   The game isn't supposed to be solely conflict/fighting.

Nyxx

When you tell someone to go ahead and kill you a second time and you get an answer like 

"You know I can't do that, then Avechna would get me!" that is -clearly- and -intentionally- abusing the Avenger system.

Synkarin

Honestly, that's the most bullshit thing I've heard all day. 

Plenty of combatants respect the non-combatants, and don't sit there and try to push them to fight or anything. I hardly ever expect anyone in Gaudiguch, or even during my times in Hallifax and Glomdoring, to jump into a fight or a defense or something if they don't want to. I haven't pushed anyone since my very very early days to fight and I don't plan on starting now.

That being said, just because we're telling you to suck it up because you mouthed off to someone and got murdered for it, doesn't mean we're not respecting 'non-combatants'  This IS a conflict game, you're probably going to get killed if you're being a jerk to certain people, and while you may disagree that it's a valid reason, it doesn't matter, because the person who killed you felt they had a valid reason to do so.

Xenthos

Nyxx said:

Xenthos said:

Avechna does exactly what it is intended to, and definitely benefits non combatants far, far more than combatants. Having suspect is essentially immunity to being hassled for 30 days. It means that people are generally discouraged from random killing on Prime, which is great. However, if you do something to irritate someone, they absolutely can choose to take a suspect status and demonstrate why you need to exhibit better behaviour / make better choices.

Avechna is not intended to be, nor should it ever be, full protection from everything on Prime. It is a conflict game, and you need to expect occasional conflict.

Again see my comment above. I do expect conflict. WITH REASON. I don't expect people to abuse the system. kill you without reason, wait, kill again, wait kill again, etc. thats abusing just to harass someone month after month without any recourse, especially when.. once again there is NO IC REASON to attack a known non-combatant. or anyone really for that matter but honestly, conflict oriented game or not, this game does need the people that dont or can't fight and  no one ever seems to have -any- respect for the non-combatants.  "don't like it, learn to fight" is the answer we get, which just isn't an option and shouldn't have to be our only option. well the game isn't supposed to be solely about the people who fight, even if you read the description on the webpage, fighting is a very minimal part of how they advertise the game and yet non-fighters get zero respect from... well anyone, save other non-fighters.   The game isn't supposed to be solely conflict/fighting.

You do not seem to expect conflict at all. When you send snarky tells to someone, you are giving them reason. If you are interfering with a quest they are working on, you are giving them reason. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, you are giving them reason. The entire idea behind Avechna is that the possible reasons are legion, and they do not need to argue / justify their particular one because it is considered legitimate.

However, it puts a hard stop on them doing it again for 30 days. 30 days is a VERY LONG TIME. Being killed once every 30 days is hard to even consider harassment. That is 12 whole times in an entire year, and you would have had to go out of your way to tick them off to make them even consider it.

PS: Swearing at people is also considered a good reason to get murdered. Being polite is good for all manner of ills.

Ssaliss

How would you like to see it work?

Nyxx

That's sort of my point Synkarin. I hadn't said a single WORD to anyone. When did you ever hear me say I mouthed off to anyone? 

I was just sitting around harvesting plants and before I know, without reason, this person who my character has never even HEARD of before let alone said a single word too, EVER just randomly jumps me and kills me.

 Send him a tell saying to go ahead and kill me again if he feels he is justified in it and has reason and his reply is "you know I can't do that, avechna would get me" <<<---- That is again.. clearly abusing the system.

Xenthos

Nyxx said:

When you tell someone to go ahead and kill you a second time and you get an answer like 

"You know I can't do that, then Avechna would get me!" that is -clearly- and -intentionally- abusing the Avenger system.

Wait, what? This is absurd. It is not abuse of the system, it is how the system works. If you want them to kill you again, type this in game: PK FORGIVE bullyname. You can do this every time you want them to kill you again.

Frankly, in this case you are the one abusing it by trying to taunt them further so that you can vengeance them.

Nyxx

Xenthos said:

Xenthos said:

Avechna does exactly what it is intended to, and definitely benefits non combatants far, far more than combatants. Having suspect is essentially immunity to being hassled for 30 days. It means that people are generally discouraged from random killing on Prime, which is great. However, if you do something to irritate someone, they absolutely can choose to take a suspect status and demonstrate why you need to exhibit better behaviour / make better choices. Avechna is not intended to be, nor should it ever be, full protection from everything on Prime. It is a conflict game, and you need to expect occasional conflict.

Again see my comment above. I do expect conflict. WITH REASON. I don't expect people to abuse the system. kill you without reason, wait, kill again, wait kill again, etc. thats abusing just to harass someone month after month without any recourse, especially when.. once again there is NO IC REASON to attack a known non-combatant. or anyone really for that matter but honestly, conflict oriented game or not, this game does need the people that dont or can't fight and  no one ever seems to have -any- respect for the non-combatants.  "don't like it, learn to fight" is the answer we get, which just isn't an option and shouldn't have to be our only option. well the game isn't supposed to be solely about the people who fight, even if you read the description on the webpage, fighting is a very minimal part of how they advertise the game and yet non-fighters get zero respect from... well anyone, save other non-fighters.   The game isn't supposed to be solely conflict/fighting.

You do not seem to expect conflict at all. When you send snarky tells to someone, you are giving them reason. If you are interfering with a quest they are working on, you are giving them reason. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, you are giving them reason. The entire idea behind Avechna is that the possible reasons are legion, and they do not need to argue / justify their particular one because it is considered legitimate. However, it puts a hard stop on them doing it again for 30 days. 30 days is a VERY LONG TIME. Being killed once every 30 days is hard to even consider harassment. That is 12 whole times in an entire year, and you would have had to go out of your way to tick them off to make them even consider it. PS: Swearing at people is also considered a good reason to get murdered. Being polite is good for all manner of ills.

PS --- didn't swear at anyone? at least not anyone in this particular circumstance I am talking about, same with the snarky tells. DIDNT SAY A WORD TO ANYONE. Why are you assuming I did without any evidence of it? I was simply harvesting and got jumped and killed. See above.

Nyxx

Xenthos said:

When you tell someone to go ahead and kill you a second time and you get an answer like 

"You know I can't do that, then Avechna would get me!" that is -clearly- and -intentionally- abusing the Avenger system.

Wait, what? This is absurd. It is not abuse of the system, it is how the system works. If you want them to kill you again, type this in game: PK FORGIVE bullyname. You can do this every time you want them to kill you again. Frankly, in this case you are the one abusing it by trying to taunt them further so that you can vengeance them.

Telling them if they truly feel they have valid reason and justification for killing me, they shouldn't be afraid of Avechna and should be just fine killing me a second time isn't "taunting" or abusing it. Someone killing you without reason, justification or any sort of roleplaying purpose without any sort of interaction before hand and saying they wont do it again solely because they will get killed is abusing the system..

Synkarin

I saw your conversation with @Celina, so it wouldn't surprise if you did the same to some other person.

You're not really seeing the big picture. It's enough reason to kill you 'because I wanted to'  Avenger protects you from being killed more than once for 30 days.

It's not abuse of the system to play within the confines of the system. He's obviously saying he would kill you again, but he doesn't want to suffer at Avechna's hands, which is completely legitimate in my eyes.

Nyxx

Ssaliss said:

How would you like to see it work?

I don't know Ssaliss, i'm not sure how someone would fix something like that. But i do know that something about it needs to change. Being allowed to just randomly kill people that you know aren't fighters "Just because you can and know they cant fight back and nothing will happen to you as long as you don't kill them again for a month" is just REALLY poor form, poor RP and alot of other things that shows zero respect for the non-fighters.  meh.

Xenthos

You have a reputation, and it is quite possible anyone jumping you knows of it (regardless of whether you spoke to them directly or not). The PS is good advice for general use, even if it had nothing to do with this specific instance it will help with future ones.

Avechna is doing exactly what it is intended to. If you want them to kill you again, then PK FORGIVE them. Otherwise, shrug, note that they cannot touch you again, and harvest in peace.

Nyxx

Synkarin said:

I saw your conversation with @Celina, so it wouldn't surprise if you did the same to some other person.

You're not really seeing the big picture. It's enough reason to kill you 'because I wanted to'  Avenger protects you from being killed more than once for 30 days.

It's not abuse of the system to play within the confines of the system. He's obviously saying he would kill you again, but he doesn't want to suffer at Avechna's hands, which is completely legitimate in my eyes.

Of course it's legitimate in your eyes. YOU are a fighter.  I don't expect a combatant to be able to see it from another persons or non-com's point of view and as for a conversation with Celina, who was rude to me far before I said anything rude to her in return, that is no reason to assume that I would react the same way to someone else. Not unless of course they were rude to me to begin with in the same way that she was. I'm not a pushover and I refuse to allow people to bully me. *shrug*

Nyxx

Xenthos said:

You have a reputation, and it is quite possible anyone jumping you knows of it (regardless of whether you spoke to them directly or not). The PS is good advice for general use, even if it had nothing to do with this specific instance it will help with future ones. Avechna is doing exactly what it is intended to. If you want them to kill you again, then PK FORGIVE them. Otherwise, shrug, note that they cannot touch you again, and harvest in peace.

Yes. I have a reputation for not allowing people to bully me and insult me. I stand up for myself, shocker that the bullies can't handle that right?

Xenthos

Nyxx said:

Xenthos said:

Nyxx said:

When you tell someone to go ahead and kill you a second time and you get an answer like 

"You know I can't do that, then Avechna would get me!" that is -clearly- and -intentionally- abusing the Avenger system.

Wait, what? This is absurd. It is not abuse of the system, it is how the system works. If you want them to kill you again, type this in game: PK FORGIVE bullyname. You can do this every time you want them to kill you again.

Frankly, in this case you are the one abusing it by trying to taunt them further so that you can vengeance them.

Telling them if they truly feel they have valid reason and justification for killing me, they shouldn't be afraid of Avechna and should be just fine killing me a second time isn't "taunting" or abusing it. Someone killing you without reason, justification or any sort of roleplaying purpose without any sort of interaction before hand and saying they wont do it again solely because they will get killed is abusing the system..

This is still being absurd. Avechna is 100% in-character. Knowing how he works is in-character. Avoiding his wrath is in-character. Saying that they do not want to get vengeanced is not bad roleplay by any stretch of the imagination, it is not abusing the system, and trying to claim otherwise is silly.

Nyxx

Xenthos said:

Xenthos said:

When you tell someone to go ahead and kill you a second time and you get an answer like 

"You know I can't do that, then Avechna would get me!" that is -clearly- and -intentionally- abusing the Avenger system.

Wait, what? This is absurd. It is not abuse of the system, it is how the system works. If you want them to kill you again, type this in game: PK FORGIVE bullyname. You can do this every time you want them to kill you again. Frankly, in this case you are the one abusing it by trying to taunt them further so that you can vengeance them.

Telling them if they truly feel they have valid reason and justification for killing me, they shouldn't be afraid of Avechna and should be just fine killing me a second time isn't "taunting" or abusing it. Someone killing you without reason, justification or any sort of roleplaying purpose without any sort of interaction before hand and saying they wont do it again solely because they will get killed is abusing the system..

This is still being absurd. Avechna is 100% in-character. Knowing how he works is in-character. Avoiding his wrath is in-character. Saying that they do not want to get vengeanced is not bad roleplay by any stretch of the imagination, it is not abusing the system, and trying to claim otherwise is silly.

Again, the only people who seem to be arguing with me are combatants, of course I wouldn't expect any of you to understand how a non-combatant feels about that kind of crap and the lack of respect.

Enyalida

Nyxx said:

Xenthos said:

You have a reputation, and it is quite possible anyone jumping you knows of it (regardless of whether you spoke to them directly or not). The PS is good advice for general use, even if it had nothing to do with this specific instance it will help with future ones. Avechna is doing exactly what it is intended to. If you want them to kill you again, then PK FORGIVE them. Otherwise, shrug, note that they cannot touch you again, and harvest in peace.

Yes. I have a reputation for not allowing people to bully me and insult me. I stand up for myself, shocker that the bullies can't handle that right?

This is not what your reputation is for.

Personally, I do not like that Avenger takes all the roleplaying onus out of attacking someone. That's not to say that people fighting have no role-based reasons to do so, in the vast majority of times they do. It's just to say that they don't need to because killing is managed by a (mostly) ooc mechanic. I understand why it is the way it is, however. I wish that there would be some fixes regarding how it interacts with certain (conflict) quests, and that there were more avenues for open combat that aren't exclusively "forest territory", but it is what it is. 

Ardmore

Exactly what Enyalida said.

I was trying to write up a description for what Nyxx's reputation is, but I couldn't get it to a point where I didn't think I would get banned for posting it.

Xenthos

Nyxx said:

Xenthos said:

Nyxx said:

Xenthos said:

Nyxx said:

When you tell someone to go ahead and kill you a second time and you get an answer like 

"You know I can't do that, then Avechna would get me!" that is -clearly- and -intentionally- abusing the Avenger system.

Wait, what? This is absurd. It is not abuse of the system, it is how the system works. If you want them to kill you again, type this in game: PK FORGIVE bullyname. You can do this every time you want them to kill you again.

Frankly, in this case you are the one abusing it by trying to taunt them further so that you can vengeance them.

Telling them if they truly feel they have valid reason and justification for killing me, they shouldn't be afraid of Avechna and should be just fine killing me a second time isn't "taunting" or abusing it. Someone killing you without reason, justification or any sort of roleplaying purpose without any sort of interaction before hand and saying they wont do it again solely because they will get killed is abusing the system..

This is still being absurd. Avechna is 100% in-character. Knowing how he works is in-character. Avoiding his wrath is in-character. Saying that they do not want to get vengeanced is not bad roleplay by any stretch of the imagination, it is not abusing the system, and trying to claim otherwise is silly.

Again, the only people who seem to be arguing with me are combatants, of course I wouldn't expect any of you to understand how a non-combatant feels about that kind of crap and the lack of respect.

Except that I am not much of a combatant (I have said time and again that I do not find it fun in large doses), and generally only participate for reasons, not the general thrill of PK. I am also generally a champion for those who need it and are being unfairly harassed (you can ask Celina, we have clashed on such things, including enemy policy).

If I am agreeing with the combatants, it is time to take a step back and rethink your argument.

Synkarin

It's pretty clear that you think you should be placed above combatants and protected because you choose to be a non-combatant. 

It's a silly notion to sit here and say that just because we're combatants, we couldn't possibly understand where you are coming from. I can turn it around and say because you're a non-combatant, you can't possibly understand why the Avenger system is completely sound and working in the exact way it was intended. 

You're clearly not willing to accept that one death every 30 days from someone is really not that big of a deal. I don't know who ganked you, but I do know that death happens and you need to stop crying about it. 

Cyndarin

I have a hard time believing anyone who has abused the snub system so recently as a tool to swear at people they don't like and get the last word in has a genuine issue with any alleged "abuse" of the system. Stones, glass houses, etc. 

Beyond that, I don't understand why you think people should feel obligated to warn you that they are about to initiate conflict and explain their justification for doing so. The onus really isn't on them to explain why they are participating in conflict in a game that is conflict oriented. When compared to other IREs, Lusternia's system is notoriously non com friendly, and so long as people are respecting the rules of the Avenger (in most cases they don't have a choice, it's hard coded), there is no abuse. Redefining "harassment" and "abusing the system" to fit your rhetoric isn't going to do you any favors here. 1 death every 30 days is not harassment. 

This whole "I stand up for myself," bully nonsense would be a lot more credible if you demonstrated some ability to separate OOC and IC. Characters aren't going to get along in a world that is ultimately about wiping out every other org that is not your own, and as long as those IC interactions keep within reasonable boundaries, there's really no reason why everyone has to RP "respectful." If you initiate an IC conversation with someone, and snub them because they didn't kowtow your complaints, and ultimately resort to swearing at people in an OOC manner before using an OOC mechanic to get the last word in, you are in fact the abuser and the bully. 

And frankly, you should be ashamed for throwing the word "bully," around just because you don't like PK or PKers. They are playing a game and a character, and this "I stand up for myself," routine is nothing more than you lashing out at people who don't play the way you want them to play. A remarkably hypocritical stance considering the intent of this entire thread.

Nyxx

Enyalida said:

Nyxx said:

Xenthos said:

You have a reputation, and it is quite possible anyone jumping you knows of it (regardless of whether you spoke to them directly or not). The PS is good advice for general use, even if it had nothing to do with this specific instance it will help with future ones. Avechna is doing exactly what it is intended to. If you want them to kill you again, then PK FORGIVE them. Otherwise, shrug, note that they cannot touch you again, and harvest in peace.

Yes. I have a reputation for not allowing people to bully me and insult me. I stand up for myself, shocker that the bullies can't handle that right?

This is not what your reputation is for.

Personally, I do not like that Avenger takes all the roleplaying onus out of attacking someone. That's not to say that people fighting have no role-based reasons to do so, in the vast majority of times they do. It's just to say that they don't need to because killing is managed by a (mostly) ooc mechanic. I understand why it is the way it is, however. I wish that there would be some fixes regarding how it interacts with certain (conflict) quests, and that there were more avenues for open combat that aren't exclusively "forest territory", but it is what it is. 

No that is what my reputation is for just that the people who tend to argue with me, also tend to be the ones who bully me and attack or insult me first so of course they would see it and word it differently. I almost never insult or verbally attack someone without them having first done so to me, honey. 

I personally think the best avenue would be that pk (on -prime-  and/or not in enemy territory) should be approved of by both parties before it can happen. Not entirely sure how that would work exactly but I do think that the non-com's shouldnt be forced into PK if they don't want to just because someone hasthe capability of fighting them. Just like I have a snub command so I don't have to interact verbally with someone if I don't want to, such a command should exist to stop me from having to participate in PK if I donèt want to... hrm... though I can see how that would easily be abused as well. it would still be nice to not have to force the non-com's to fight if they don't want to. the whole advertising of the game is built ont he fact that it is MORE than just mindlessly killing things and people. 

Xenthos

That is a terrible idea.

Aeldra

I just wanted to chime in and say that:

- As a non combat / newbie person I would really like to see the attacks by people be preceded / followed up by more RP. Killing someone without even loosing a word before/after is, in my eyes, just boring and no matter your reason, not RP.  I think a lot of frustration could be averted if the non-combatant would actually get something out of the encounter aside from XP loss. I know I would.
- Sure, I get mad when somebody 1000% my might jumps me and makes me into fine grained meat. In the end, there's a chance to turn something boring like that into something that will haunt the attacker for far longer time then your kill did. You are part of an organisation, often with very capable people who might even delight to have a change from their daily chop chop. Get plotting, get your revenge your way. Set a trap, bombard a trade agreement, get them a cursed item through a proxy. Options, as far as I can yet perceive them, are plentiful!
- Please, everybody, do remember there's a person on the other side of the screen. Try to make this fun for everybody, even the person that's going to be on the sharp end of your weapon in a minute. Make a step out for meaningful RP and don't overdo it. We are all different people and we thrive on different things, but am sure we could still have a lot of fun, while the bits of our characters fly through the aether.

Lerad

Being a combatant doesn't exclude us from the conversation or debate, or make us unable to empathize. As it is, Lusternia is, by far, the most forgiving IRE mud with regards to attacking non-combatants, and not just because of the Avenger system, but also because of the community. But that aside, the Avenger system ALONE already makes Lusternia literally, factually, the most forgiving IRE mud for non-combatants. Every other IRE mud has at least a 1-death = no issue rule, but here, it's enforced mechanically for 30 days. If you're killed multiple times in a month in other IREs, and the other party can prove you "deserved" it by any kind of logical argument, then combatant or not, you're all the way up "can't-do-anything" mountain.

Here, combatants are penalized because they can't attack a person even if they give them sufficient reason to be killed multiple times in a month. After killing someone legitimately, if that someone comes back and mouths off, I... can't do anything about it. End of story. The Avenger system here errs on the side of caution far more to the non-combatant advantage than the combatant advantage. That's a factual statement, but at the same time, an inadequate one. Instead of seeing it in the combatant/non-combatant binary, the more accurate statement will be, the Avenger system here errs on the side of caution far more to the new player's retention than to any old player's enjoyment.

You have to understand first and foremost, that the Avenger system is not meant to protect non-combatants. I've mentioned this before, some time ago, but the Avenger system is here to protect newbies as the first priority. It was convenient to have it apply to everyone, both because it's hard to say where the newbie line starts, and where it ends, but also to protect returning players who have no idea which side is up. On the other hand, older players, combatants and non-combatants alike, are penalized under the system because they cannot do anything to people who abuse it, absolute as it is. God knows there are people out there who deserve to be killed all 25 hours a day, combatant or not. The Avenger system is very effective as an absolute protection for newbies, and that's all it really is.

As a note, most combatants won't randomly kill non-combatants for no reason, because the more people have you on their suspect list, the more vulnerable you are to certain mechanics (karma curses). Most combatants don't do it because most combatants are smart.

Note I say most. Some people aren't very smart.

Combatants usually save their avenger-kill on people they have a reason to kill, specifically, other combatants. The system, as a side effect of being geared to punish random newbie killers, is also geared in a way to encourage combatants to attack other combatants, and save their avenger-kill slots for those combatants instead of non-combatants. Of course, that does mean that there are also times when a combatant has no one to kill, so can randomly choose to kill a non-combatant. Again, not many would willingly choose to do that because see above.

The times when a non-combatant is killed in Avenger protected territory is when 1) there actually IS a reason for the kill or 2) the killer is not very smart (see above).