Domoth Blessings

Davos

So in looking over domoth blessings, it seems like Beauty is the real overhaul loser. Whereas life gets 2/8, and even death and life get 2/4 EQ/Balance speed, beauty only gets 1/2 maximum ego.

I don't actually think this will benefit many people and seems to be very weak for an already weak set of domoth blessings.

I am curious on opinions on what the harm would be of upping this to 2/8 like life?

Also, are there any other opinions of particularly weak blessings that are out of line with the other domoths?

Cyndarin

Better solution: nerf things down to beauty's level.

Davos

What is your argument for doing it that way, Celina?

Enyalida

To avoid feature creep and easy stacking to capped levels. I kind of agree, karma blessings should not be very strong. Having +eq speed blessings and so on is already... too much. 

Davos

First, Let me say I'm not against nerfing them all. I was simply wishing to point out the disparity.

However, wasn't the entire point of the overhaul vitals to stop that already? So if it's within the same system as everything else, it already stops that.

Tarkenton

I need to see how high I can push Vitals for the classes I flex as. Been managing an easy 13/8/8 as a warrior without going for karma or quest buffs, be neat to see if I can push those up another two at least.

Shaddus

If domoth blessings weren't that great, the only reason people would have them would be the passive power.

Vivet

Shaddus said:

If domoth blessings weren't that great, the only reason people would have them would be the passive power.

I think that's kind of the intention with what's being suggested, in the hopes that people will play more riskily with them. I doubt that would happen without some other changes, though (decreasing the difference between demi claim and VA claim along with eliminating stage 3 would both increase activity moreso, imo).

Enyalida

Are we talking actual domoth blessings or just karma blessings? I was under the impression it was the latter. 

Synkarin

I'd assume domoth blessings, considering the topic is 'Domoth Blessings'

Enyalida

Some people refer to them interchangeably /shrug. Note that both I and Tarkenton mentioned karma blessings and the OP of the thread responded in kind, heh. 

In that case, yeah - they absolutely shouldn't be giving 2/4 balance/eq buffs to entire races, stacking with the karma blessing (in the case of eq) and class stat buffs. 

Tarkenton

Or I'm a moron xD

That being said, with intaglio and classfkex... Going to have to see what I can push things to. See if I can achieve the mythical 13 13 13

Cyndarin

Yes, it's the power creep. I think, as far as game design goes, we've decided outside perks should no longer dictate the flow of PK, which inherently means reducing their effectiveness. While 1 level vs 2 levels is ultimately minor in the new system, it's still more. People will continue to fight for domoths because they are 1) open PK and 2) generate power. The perks, in the overhaul system, should not be the main attraction.

Davos

I would be -very- in favor of decreasing the time it takes to capture phase 2. This would for sure be necessary if we're discussing decreasing the domoths down to levels where they would not be useful for combatants (like 1/2)

I think probably the best way to do it would be decreasing time based on the amount of allies are in the room with the capturer.

Alternatively, decreasing the longer the capturer remains in the room.

Synkarin

Stage 2 should remain as is - it's the best and most open part for PK, and the current time bonuses are fine as is, they don't really need to be tweaked. Changing timers to be quicker dependant on allies would just decrease PK chances, and I think that's a bad move.  For instance - in the Knowledge steal a few days ago, had numbers changed timing strategies, we would have had only half the chances to try and take it. 

Stage 3 can be changed- it's all but a gimme at this point. Stage 3 could even be eliminated without much fuss.

Stage 1 is probably fine too, it's easy enough and gives an alternative approach to pking

Davos

The issue is that a full hour for a demigod is a big commitment for people, particularly if we make the benefits not worthwhile and require it to be upgraded every few days. That's FAR more time invested than any other form of competition for less specific benefit.

I am not against giving the opportunity to fight, but if there isn't going to be a fight, why does it need to be that long? Perhaps, it only kicks in after the first 20 minutes if there has been no usurping of the capture?

The game doesn't have enough people to justify this length of investment for so small a benefit multiple times a week.

Cyndarin

I don't see the issue. If an hour is too much investment for free power and essence (it's a net gain at the end of the crown stage), don't do it. Plenty of other demigods will happily do it, and so long as that remains true, I don't see any reason to make it easier for demigods to hold on to them.

If anything, I'd prefer to see stage three removed and stage two extended so that it's not an endless cycle of scared domoth holders waiting for the hour that the competition is logged off. Well, it'd still be the same cycle, but at least the window to contest it would be larger. What we don't want is to make these less open to competition than they already are.

My dream domoths would have lower personal benefits (the health/damage/etc perks), larger org benefits (like the catacombs map, power increase, etc), and would be more open to challenges while less dictated by the pk wusses that try to avoid it. Essence drain on demigods would be removed so it doesn't punish anyone just for competing. Knocking down opposing domoths would require the opposite seal holder to be present in the realms to at least contest it. Lockout mechanics would be removed. IMO.

Davos

I disagree with the majority of these statements. As such, I doubt a coherent proposal would come out of this thread in a meaningful way to change domoths.

My feeling is that with the low population is the greatest problem and that domoths do not encourage active or engaging play in 90% of circumstances. For non-demigod, it's stand here and bash at this thing for an hour.

It took two hours for me to upgrade nature earlier. I understand that this would be only 40 minutes in the second phase if I was VA, but lower population means less power and thus less VAs.

It seems silly to me that the idea of extending the second phase is the way to encourage combat, when to me, this would discourage it. I don't want to be sitting somewhere for an hour and a half waiting for an enemy to attack. It is not an engaging or useful experience. That is why I was proposing that it be shortened IF there is no competition. If there is no competition, then the extra time only serves to punish people going for the domoth instead of encouraging combat.

Regarding there is always someone else to do it, I don't really believe that. We ended up capturing war at like 10 pm CST with only 3 people because -nobody- in Serenwilde, Glomdoring, or Celest wanted it.

Eodh

Domoths are a PK thing. If you want to make Stage 2 less "just waiting around", I suggest you not upgrade specifically during times when there is low opposition. I'd expect Stage 2 to feel less tedious then.

With that said, Domoths, in general, look like it could need its own overhaul. It encourages alliances and yet discourages actual combat as much as possible (upgrade/absolve when there's no competition). It has a number of unnecessary 'features' (Stage 3), the disparity between Demigod and Demigod+ is pretty huge (in terms of time). 

:-??

Cyndarin

Non demigods are in no way obligated to bash for an hour if they do not want to. They choose to on the off chance the person who chose to upgrade picked a time to do so when there would be competition, but because of the ability to choose as it is now, they end up waiting.  I agree that domoths aren't engaging 90%  of the time, and that is entirely the decision of the players that hold them. 90% don't even require people sitting around helping bash stage 2. If you want a fight, if you want them to be engaging, encourage your domoth holders to stop being babies about them. It's odd that you would complain about the lack of engagement because of the decisions directly made by the players. The opportunity exists, just have to change your mindset about it. 

The flaw here isn't in the length of time, but the ease at which people who win the free domoth keep that domoth until if fluxes again because of how upgrade mechanics work. It's boring because the people would rather sit on them than fight for them. People will actually forego upgrading at all and let it fall a level or two than upgrade when they might have a chance to lose it. Shortening the window for when people can contest a domoth being upgraded simply further favors the upgrader, exacerbating the already existing issue.

The solution isn't to dumb it down even further so that not only is it easy to avoid confrontation in domoths, but also convenient to do so because the timer is so short. If anything, I think domoths should fall more frequently so that the opportunity to exchange hands more often.

I guess I don't understand why anyone thinks Domoths, a totally voluntary mechanic, should require minimum investment and time for the benefits others are willing to invest time in. Perhaps it's because people are spoiled on domoths and have gotten lazy about them. 

Nobody wanted it or nobody was around that wanted it late in the day on some random day. Those aren't the same, and that's pretty anecdotal.  You can give it to me, if you really believe no one wants it. I'll happily demonstrate otherwise. 

Davos

I mean, it's 5:30 pm cst. Is this not a time when people are around? When war happened and nobody wanted it, I had 10 pings on farsight. This narrative of only contesting when nobody is around is a little played out particularly considering all these opinions are coming from Gaudiguch players, and Gaudiguch has let multiple domoths drop instead of upgrading in recent times.

Cyndarin

I'm sorry, have I let a domoth drop because I was scared of people? Can you clue me in on which one and when? Partisan labeling is played out. The flaw of the system is the flaw of the system, regardless of which side X person thinks is more guilty.

edit: Frankly, with comments like that, it sounds like you just want to have your cake and eat it too. You want the ability to avoid conflict, without the avoidance being inconvenient for you. I guess I don't understand why mechanics should be altered to cater to your decisions, when other decisions you are capable of making resolve both the tediousness and/or the inconvenience. 

Synkarin

I don't understand what letting domoths drop has to do with anything in this conversation? 

I definitely let a domoth drop, several in fact, but the relevancy seems a little forced. 

This is really just following the train of thought Maligorn started earlier where Hallifax is enjoying their victories with no competition around.

Rivius

I like this thread. We can probably put together a good envoy report out of it and get domoths their much needed changes.

Ideas I really like so far:

- Bye bye stage 3

- Bye bye demigod essence loss

What could encourage fighting more? Would removing the 'you can't have the opposing domoth' mechanic help? 

Is there a way we can take away control from upgrades so people don't sit on domoths and let it drop? Eg. Every x period of time any demigod can attempt to absolve regardless of holding a domoth or not?

Lerad

To do that would be to make it an organisational based claim, which may not be a bad idea. Domoths are already organisational, but the control over its starting is simply given to an individual currently. If we make it an org based mechanic, where the org has a stipulated window to upgrade it, they, and their opposition, can plan around the window to log on and contest.

For example, all domoths must last 70 hours once succeeded, after 70 hours, there is a 5 hour period where upgrading becomes possible, if no upgrade is started within the 5 hours, the domoth drops a level, or fluxes. Any security member, or protector member of the org can start the domoth. The presence of a claimer is needed, and the ascendancy of the claimer gives bonuses to the claim speed, or some other kind of less impactful advantage.

With a set window that people can plan around, ie planned conflict, the stage2 window can be shorter if needed, as long as ascendancy bonuses will not make it too huge of an advantage, since this also effectively removes the "two domoths per ascendant" limit. etc etc.

Eodh

How about removing the "opposite domoths" thing completely? Any domoth can absolve any other domoth, as long as they're not both dormant. The domoth holders both have to be present, too. One problem I see, though, is that it may discourage domoth holders to not log in completely if they know their side has little to no combatants during a particular time.

Lerad

Yeah, moving domoths to organisational ownership will make it so that individuals are not obliged to stay logged out to prevent absolves or contests or claims. It does come at the cost of creating an obligation for people to log IN to try and contest, but I guess that is the lesser of two evils.

Luce

Could make claim speed universal and shift the cost-per-attempt from Demi essence to org power, with higher tiers of demiscendance giving a discount? Make the costs such that a demi can still initiate the claim without earning the eternal ire of the ruling council, and the power gained is still appreciable for a win.

Heck, to add an element of conflict, offer a second discount if the claim in question is contesting another org. So it's cheaper to steal than to start your own claim, and cheaper for ascendants than normal demis, etc.

Vivet

I'd be pretty cool with just taking out stage 3 and lumping the average time spent there in stage 2 instead. That or up the number of mobs for stage 1 so it takes longer to do that - then that gives more time to stall/assess numbers/etc going into stage 2.