Gear Overhaul

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Comments

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    I think we need clarification on whether or not the mallet will apply the damage change to items forged for other players or just for the person who owns the mallet. 

    That being said, who really cares. You take trades almost entirely for the trans skill (master armour-since the etched runes are being deleted), and this goes for every other trade. It's not as if tailors are running lucrative cloak businesses. You, like the proposed forging, take it for the trans skill and everything else is convenience and self reliance. People with arties do it better, much like how tattoos are absolute torture if they don't have a needle. I don't see it being an issue.  

    My biggest question, however, is why do warriors need such an abundance of rune flexibility in comparison to casters? Runes should enhance existing properties to make warriors more effective at the things they already do. Runes should not provide warriors  with exclusive bonuses or exceptional degrees of flexibility and utility like extra linking speed or further crit buffs. 

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  • PurezaPureza Member Posts: 12 Inept
    Because armor will no longer affect wounding, the extra 2% of damage resistance that trans forging is going to give sort of lackluster... and one knot. The main reason I would take forging, under this proposal, would be because I'd love to have the flexibility to switch around effects on weapons myself to play with stuff, or tweak them if I'm going to hunt in one area vs another.

    The difference between the concept of the proposed mallet and something like tailoring shears is like saying we'll let you make splendors but you have to find someone with shears to proof them for you. It also furthers the situation where a warrior is hamstringing themselves by not being a forger with a mallet. If the mallet allowed anyone to do it without the forging ability then, hey, whatever. If you are forcing warriors who want the damage type effect to all take forging so they can use the mallet in the first place then we are right back to shoehorning large portions of the warrior community all into one tradeskill. It's how things were before, and it will be darn disappointing if we intentionally do so again.

    You don't like the idea of effects on weapons, and that's okay. It's the framework we've been given to comment on, and I think it's a neat idea if it's done right. I'm against the idea of cookiecutter weapons. I think it will be way more interesting if people have to make hard choices about how they set their weapons up. It will require a large credit investment (as is customary with warriors) to load up on the effects.

    I'll ask what is terrible balance wise from a warrior getting an extra link of power out of an astral node, a concept that when you reach the highest end of bashing becomes annoying when you keep topping out your reserves. Not faster linking.. just an extra link of power, and you have to be on astral spawning creatures to get it. Would it be possible for someone to sheathe that weapon and then run around and kill all the creatures with other ones? Sure. Having to unlink every 2 links to run around and do so, or swap weapons each time a creature walks in the room would sort of defeat the purpose, though.

    Is an extra 1% crit bonus too much to give in place of, say, attack speed? Or base damage, or damage type, or any of the other possible options? Estarra said just earlier in this thread that they want to extend the effects to be able to be put on the staves and cudgels and symbols et al. This won't be exclusive to warriors in the long term.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    If that's the reason you want to take forging, then forging is fundamentally too good and flexible. No other trade allows to switch around effects on the fly and adjust for bashing areas. The goal should then be to bring forging (and by extension warriors) back in line with the other trade skills. The simple solution is to not do a forging mallet change and just make damage type changes work as they do now and roll it into the slot system. Resolves the whole issue, and mallets can work similar to shears or needles. Ultimately, I think it's a minor issue to have to have weapons forged for you, but if it's a quality of life concern, no reason to not address it now.

    I didn't say I didn't like the idea of effects on weapons. I said warriors should not have an extra layer of customization, utility, and adaptation not available to the rest of the game just because they are warriors and people don't want cookie cutter weapons. There's really no rational or fair argument against this, it's just a fundamental concept for balance. What is terrible about a warrior having a the option for an extra link of power? Simple: casters do not have that option. The minutiae of the give and take between rune selection is ultimately irrelevant when we are starting off with an unfair concept. 

    It's not a bad idea, it's just not a fair one until it's applied to everyone. Let's not make this Warriorsternia.

    If the runes/slots/whatever idea is going to be implemented for casters at the same time as warriors, fabulous. We can discuss the relevant balancing factors of each idea. If we're talking ambiguous future goals, then that's a non starter. Give warriors artifacts that enhance their existing skills, not a whole new tree of perks that may or may not be given to casters at a later time. 

     
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    I agree, but it has been said that casters might get slotted weapons eventuallytm
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Well yes, but let's wait until they are before we do this whole special weapon customization business. 
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  • PurezaPureza Member Posts: 12 Inept
    I don't think the idea of an archetype having a unique thematic system associated with it is inherently bad or wrong. That being said, I don't think this is coming out this weekend or anything, and if time is going to be put into coding so that all archetypes can benefit from the effects on day zero then it's more pertinent to discuss abilities that would actually benefit people other than warriors while making it clear that you want everyone to have this become available at the same time. It's only in the best financial interest of the game, as then everyone can spend money on the extra slots, but there has to be something to do with those slots and a clear desire for people to have them before the effort is going to go in.

    The effects I suggested were largely things that could apply to any class, not overly strong, but interesting enough to hopefully make people consider which they should actually choose... maybe even carry extra sets of weapons, which is also a long standing thematic part of warrior life in Lusternia, which will die without some system to make different weapons shine in different situations. Even if forgers can change which effects their weapons have with relative ease, those who aren't forgers can still sheathe and draw new weapons to change gears.

    It's also worth noting that, while many may not care, warriors used to have a huge amount of customizability when it came to weapons and combat. Damage weapons, precision weapons, precision with more speed, and max speed. Over time most of these were drilled into uselessness because they were so hard to balance... not because warrior weapons were supposed to be thematically bland in the first place. Bringing that flavour back to the class is ultimately a good thing, in my opinion, as long as it's done in such a way to be both easy to balance and encourage variety. Moving some of that variety into bashing/utility specific areas helps to give more options without killing balance as well as a good base of things that all can benefit from if the concept is indeed transferred to the items of other archetypes.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    I'm just so happy that soon I won't have to use a katana/klangaxe/hammers/rapiers/halberds only soon to be optimal.
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  • BaelorBaelor Member Posts: 268 Master
    Critical hit rates can already be pushed to absurd amounts, I doubt we want to stack more on top.

    It's also unlikely that Divinus and Excorable damage will be added to weapon runes.

    As to the power draw, there are already multiple ways to draw faster. Much like with criticals I doubt we'll see a need to add more sources for this.
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    edited December 2015
    How about psychic? Will that get added as a weapon rune option?

    While critical hit boost isn't needed, it would be nice to have it as an option just to widen the available thing to fill your weapon slots with.

  • BaelorBaelor Member Posts: 268 Master
    Nice to have as an option isn't justification for adding more power creep into a bloated system.

    If we ever look at criticals and making certain buffs non stackable, it'd be an option. But there are no plans at this time.
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    That's fair, thanks. I sometimes forget how many crit stacking things there are.

  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    The current plan for the damage typing enhancement is to include all damage types. The weapon runes that exist now are being retired.
    7c95dbc25a4a9ae292cccb899a49a79b18529207e135ebccd89c0877d386ebea
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Do we know how a warrior with damage runes will compare bashing wise to artifact whips? Will they be more or less on par at higher end bashing?
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    Well, it'll be 33% of the damage changed, as opposed 100% of the damage on a whip, so whips seem better still.

    So...I get to get semi-divinus chain?

    Can we get 2 enchanted slots? So like, could I get a chain that's 33% blunt, 33% psychic, 33% divinus?

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    edited December 2015
    Depends on multiple factors, which is why I ask. Basically I'm curious how paladins compare to, for example, me with a whip assuming all things equal. It's hard to balance this stuff because we aren't super transparent as far as bashing numbers go (Achaea has those numbers in game so now all the classes bash more or less exactly the same), but I'm just curious if warriors with divinus are bashing significantly faster than a whip. Sure, it's just 1/6th, but it's the crit numbers and speed where warriors get the advantage, and I'm wondering if the diminished divinus damage amount is offset by those factors. 

    edit: Maybe I'm being debbie downer here with these questions and concerns admittedly, but I've played for so long and warriors have historically always received a ton of attention and come out on top. If they have "sucked" it was never for long. They've been absolutely game breaking on multiple occasions, dominated death events, always been the best or among the best in several fields (like bashing, group combat, etc) so I'm concerned we're getting really carried away here with the introduction of a whole new tier of warrior customization...especially when you consider how flexible warriors with pliers and piles of credits could potentially be. We saw Nihilists get totally broken down and they didn't receive a fraction of the attention warriors are now so I think it's a valid concern.
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  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    Actual concrete numbers would be great to have. Keep in mind the attacks vs crits really applies to 1h warriors only, since the 2hers have the equivalent whip/staff balance time. I know in the overhaul arena, warrior attacks were hitting me for 1kish every balance. If I remember properly, warriors are being put on a universal 3 or 3.5s balance that is then modified by old dexterity buffs. At a 10/10 buff, that shaves off 20% iirc. That's .6 or .7s, so 2.4 to 2.8s balance time. However, eq bonus exists now, so I think we can disregard that. The big thing is number of attacks. Might not be a bad idea for admins to consider two shot attacks, pve only, for all classes and specs to equalize bashing.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Also have to consider raze/cleave as they is a very significant contribution to bashing speed. How to factor that into the math, I have no idea, but it's a thing. 
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  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 401 Virtuoso
    Give everyone tuneable damage. Make sun ray work on denizens.
  • PurezaPureza Member Posts: 12 Inept
    It appears to be a design goal that most classes should bash pretty evenly. Will it ever be 100% perfectly even? No. Not unless we get rid of mob shielding or razing, set everyone's attacks to do the same type of damage, and give everyone the perfectly same balance. Everyone would need the same amount of health, defenses, and resistances as well.

    Discussion about how powerful warrior classes have been in the past is, frankly, irrelevant. They are being redone, and the belief that they should or shouldn't receive any particular mechanic because of a previous, unrelated system is fallacious.

    I suppose I can understand a distaste for a 1% crit bonus if people feel like there is too much. I have no idea how much people are able to stack up these days. If it's that big a problem I think a cap or diminishing returns would likely be a better way to deal with it than trying to pick and choose bonuses to stack or not stack, but that's really a discussion for another thread and I'll just eat my hat on putting it on weapons because I don't have enough data to make a compelling argument.

    As for the linking thing, I would personally argue that "there are other ways to get power" is just as much a non-starter as "because it'd be nice to have the option." The combat implications are zilch, and the value of power, as a commodity on the individual level, is pretty negligible. I imagine that it would rarely be chosen by the majority of the populace, because when you have 3 slots to choose from, damage, damage type, and attack speed are going to be too attractive to give up for regular bashing circumstances. It'd be a situational effect only used when people specifically were linking for personal reserves. It's something I do personally, which is why I'm advocating for it as an option. Sure, I could go get loads of essence from elemental planes etc. and have a power aide unblock me to draw from my nexus, but I think it's more fun to get power from astral and I can avoid having to find someone to unblock me.
  • BaelorBaelor Member Posts: 268 Master
    edited December 2015
    Pureza said:

    As for the linking thing, I would personally argue that "there are other ways to get power" is just as much a non-starter as "because it'd be nice to have the option." The combat implications are zilch, and the value of power, as a commodity on the individual level, is pretty negligible.

    What I actually said was:

    Baelor said:

    As to the power draw, there are already multiple ways to draw faster. 
    And there are, increased draw speed already exists in the game in more than one way. Your suggestion to double up reserves on a two for one draw when paired with either (or both) of those options allows for rapid recovery of reserves, which does have a tactical edge in engagements that are long and drawn out.

    The downtime that occurs while a side recovers power reserves and thus surrenders the objective (whether it be a domoth, a village, wildnodes or anything else) temporarily can and has been a difference maker, to say the implications are zilch would be incorrect.

    Hence why it's unlikely that such an addition will be made.


    As to crit, between the increasing critical strike rate from levels 1 to 101, critical strike runes that go up to level four, lucky clovers, kiwi punch, critical hit food and a few other sources that include guild specific skillsets, we would be wary to add any further critical strike sources at this point.
    Post edited by Baelor on
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    Much earlier this year I tried to get ideas going for giving wider damage-type options that made thematic sense for warriors and monks. But it was mostly shouted down by people who didn't want paladins or tahtetso to get divinus damage when other guilds in those classes wouldn't.

    Everyone without class-divinus damage seems to have divinus whips.

    Now we're all excited (including admittedly, myself) about the idea that any warriors can get a little bit of any damage they want. And the non-warriors are going 'wait..' And now there's the idea for slotted caster weapons to make it fairer to non-warriors/monks.

    This is all starting to seem a bit silly to me. If everyone can just have whatever they want, why even have different damage types? Are warriors and monks gonna walk around with multiple weapons, each with different damage types on them? Is anyone going to get anything but divinus enchanted on their hunting weapons?

    There seems to be a problem here.

  • PurezaPureza Member Posts: 12 Inept
    There are places where different damage types are better than divinus. The reason it is the most popular because lots of things have a fair amount of weakness to it. Even if something isn't weak to it, it's probably neutral. You can use your normal bash attack in those instances if it has an advantage. If you have to pick one damage type to do, divinus the most bang for your buck. When it comes to the whips, there's not a huge reason to buy anything other than the divinus because even when you are going to an area where another damage type might do better, the divinus is still good enough vs the 275cr investment to get another type of whip.

    Now, when it comes to the proposition of converting some regular weapon damage to another type, yes I'd use more than just divinus. Fire weapons for icewynd, for instance. How many other places would I use those fire weapons? Not many, probably. I wouldn't buy a whip just for fire. For what a set of masterweapons costs, though, sure, even for only 1/3rd of the damage conversion why not.

    tldr: Yes, I absolutely would carry around multiple sets of hunting weapons to customize my damage to the specific area I'm hunting.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    Just a pop in for @Celina because I saw a math style question.

    Bashing: 
    + If all damage is set equal for normal bashers (warriors, mages, etc, not whips) then casters would be the better bashers.
    + While you get more crits with weaker attacks, damageshift only cares the last successful hit. Monks would do the least (form stops if first hit kills still), warrior would be critting more often but would have a slightly lower average damage when crits are factored with damageshift, then casters would have top bashing rates because you never kill just one of something.
    + Whip is the best basher, while it is not as strong as wand, wand is a considerable amount slower for a one offer.

    I knocked around numbers I do not have on hand, but assuming crit rates were all equal, monks and warriors would get the average damage a hit more regularly, but it is indeed an average. Damageshift however means that casters excess crits mean more.

    Ok, popping back out for the moment, poof.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Hold on, do robes get extra slots in compensation for lower physical defense, as they did with proofings pre-overhaul? 
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    No, proposal has 1 slot for armour, 1 for robes, 2 for master armour, 2 for splendours. And 0 for tattoos (which have their own intrinsic buffs anyway).

  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    As long as it's even a bit cheaper than old runes I'll be happy with this system.
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  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    Slots for tattoos and kephera <3  (3% damage resistance is not comparable to 10% more influence or faster movement D: )
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    An extra 3% for up to 8 different damage types...

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    so what's the status on this?
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    Was there even an answer about coats and cloaks, and if those items will get a single slot?

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