Is this normal?

2

Comments

  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    Now I'm tempted to go with 50% cutting, 1/3 fire, 1/6 psychic. Just 'cause. Rocking 9/11/13 damage buff with that would be interesting.
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  • TwytchTwytch Member Posts: 485 Expert
    If you're a Paradigmatics user, you could also use Reimagination to bring down max health, I think. Sweet sweet damage kills.
    See you in Sapience.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    I might have to play with that. How long does it last? For 3p, is going to need to be a while
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    How the hell are warriors hitting level 13 damage buffs? With a curio, level 3 artifact, and all the generic buffs I can find, I'm only hitting 11 to fire.

    I've noted this in the special report, but warriors doing damage that is anywhere comparable to casters is a strange premise. You don't have to worry about shields, and you deliver venoms and a mandatory ice cure with every hit. Casters dealing damage are only dealing damage. So whether or not one doing x percent of health is "scary," is not a particular helpful debate unless we are considering bumping caster damage or adding venoms to minorsecond and staff points. 

    I also don't think it's appropriate for the class that can mitigate and absorb the most raw damage to also have access to high damage. I don't understand why there shouldn't be a give and take here. 

    I think there are several people working hard to keep warriors balanced, but I'm also getting the distinct feeling (through this discussion and a couple of the special reports like calcise deletion) that some career warriors are forgetting they aren't the only kids in the sandbox. 
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  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    With a lot of tomfoolery on my part. I'll post my bodyscan later. WTB TF, will pay credits.
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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    Celina said:
    I think there are several people working hard to keep warriors balanced, but I'm also getting the distinct feeling (through this discussion and a couple of the special reports like calcise deletion) that some career warriors are forgetting they aren't the only kids in the sandbox. 
    We'll see what we can do about warrior damage, and I'd certainly like it if we continue to discuss it to reach a balanced solution. But I'd really like it if you avoided making comments like the above. I think people have a much wider scoped view of the game balance than you give them credit for. And the calcise deletion report also offers an alternative to that...not to mention it was originally suggested by Viynain back in August...But in any case, you can leave your comments and suggestions on that report yourself.
  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    That's not comparable anyway, because mages also get a crapload of passive abilities when they're rocking their 'only damage.'
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    Edit:Awkward quotes


    No, I will not keep observations to myself (maybe I could phrase it more diplomatically but eh) That report was not submitted by Viynain, I have been the Pyromancer envoy for at least 5 months prior to this report, and its impact to Pyromancers (or Ecologists, but I don't speak for druids) was not discussed with me prior to its posting or represented anywhere in the problem. Yet it still might get implemented because it is now a report and I have no control over its presence, and we all know exactly how that process can go. The admin might consider that the most practical solution to warriors, push it through, and now it's my job to assess the impact on Pyros. Maybe that is the best course of action in the long run, but I think envoys deserve to be part of the conversation before reports they can't control are posted. 

    If you are an envoy and you are creating reports that directly impact other guilds without discussing, referencing, or mentioning those guilds at any point in the discussion, then you are guilty of behaving in the exact manner I mentioned. If they have a wider view of game balance than what is being demonstrated, they are not showing it.

    I think it's very important to remind people not to get tunnel vision. Warrior maluses (or lack of) for high health pools was never addressed, so it's not the first instance of an issue.

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  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    Why would warriors get maluses for high health pools when bards and mages don't have health penalties? We don't get the huge mana/ego they do, and with the prevalence of kills for all 3 vitals that means we have weaknesses like everyone else.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    Needless to say, nothing is as prevalent as damage. Damage remains the dominant kill method by a huge margin (watch any deathsight in any group fight). This was a fact acknowledged in the old system with surge's mana malus. Now it is simply a boon to be a warrior in all fights due to high health pools universally trumping high ego and mana pools. Even more so now considering the effectiveness of damage has been universally lessened. Meaning warriors have higher health than everyone else when each point of health now goes further than it used to, but without any weakness presented a workaround. 

    It should also be noted that mana kills are universally less viable because of the way their formulas work, and the flat mana drain portion of each formula is now less effective almost across the board because mana levels tend to be much higher. Especially for warriors. This was collateral damage of the overhaul that each guild really has to address case by case (if necessary).

    It's been discussed at length, and I don't believe revisiting the minutiae of the issue will result in any new results. Incidentally, this is exactly the kind of tunnel vision that concerns me. I shouldn't even have to explain why health is king. 
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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    oh come on

    Literally everyone has access to damage @Marcella -everyone-.

    There are like 5 or so manakills (Absolve, Wrack, Swoop, Toad, Miasma (or whatever the aero one is called)) I'm probably forgetting one or two.

    There are 3 egokills - Drunkenfool, TP and DW. 

    Everyone can damage people, so having high health pools trumps having high ego or high mana pools -every- time.

    Comparing passive meld ticks that are on 10 second balance and require more than just 'hit so and so for damage' commands (like being enemied, protection scrolls etc, can't complain about rebounding on warriors anymore!) is ridiculous. Celina is correct in that warriors are doing damage + poison + wounds and that needs to be accounted for. You're better off arguing that staffcasts do upwards of 2.5k damage per hit compared to 1.5k warriors do and citing that difference for damage + aff + wounds than trying to justify it with meld ticks.



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    Celina said:
    Edit:Awkward quotes


    No, I will not keep observations to myself (maybe I could phrase it more diplomatically but eh) That report was not submitted by Viynain, I have been the Pyromancer envoy for at least 5 months prior to this report, and its impact to Pyromancers (or Ecologists, but I don't speak for druids) was not discussed with me prior to its posting or represented anywhere in the problem. Yet it still might get implemented because it is now a report and I have no control over its presence, and we all know exactly how that process can go. The admin might consider that the most practical solution to warriors, push it through, and now it's my job to assess the impact on Pyros. Maybe that is the best course of action in the long run, but I think envoys deserve to be part of the conversation before reports they can't control are posted. 

    If you are an envoy and you are creating reports that directly impact other guilds without discussing, referencing, or mentioning those guilds at any point in the discussion, then you are guilty of behaving in the exact manner I mentioned. If they have a wider view of game balance than what is being demonstrated, they are not showing it.

    I think it's very important to remind people not to get tunnel vision. Warrior maluses (or lack of) for high health pools was never addressed, so it's not the first instance of an issue.

    I've made a reply to the report in question (REPORT 1449), so I won't repeat it here. 

    Also, as a public service announcement, and for the sake of transparency, there is indeed a warrior special report ongoing and it can be read on REPORT LIST SPECIAL. It seems like it isn't locked to envoys at this time, according to people, so feel free to puruse them.

    I've started a few reports right now, and they're all in draft form because I want people to comment on it and help shape it before it becomes final and submitted. The deadline is in March.

    Right now there's some design issues with warriors that I'm confident we can work through if we work together, but we need to do just that - work together.

    I know you and others don't have a high opinion of me or my abilities as an envoy, and I have come to terms with that. I started the reports in question because I care deeply for the warrior class and want to see them be solid. Believe it or not, no one really seems to be very happy with me lately and even warriors are reaming me for some of the stances I'm taking. I don't feel like I'm getting a tremendous amount of help here and I certainly don't get anything out of this. There's more than enough reasons why I should have walked away from this altogether, but here I am trying to make things right, while still trying to keep people happy.

    Regardless, I'll clarify the point that I did consider the implications of removing calcise and dendroxin on other guilds. It was an issue we also brought up in August, and Ieptix has expressed amenability to patching classes it would affect if we go that route.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    What. I have a very high opinion of you, particularly as an envoy (for whatever that is worth). Not being consulted on something I think was important to the guild I envoy for doesn't change that, nor does the issue reflect any personal opinions of mine about any envoy.

    I want warriors to be solid too, but my point is if that is at the expense of the guild I am an envoy for, I don't believe it fair for me to be relegated to just a comment on a report. The report needs to be inclusive, not piecemeal. If X guild that works fine is taking a hit to make warriors work, that issue and solution needs to be included in the report. That envoy should not be surprised when that report pops up.

    I simply think there are issues going on and they are not isolated, and I think that is worth mentioning. It's not a Rivius thing (see Marcella's comment, for example). I think it's a conversation that needs to be had, and so I had it. 
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  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso
    What if you just patched calcise/dendroxin so it's not able to be used on warrior weapons specifically.
    It has functionality in Tracker spikepits still, not to mention the other guilds that use it.

    As for the Health/Mana debate. I am on the tone down damage side. As stated Damage is universal to every class. Warriors enjoy a very high health pool, and currently not only do I have a high health pool13:13 I have a  mid range mana pool to ignore those mana kills with; unsurged 5:13.

    I also think the poison giving buffs need a look at, because with Poison Expert, Poisonist, and Honed weapons I was watching my poisons either not deliver, fail, or possibly be shrugged more often than not. At least from my perspective with the thought that that much stacking should be near 100% delivery.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    Here you go @Celina.
    Edit: Am using Polarity to swap my psychic buff and resist.

    *****************************[ Bodyscan - Buffs ]******************************
    Stat          Effect                                  Value   Max 
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Universal     Geburah                                 1       2
    Universal     Strength                                2       3
    Universal     Kirigami charm                          1       5
    Universal     Raging alcoholic                        4       8
    Universal     Liquid fortune                          2       10
                    Total                                 10
                                                                     
    Blunt         Artifact rune                           3       13
                    Total (including universal)           13
                                                                     
    Cutting       Artifact rune                           3       13
                    Total (including universal)           13
                                                                     
    Fire          Tattoo                                  1       5
    Fire          Sacred candle                           1       7
    Fire          Artifact rune                           3       13
                    Total (including universal)           13
                                                                     
    Asphyxiation  Artifact rune                           3       13
                    Total (including universal)           13
                                                                     
    Psychic       Foresaken's resolve                     4       8
    Psychic       Artifact rune                           1       11
    Psychic       Wonderpipe                              3       13
                    Total (including universal)           13
                                                                     
    Excorable     Artifact rune                           1       11
                    Total (including universal)           11
                                                                     
    Divinus       Curio                                   2       7
                    Total (including universal)           10
                                                                     
    *******************************************************************************
    [25:12.782][H:100%|M:91%|E:100%][EN:100%|WP:100%][P:10(124)][dbkrxlr][0][nil](-28m, 0.3%) 
    You have recovered equilibrium.
     ----------------------------------- 
    |     EQUILIBRIUM | EQUILIBRIUM     |
     -----------------------------------  (1.517s)
    [25:14.298][H:100%|M:91%|E:100%][EN:100%|WP:100%][P:10(124)][dbkrexlr][0][nil]bodyscan resistances full
    You fumble about drunkenly.
    [25:16.295][H:100%|M:90%|E:100%][EN:100%|WP:100%][P:10(124)][dbkrexlr][0][nil](-114m, 1.3%) bodyscan resistances full
    **************************[ Bodyscan - Resistances ]***************************
    Stat          Effect                                  Value   Max 
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Universal     Kirigami charm                          1       5
    Universal     Sacred candle                           1       7
    Universal     Chaote sign                             3       8
    Universal     Liquid fortune                          2       10
                    Total                                 7
                                                                     
    Blunt         Resilience                              1       6
                    Total (including universal)           8
                                                                     
    Cutting       Resilience                              1       6
    Cutting       Artifact rune                           1       11
                    Total (including universal)           9
                                                                     
    Magical       Magical attunement                      1       4
    Magical       Furrikin                                2       4
    Magical       Tattoo                                  1       5
    Magical       Resistance                              1       8
    Magical       Numinous draconic scales                1       8
                    Total (including universal)           10
                                                                     
    Fire          Frost potion                            1       5
    Fire          Fortuna                                 1       5
    Fire          Sacred candle                           1       7
    Fire          Fitness                                 1       8
                    Total (including universal)           10
                                                                     
    Cold          Furrikin                                2       4
    Cold          Tattoo                                  1       5
    Cold          Fire potion                             1       5
                    Total (including universal)           10
                                                                     
    Poison        Resilience                              1       5
                    Total (including universal)           8
                                                                     
    Electricity   Tattoo                                  1       5
    Electricity   Galvanism                               1       5
                    Total (including universal)           9
                                                                     
    Psychic       Tattoo                                  1       5
                    Total (including universal)           10
                                                                     
    Divinus       Tattoo                                  1       5
    Divinus       Curio                                   2       7
                    Total (including universal)           10
                                                                     
    *******************************************************************************
    image
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    I personally think removing calcise and dendroxin are good moves, particularly good for new warriors. I personally think removing damagedlimbs as they exist (not the poisons alone) is the better move, especially with how it interacts with the new restorative ice cure strategy. But removing the poisons first would be a good start. The need to address non warrior classes who use poisons can be handled on a case-by-case basis outside of warriors... it might break some classes in the meantime, but I'm personally not sure if there's a non-warrior class that has calcise/dendroxin tied to their primary offense... except maybe sap-druids. (Hoorah)

    Warrior damage formulas will definitely need tweaking - it might even need tweaking upwards, depending on what the administration decide is causing the higher points of physical damage all around right now. Fury is now ridiculous (doing more damage than woodchem bombs with their new racial buffs AND costing less overall, poor woodchems) where before it was the red-headed stepchild of meld-unleashes, monks have had their damage multipliers removed (wounds) and are STILL doing twice or thrice their normal damage frequently, etc. If they lower physical damage across the board with armour and/or physical resist interactions, we could see warrior damage drop way too low again. Of course, health averages have risen, so arguments could be made to keep things as-is, but it's still important to keep an eye on how the new damage benchmarks measure against lower health targets without access to high health buffs.

    The actual %health damage a warrior should do to be "balanced" is definitely still up for debate.

  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    Splendors, 6 cutting resist, 3 psychic resist, 6800hp vs 13 cutting buff, 13 psychic buff, 1/3+1/6 damage as psychic, aggressive stance 
    Standard hit: 1840 at heavy and critical wounds.
    Opencavity: 4015 at heavy and critical wounds. Which is odd, since the damage is supposed to scale up with wounds.
    image
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    As far as I can tell, they seem to be doing more damage at a faster pace than my generator hyperbeam despite chemwoods supposedly being a damage class.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    I proposed moving burns to ice (from liniment) and to remove calcise. Then I can report pyrotoxin to do burns as a replacement to animate dagger strats. I think it'll work. 

    Ablaze would also need to be moved to ice. 

    I do more damage than Sidd, but it's not a huge difference in terms of DPS. I doubt I could straight up damage kill him, but with open cavity and once I update my prios I suspect he will be able to smash through my 11k forcefield. Warrior damage is definitely too much as is. I do not think it's fair that warriors can pressure both health and wounds simultaneously, when they are both on separate cure balances. Ignoring broken legs and just applying ice for wounds, I could not keep up. I could tank his damage but I was dipping into the 2k-3k health range PLUS dropping to yellow mana (and I have 11k mana and a magi crown which reduces clot costs). If I wanted to actually hit him back, I would have to apply ice for the breaks, which would then really screw me over in terms of wounds. 

    For context, I can't pressure any of my kill methods simultaneously. Vessels, burns, and damage all use entirely different strategies. 


    I think Rivius was correct and calcise should be removed as a venom. I can work around it, assuming Ieptix lets me implement the burn and pyrotoxin change simultaneously with the calcise change.
    Post edited by Cyndarin on
    image
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited February 2016
    Not sure if I need more resistances but with 7 resistance for cutting and blunt I'm taking this kind of damage:

    Malarious thrusts a clawed fist towards you, ripping at the air before your face.
    Malarious razes your speed defence with a clawed fist.
    With a quick spin, Malarious kicks you in the gut with his left foot.
    11:37:54 [H:85%|5811][M:91%|8076][E:100%|7300][p:10(80)][14.46m]ex(sip quicksilver)(-989h, 14.5%) 

    Malarious swiftly grabs you and hurls you forcefully to the ground.
    You are afflicted with sprawled.
    With a quick spin, Malarious kicks you in the head with his left foot. (2.517s)
    11:37:59 [H:52%|3600][M:89%|7869][E:100%|7300][p:10(80)][14.46m]Pe(-1372h, 20.2%) 

    Malarious whips you with a long black chain with steel scythes, lashing the skin from your left leg.
    Malarious whips you with a long black chain with steel scythes, lashing the skin from your left leg.
    With a quick spin, Malarious kicks you in the left leg with his left foot.
    11:38:02 [H:33%|2245][M:98%|8676][E:100%|7300][p:10(80)][14.46m]Pe(-2511h, 36.9%) 

    I'm guessing the prone and my low health is just pushing the damage over the edge.
    Edit: Disreagard----
    Edit: Yeah, I need to get more health buffs. Don't go into combat without platter/pizzazz :P
    Post edited by Yarith on
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,788 Transcendent
    Blaeke whips you with a long black chain with steel scythes, lashing the skin from your chest.
    The clouds around you thunder and a bolt of lightning strikes Blaeke.
    A rush of icy air leaves your pores and surrounds Blaeke in a frigid cloud, turning her potions to
    slush.
    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.
    Blaeke whips you with a long black chain with steel scythes, lashing the skin from your chest.
    The clouds around you thunder and a bolt of lightning strikes Blaeke.
    With a quick spin, Blaeke kicks you in the chest with her left foot.
    The clouds around you thunder and a bolt of lightning strikes Blaeke.
    6590h|79%, 9265m|99%, 8414e|95%, 10p, 100w%, 100e% @beastexbk- ; Stanza: [@stanza] <34.42m>(focus
    body|eat sparkleberry|outr sparkleberry|sip cloudberry)(-1995h, 24.0%)


    this was with no wounds on my chest, and presumably blaeke was at 0 mo because I hadn't seen him fighting beforehand nor had he been attacking me previously.

    image
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Yes, physical damage is off the charts, like I mentioned a couple of posts back. The only monk multiplier that exists now is the prone multiplier, which is 50% - and it triggered off the paralysis you got from his poison, boosting his second chain hit and his kick. Because the base damage is way up due to the physical damage changes, the boost also is higher than before - it won't go much higher than this, because wound multipliers don't exist anymore, unless he uses another chain attack or kick that has even higher base damage than the ones he's using now.

    This is why fury is doing things like 60% max health damage, outstripping, outranging, and outclassing every woodchem bomb ever, etc etc (again refer to my post up there).

  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited February 2016
    All meld bombs are super strong. 
    Geomancy Pollute does about 69-80% of my health.
    Inferno does about the same too.

    (And Maelstrom has always done around the 66% mark)
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    It isn't 'physical damage', it's 'axelords and monks' right now.


    Bonecrushers do like 400 dmg a hit and pureblades aren't that far up from that.


    Monks are acknowledged as broken because, when wounds got changed, they put it up to some number as a temporary measure becuase monk damage used to build on wounds, so now it works like you're always at heavy wounds or something.
    image
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    I don't know if it is physical damage, specifically, as my inferno does more than what I take from fury (5400 of my 11k) when I have tested it, and having been hit by fury 4 times today, none of it seemed really dangerous or out of line with a 10 power, requires a meld, and uses all mana attack. 
    image
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    My chem bombs cry at meld bombs.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,788 Transcendent
    Marcella strikes at your chest with an engraved axe with inlaid rubies.
    The blade shears through your body before coming clean through the other side with a strangely quiet
    swish, momentarily surprising you with its force, before you feel distinctly unwell and collapse to
    the ground.
    You have been slain by Marcella.
    You become visible once more.
    You come back into focus as the blur illusion vanishes.
    Within the blink of an eye, your phantom armour dissipates into the aether.
    A kafe bean falls out of your inventory.
    A stalk of faeleaf falls out of your inventory.
    A sparkleberry falls out of your inventory.
    The mortal threads of your being severed, you scream in agony as the Divine spark within you enfolds
    your body with scorching flames. (38.599s)
    (p)

    (m&mf): We died.
    0h|0%, 10105m|98%, 9300e|100%, 10p, 100w%, 100e% @beastex- ; Stanza: [@stanza] <35.07m>(-3645h, 39.2%,-500e, 5.4%)

    seems legit

    (heavy chest wounds, idk if opencavity hit or not)

    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,788 Transcendent
    More:

    Marcella strikes at your chest with an engraved axe with inlaid rubies.
    The clouds around you thunder and a bolt of lightning strikes Marcella.
    Marcella cuts through your abdominal wall, exposing your innards to the environment.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    3701h|39%, 8980m|87%, 9800e|100%, 10p, 100w%, 100e% @beastexbk- ; Stanza: [@stanza] <35.12m>(sip
    health|sip lucidity|read 207279|recharge 207279 from cube)(-4405h, 47.4%)

    with heavy chest wounds.

    image
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    Buff/resist of both, armor, sensitivity on?
    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,788 Transcendent
    Blunt         Resilience                              1       4
    Blunt         Stone skin                              2       10
                    Total (including universal)           4
                                                                     
    Cutting       Resilience                              1       4
    Cutting       Stone skin                              2       10
                    Total (including universal)           4
                                                               

    no sensitivity as far as I can tell, not paralysed, have greatrobes on.

    But who cares about all that, I'm showing you a log of a warrior doing more than double my staffcasts on a shorter balance.

    image
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