Returning Newbie Woes

Raefyr

Hey all,

I played around with the idea of returning to Lusternia... it's been several years.

I logged on, went through the newbie quest(much better than before really, I like the intro!).

But... regardless of the guild I contemplated, I started reading the various scrolls relevant to advancement and for heaven-sake, I got seriously put off.

I realize that getting to GR3 is a big deal, and so are advancements beyond that... but -come- on. The sheer number of tasks is tedious, not to mention that most guilds don't have enough active people to really oversee these trials without people having to wait, sometimes for extensive periods of time.

It's a roleplaying game, I get it, and a degree of seriousness and dedication is a reasonable thing to expect from someone reaching GR3... but I think that throughout the course of the years, the system has gone overboard. You barely see people with guild ranks between 3 and 19/20. The progress should be fun, it should be about character development, about growth, about upholding a guild's standards and spirit- this "obtain X herbs, get Y robes, donate at least Z money" over and OVER again for every single step is an insane turn off- I see what's ahead and I just feel like QQ.

What's the point of tasks like "read this book, and then write a summary of that piece of text".

If anything, maybe we should consider REAL life systems and advancement within them- Passing X time under the guidance of a supervisor, at the end of which he may approve or not, of sponsoring you further. Projects- extensive ones, that demand thought and attention, not a shopping list- one which repeats itself not only through advancement but also marks some of the most tedious daily tasks that come with playing the game- why is it sensible to milk the very gold coins a newbie manages to get for guild donations? or force them to buy things they may or may not feel they require at the point? why not leave the choice to them? 

The few tasks I saw that allowed -some- ingenuity are insanely high up there- first pass Collegium, advancement to GR1, then apprenticeship to GR3, and THEN start some quasi-constructed system that's supposed to really set you on track- it's shopping lists upon shopping lists of boring things. If combat is important to said person, he will make sure to equip himself well- if not, no amount of herbs is gonna do him any good. Same for everything else.

Sorry for the rant, I just really felt like returning and got seriously bummed to see that not only did nothing change over said years, it became even more tiring and extensive.

Steingrim

Equipping isn't just for combat it is also so you can hunt and when you're out exploring you don't get stuck or die as easily. There's a current move to reduce the numbers of cures so that will in time decrease. It'll always be a struggle in a game with 'lots of things' that you'll 'need many of them'.

For the most part you don't need to bother with guild rank and there are times when I never did unless you want certain things.

Generally those tasks could be viewed as the things that newbies suggested they need to know by regularly finding themselves in some predicament or asking about how to get to x or the significance of something. Tasks generally fall into the category of  things you should know or things you should have.

You're right that in some guilds there's a sort of 'this should be somewhat difficult' or 'this should weed out those who really want it from those who do not'. I don't know I have a problem with the donation one (but that depends on how much, what Guild Rank it is a requirement, and how optional it is) if the point is to make sure that people are contributing to the guild.

You're also right that some of this is arbitrary some guilds will have n tasks while others some other number.

Enyalida

Steingrim is right in that some guilds require equipment early on, but it's usually what is considered baseline for exploring without getting stuck or dying to npcs because you had no curatives. So, a bit of lucidity, a bit of ice, health, and mana potions. 

The big takeaway here is that guilds are going away fairly soon, and while that doesn't necessarily help you in the short term, it means that the new factions hopefully won't have some of the same issues with scads and scads of pointless ranks. 

Shaddus

Yeah, that whole "you actually have to invest in something and work to get what you want" thing really sucks. Frankly, I think people should be handed ranks just because they ask.

As for GR3, most guilds tend to want to make sure you are prepared for general life in Lusternia because you can contest for guild leadership at GR3.

Allyrianne

Raefyr said:

Hey all,

I played around with the idea of returning to Lusternia... it's been several years.

I logged on, went through the newbie quest(much better than before really, I like the intro!).

But... regardless of the guild I contemplated, I started reading the various scrolls relevant to advancement and for heaven-sake, I got seriously put off.

I realize that getting to GR3 is a big deal, and so are advancements beyond that... but -come- on. The sheer number of tasks is tedious, not to mention that most guilds don't have enough active people to really oversee these trials without people having to wait, sometimes for extensive periods of time.

It's a roleplaying game, I get it, and a degree of seriousness and dedication is a reasonable thing to expect from someone reaching GR3... but I think that throughout the course of the years, the system has gone overboard. You barely see people with guild ranks between 3 and 19/20. The progress should be fun, it should be about character development, about growth, about upholding a guild's standards and spirit- this "obtain X herbs, get Y robes, donate at least Z money" over and OVER again for every single step is an insane turn off- I see what's ahead and I just feel like QQ.

What's the point of tasks like "read this book, and then write a summary of that piece of text".

If anything, maybe we should consider REAL life systems and advancement within them- Passing X time under the guidance of a supervisor, at the end of which he may approve or not, of sponsoring you further. Projects- extensive ones, that demand thought and attention, not a shopping list- one which repeats itself not only through advancement but also marks some of the most tedious daily tasks that come with playing the game- why is it sensible to milk the very gold coins a newbie manages to get for guild donations? or force them to buy things they may or may not feel they require at the point? why not leave the choice to them? 

The few tasks I saw that allowed -some- ingenuity are insanely high up there- first pass Collegium, advancement to GR1, then apprenticeship to GR3, and THEN start some quasi-constructed system that's supposed to really set you on track- it's shopping lists upon shopping lists of boring things. If combat is important to said person, he will make sure to equip himself well- if not, no amount of herbs is gonna do him any good. Same for everything else.

Sorry for the rant, I just really felt like returning and got seriously bummed to see that not only did nothing change over said years, it became even more tiring and extensive.

I feel like there's more variety in advancement requirements than you may have encountered. Some guilds definitely seem like they have a lot of busywork, others, I think, do a fairly good job. If you're frustrated with specific guild tasks, I'd really suggest contacting the GA (or in some cases GM, or both!) of the guild, either by message or letter or in person, and attempting to open up some communication about it. I know I am always happy to listen/read feedback on the Symphonium's tasks.

Some things to keep in mind, that might help make some of this (slightly) more palatable/understandable.

1. Designing tasks is hard. Especially when you think about the fact that your novices are either a) Entirely new to ire muds and need help with everything, from cures so they don't panic the first time they get afflicted while bashing in the ruins of Shallach, to the fact that armour for certain guilds is robes/dresses/suits, to where to hunt, when, while also trying to give them a taste of the guild's lore, b) Have familiarity with ire muds, but may or may not run into difficulties with Lusternia specific things like power, c) alts who don't need to be told any of the material stuff, who just want that rp/or those combat skills, and who may or may not vanish back to their mains in a week no matter what.
2. Even if you have the people for super intense one-on-one mentorship/apprenticeship relationships now, three months from now everything will be different. Guild tasks that work fantastic at retaining novices by in depth interaction with older guildmembers just don't work the same way when suddenly its exam season in real life, and ic drama sent one guild leader off in a huff, while someone else who used to be around all the time has just disappeared off the face of the earth, and the most active secretary just moved to Australia and is now around on oceanic primetime when the bulk of your novices are stateside.
3. Sometimes, no matter what you do, the novices never come back. It is incredibly, incredibly easy to get burnt out when you sink a lot of time into mentoring a novice, only to suddenly have them never log in again. It's also therefore very tempting, and sometimes even the healthiest thing, to not require that undersecs, secs and guild leaders drop everything to interact constantly with the novices.

But yes, there are definitely guilds that have a lot of busywork related tasks. But also sometimes those books are ones that very accurately and succinctly summarise a guild's ethos, and so it makes more sense to teach the novice how to use the library and make them read the book, than insist they wait around until someone has the time to sit with them and talk them through the points the book covers.

TL;DR Not all guilds. Also bring this stuff up ic and either cause things to change or get an explanation for why it's the way it is. Or just be GR1 forever and don't set much store in guild ranks because there's plenty to do otherwise as well.

Raefyr

see below

Raefyr

Shaddus: 

Well, having played extensively in the past, getting to well above GR3 at several guilds, at another being the GA- I think I am entitled to voice said opinion- if your automatic response is a condescending remark, that's fine, but it doesn't contribute to your argument nor diminishes from mine.

I also don't recall writing anywhere that guild ranks should be awarded for no effort- actually the ideas I suggested can be quite a bit more difficult, but at least they aren't repetitive shopping lists.

Also, at GR3 you can contest... alright- will you really be winning any elections if all you did was follow the tasks? or will you win only if you put a hell of allot more effort into actually being a prominent guild member, that gathered support through embodying the guild's spirit? 

I am leaning towards the latter, and I think that guild advancements should be rewarded on activities that are more in line of the latter than the former.

Allyrianne:

Valid points all around... but that's kind of obvious... I mean, big issues aren't big issues because they are simple to resolve or have petty reasons- everything you stated is more or less true.

However, when you go to school you're not asked to buy a first aid kit, when you go to college you're not asked to wear proper clothing- the game has enough means to point you towards requiring to know these things- they will want to fight, they will need to learn about it, but it is silly to impede RP progress(advancement in guild) for the sake of technicalities.

I was a GA once and I agree- it's a pain in the arse to re-create tasks- but I think that's because we're accustomed to thinking a certain way- boring tasks are indeed hard to make up, but ones that are actually meaningful? I think that's less of an issue...

And OK, I agree that a more independent learning style is more appropriate due to mentor scarcity, but I still think it can be done.

IMHO- the Collegium is a sufficient mechanic to ensure that novices learn the basics- other than that, I think a guild should provide said information in the form of scrolls, but no more than that- whoever wishes to learn combat will have to learn these things, whoever will want to debate- likewise, I think that guilds should be more about roleplaying and actual guild values rather than layers of tasks.

Falaeron

I don't think it's a valid argument trying to compare real life education to education of characters in a game like this. To be honest I think the kind of advancement you want will only appeal to a certain type of player whereas many players will probably prefer having a simple, clear-cut way of advancing. Some people do want to be able to advance to a certain rank as quickly as possible and having access to whatever that rank unlocks as soon as possible. Additionally, making mentorship like you describe a requirement puts a lot of strain on the already limited number of people who can teach.

It also varies from guild to guild. I think the requirements for Aeromancer advancement are very fair. Novicehood to GR1 is just a set of tasks that anyone who has any experience in the game should be able to complete without any effort. GR1 to GR3 requires completion of four out of six task sets with each aimed at trying to introduce and prepare you to one aspect of the guild/city/game. Yes, there is one task set which is obtaining (a very small number of) cures and other equipment while most people do it because it is honestly very easy and despite what you think you will probably need the cures at some point there is no obligation for someone to do it even if they do want to advance. I also have seen some of the advancement systems of other guilds that have a much more closed set of tasks that are non-optional but ultimately cures and equipment are necessary even if someone isn't interested in ever taking part in combat. On top of this I would think that most guilds/leaders would be willing to assist novices with obtaining these items.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't also have alternative advancement paths but I think those are better discussed with the guild leaders on a case-by-case basis. I'd be willing for members of my guild to do alternative tasks for advancement but I can also understand why some leaders might not want to commit to that because it can be a huge commitment from their end too.

Raefyr

Falmiis- a very well explained opinion, with valid reasoning behind it.

You may be right in regards to degree of appeal, or you may not be... it is, at this point, a difference of what I feel are two very valid perspectives and opinions.

I do want to note though that I disagree with the concept of expecting a novice to appeal to the guild leaders and explain why their systems may be faulty- it's presumptuous from an RP point of view... it is also not logically sound to expect a novice to usher in these changes...

I am trying to offer an external, OOC feedback regarding why many people do not get more involved in guilds, and maybe this is one of the contributing factors to that somewhat low novice retention the game seems to suffer from.

I am willing to admit that my opinion is very subjective on account of already going through all of these task-sets many times- but to be fair, this game would be better off if it knew how to cater to people who play more than one character as well, or leave and return at some point. 

I am not saying I have all the answers, far from it- my ideas may not even be horribly original... all I did was share my personal feelings and experience when I considered returning. 

Yarith

Actually, the aquamancer tasks aren't that bad at all. I've jumped guilds a lot and the ones in the Aquamancers are both forward and pretty easy to do. There's a bit of writing at the start, yes, pretty much every guild which likes embedding lore into what it does has this to some degree. The Aquamancers, like most other guilds in the game, also give you the ability to choose a path to go down after getting about gr2. It's hardly 'Get X Y Z'. If you don't want to do the guild tasks or want an alternative program, just ask. If you think you've done something worthy of being favoured, just ask. When I was in the Aquamancers I would often be favoured just off of mainting the Sea

Allyrianne

It's a little difficult to have this conversation in generalities, which is why I think bringing it up in game with the people who can make the changes you're talking about might be a more productive conversation than talking about it here. Sure a typical novice shouldn't be expected to do so, but you're clearly not a typical novice. I will say that I think the bigger issue is more, does the novice get interaction from the higher ups, rather than what the particular list of tasks the novice gets pointed towards is.

That said, it is worth GAs and GMs going back through their advancement tasks periodically to make sure that task-creep has not snuck in, and to strike a good balance between a checklist and flowery paragraphs of lore to explain what needs to be done.

To offer a different perspective, I am personally quite grateful to early tasks requiring me to get certain items, because otherwise the first time just-out-of-novice-me walked into a statue in an enemy village I would have been worse off than I was.

The collegium is very much not sufficient for novices to learn the basics. It can help, and for some people it is enough. But for me, and certain friends I've attempted to get into the game, the collegium was interesting but actually learning the basics came much later. The healing aspects in particular can be problematic, because in certain places, if you kill something fast enough you never get afflicted, while in others giving the cures to someone else doesn't necessarily help you remember them later. I'm not sure there's really a way to fix this. Only certain people are ever going to get the basics out of a brief tutorial session. A lot of people will need to learn by actually playing.

It's really easy to design a task system that you personally would really enjoy advancing through, but that other people are going to dislike. (Also, for the Symphonium, novice retention is less an issue than the fact that we get novices very very rarely)

One thing I've tried to do to combat the fact that Symphonium's a tiny guild is to make it so that tasks can either be completed in person or via writing, and the Aeromancers can proctor advancement for us as well. Would it be productive to the conversation to throw up some of the tasks that those of us here think are pretty good and discuss specifics?

Enyalida

The game actually doesn't really provide any pointers on what armor to wear, how or where to get it, or even how to use it (as obvious as it might seem). The new introduction provides almost no guidance on practical matters of how to play the game, like purchasing and using curatives. You've pointed out that you're an experienced player, so these things might seem obvious to you, but they aren't necessarily obvious to new players. 

Open ended tasks naturally come later in a system of advancement that progresses in complexity. My own designs start with simple checklist tasks for getting out of novicehood, intended expressly to prepare the player with the baseline for playing the game: Have very basic curatives needed to not get stuck if you fall out of a tree or find an npc that breaks limbs/gives stupidity (The most common npc affs). Have a minimal description. Learn about FIRSTAID, CURING, etc. Learn how to talk on channels to ask for help with these if you have trouble.

After that, you break into GR1-3 tasks. These are still linear in structure (do this, then do this, etc), but are broken out into two separate task blocks (gr1-2, 2-3). One is about learning the practical bits of being in the guild. All members in the druid guild should know what a meld is and the very basics of how the work. They should know that the -wood option exists. They should know the practical basics about how the different kinds of trees work. They should know where their guiding spirit is, and the aspects of that spirit.

The other is about learning guild details and rules , with two readings and questions to follow. These are legitimately something on the order of 10 paragraphs long, with 7-ish questions total between them - and we're more than happy to just walk you through the questions if you're having trouble. As pointed out by someone else, it's partially just to teach you about libraries and to give you the tools to discover existing lore or information on your own. This information covers the basic history of the guild and the guild rules. 

In other words, at GR3, you're an official member of the guild  - a Druid - with the full sanction of the guild. It'd frankly be embarrassing to have druids running around without clue one on the essential topics covered in the advancement. Doubly so to have someone elected to a guild position with such blatant gaps in knowledge. It's not about "I went uphill both ways in the snow" style forcing people to work for goals, it's about quality control at the most basic level. 

After GR3 has always been a sticking point in my guild, with diverging opinions and very little interest from guild members. The mechanical perks for rank more or less end at GR5 with the secret (and oft unused, in my experience) guild channel, most players (Again, in my experience) don't bother with any kind of formal training beyond the third rank. 

EDIT: Also, in my experience elections do not at all proceed in the way you describe. Often, there is only a contestant when either the current leader has done something egregious/is a shrub, the current leader has gone dormant/vacated/is a shrub, or the contesting person knows (or thinks) they have a majority who would prefer them over the current leader before they contest, regardless of any news posts made during the election. In many guilds (in Serenwilde at least), when someone contests a position there might be no other eligible person to contest the election. Sometimes this is  just because the other people aren't interested in leadership positions, sometimes it's literal - there are no other active members above gr3 who aren't already in elected positions.

Shaddus

I didn't say you weren't entitled to your opinion, I said I generally disagreed with it, or at least the way you're explaining it. Not only that, but having held a guild leader position doesn't give you any more oomph to your argument than not having held one. While I applaud your having held what is arguably the least thanked and most important position in a guild, I don't feel it adds any weight to your opinion. Else, (at least on the forums), I'd probably have more weight than most.


That being said, I do agree that we need incentives to get people to want to do tasks and advance beyond GR3, and I'd -love- a style of progression that isn't just "have clothes, have a description, make sure you can cure basic things, know the name of your guildmaster", but it's not gonna happen. If people can't do the drudgery of making sure they look the part of the guild they may some day represent, I don't feel like they should gain the privileges given to higher ranks.


Now, if you want to unobtrusively copy and paste a particular guild's advancement and ww can chat about it, that's cool. I don't feel blanket statements about how we're going about it the wrong way is going to fix anything.

Yarou

But... regardless of the guild I contemplated, I started reading the various scrolls relevant to advancement and for heaven-sake, I got seriously put off.

Okay. Fair point. I know you're not looking at the Cacophony, though, because everyone breezes through our tasks. They're ridiculously easy and we've actually had complaints that they're too simple. Recent complaints. You'd be surprised at how many players want to be challenged.

The sheer number of tasks is tedious, not to mention that most guilds don't have enough active people to really oversee these trials without people having to wait, sometimes for extensive periods of time.

Seriously, come to the Cacophony. I have like, no life whatsoever, so I derp on Lusternia and smother all my novices with gold, equipment, and attention.

The progress should be fun, it should be about character development, about growth, about upholding a guild's standards and spirit- this "obtain X herbs, get Y robes, donate at least Z money" over and OVER again for every single step is an insane turn off- I see what's ahead and I just feel like QQ.

Okay, what guild(s) have you been looking at?? I've only played in the Cacophony, Minstrels, the Harbingers [kindof] and the Blacktalon. If anything, the scrolls have a ridiculous amount of preppy-talk about guild spirit and blah blah blah. I have to skip over that shit and scroll endlessly to find the tasks.

What's the point of tasks like "read this book, and then write a summary of that piece of text".

The point of reading and writing summaries is to demonstrate that you've grasped the point of the text. Sure it might not be the best way to do that, but you can always compromise and use words to demonstrate an understanding of the text, e.g.

Zarialle asks, "Yarou, where did the Taint come from?"
Yarou: "The Emperor's failure of an expedition."

If anything, maybe we should consider REAL life systems and advancement within them- Passing X time under the guidance of a supervisor, at the end of which he may approve or not, of sponsoring you further.

Well. The issue here is that, like you said earlier, a lot of guilds just don't have the members for a one on one approach. We do, however, encourage novices to seek out mentors if they wish for one.

Projects -- extensive ones, that demand thought and attention, not a shopping list --  one which repeats itself not only through advancement but also marks some of the most tedious daily tasks that come with playing the game -- why is it sensible to milk the very gold coins a newbie manages to get for guild donations?

You raise a very good point here, I admit. The Cacophony doesn't request gold donations, at least not as far as I know. Whatever guilds do this are very, very bad. Shame on them. I mean, a lot of guilds are already loaded out the ass with gold. Cities and communes, especially. If they aren't, then .. well, it shouldn't be up to their novices to help generate an income. That's a no-no.

Or force them to buy things they may or may not feel they require at the point? why not leave the choice to them? 

Hehehheh. You think I don't know how the little ones work? If the choice is left up to them, they'll put off getting equipment for as long as they can. Or maybe that was just me. On a serious note, however, the reason why we "force" [why such strong words, yo] our novices to buy such things [what things, exactly?] is because we just want to make sure you're prepared. You'd be surprised at how many times I'll go to take a group of city novices hunting on Icewynd and this happens.

[get rekt]: You say, "Does everyone have fire potion? As its name suggests, Icewynd is one of the arctic regions and thusly has some of the bitterest and coldest of weather. Which means that for the duration of the trip, you'll take damage from the cold and without fire potion, it's very possible you may freeze to death."
[get rekt]: Novice #1 says, "Yes, Conductress, I have fire potion!"
[get rekt]: Novice #2 says, "Me, too. I'm ready!"
[get rekt]: Novice #2 says, "I am prepared, as well."
[get rekt]: You say, "Okay, then we're off!"
< 5 minutes into the trip, two novices of the three get afflicted with disrupted >
[get rekt]: You say, "Sip fire, you two."
[get rekt]: Novice #1 says, "I don't think I have any."
[get rekt]: Novice #2 says, "I have some, I think, but for some reason, I can't sip from it .."

Turns out, Novice #1 wasn't as prepared as he thought he was. And Novice #2 did have fire potion, but forgot to use teardrop sigils to link it to her rift. Novice #3 won a gold star for listening to his elders.

The few tasks I saw that allowed -some- ingenuity are insanely high up there- first pass Collegium, advancement to GR1, then apprenticeship to GR3, and THEN start some quasi-constructed system that's supposed to really set you on track- it's shopping lists upon shopping lists of boring things.

What guild are you looking at. Pls tell me.

If combat is important to said person, he will make sure to equip himself well- if not, no amount of herbs is gonna do him any good. Same for everything else.

I have to go eat. Otherwise, I'd answer this last bit.

Sorry for the rant, I just really felt like returning and got seriously bummed to see that not only did nothing change over said years, it became even more tiring and extensive.

You're okay. It's okay. I understand your frustration -- it's totally valid and I'm sorry you feel this way. But hey, there's gonna be a guild overhaul soon! [soon as in two years, but ..]

Raefyr

Enyalida- I think we're saying the same thing. Gathering support before an elections usually means that connections and relationships were forged... on the background of things other than fulfilling advancement tasks... I don't think we're at contradiction here.

Shaddus- I don't know why you're insisting on bringing in so much antagonism into what is supposed to be a simple sharing of an opinion. First you reply in a manner insinuating that I am clueless, then when I clarify that I do know at least a bit about what I'm talking about, you're turning it into an odd contest and adding all sorts of none- existing subtext  regarding the "weight" of my opinion- opinions are opinions, and unless they are backed by solid facts, remain exactly that- opinions.

My own view is backed up by nothing but personal perspective/experience/subjective personality, no facts to speak of- I never even hinted at this being anything other than an opinion, nor at it's importance below or above anyone else's.

I do not feel like copying and pasting is a fair thing to do, I am not trying to put to shame any single guild, or even a few- I felt those vibes from basically all the advancement tracks I ran across... I think that the sentiment does resonate with at least a few of the people who read this, and maybe not- I can speak only for myself....

Agree, disagree- it's all fair. 

Shaddus

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but all you're giving us is "Hey, I think advancement in this random guild is all wrong/could be better. I can't believe it hasn't gotten better since I left." Without naming the guild or even giving us any sort of details. Not only that, but you seem to have this idea that it's wrong to ask a newbie to pay gold to supply themselves. To the contrary, I think a newbie should be shown not only how to make gold (which isn't hard, nor rare), but the best ways to make it last, and how to shop around. Self sufficient newbies are happy newbies. Newbies that get handed things and pushed off to "do their own thing" don't usually last or stick around.


So I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you want to give some specific instances where you think a guild advancement setup is wrong, by all means, let us know what it is. Better yet, play in that guild, get some rank/respect, and help the GA rework the advancement. Even better yet, take over GA and not only show us how it's done, prove yourself right and have a flourishing guild full of happy and productive members.

Raefyr

I'm afraid that's all I have to give man... I don't believe in "shaming" any specific guild, especially since I feel it would be horribly patronizing of me- I haven't been a player for a good while now, who am I to start pointing fingers at specific guilds?

I want to clarify, I never intended to say that newbies shouldn't supply themselves- only that maybe the guild shouldn't prioritize the order and time in which they choose to go about it... what if a newbie wants to delve strictly into a craft? buy tons of materials and whatnot, and not spend on potions at that moment? shouldn't we allow such players space to do so? maybe? I am not saying, I am suggesting.

As for becoming a GA- again, I think it takes allot of ego to jump out of nowhere and set  that as a goal- being a GA is hard work, and the current GA's are working their butts off for sure, I didn't open the thread in order to rub anything in anyone's faces- I tried to rejoin the game, and got a general impression which I felt like sharing with the general public.

I get that it's not substantial enough for you, and respect that, but I never intended for this thread to become a drill-down analysis of specific guild advancement system, I offered a bit of general, constructive criticism which I thought others might agree with... I don't feel comfortable with turning it into public criticism of specific individuals/orgs... hope you can appreciate my sentiment in this regard.

Raefyr

Yarou- damn it, I missed your post earlier, it's awesome

OK OK, I GET where you're coming from... and yes, I admit to not having looked into the Cacophony...

I absolutely loved that fire potion bit, rock on.

Falaeron

Here's the thing, instead of pointing the finger at a specific guild you've actually pointed fingers at everyone by claiming that nothing has changed over the years.

True newbies are unlikely to want to dive straight into a craft and I would say it is actually beneficial to them that there is a very small hurdle in the form of guild tasks. Alt newbies who want to focus on a craft should be experienced enough to fly through the first few ranks anyway. Again, if someone really wanted to advance in the guild without doing the specific tasks written into the help files then they should talk to their leaders. The leaders might say no because it'll be too much work for them or whatever reason but there is always a chance that they might allow it. However you cannot expect these things to be explicitly added to the list of things creditable towards advancement because the point is that it should be open-ended.

While there are definitely many leaders who are doing a fantastic job there are some who are really only in the role because nobody wanted or wants to do it. "It's somebody else's problem." I think that more people should be contesting for positions if they really believe they can do a better job than the incumbent. For all you know the incumbent doesn't even want the position.

Shaddus

I can understand and respect your wishes not to shame a guild, but it's a bit hard to have a discussion on what you feel is in need of fixing if you can't actually explain in detail what's wrong.


Something I'll touch on is your paragraph about simply wanting to do a trade and nothing else. I'd quote said paragraph, but these forums don't work very well on my phone.


First off, it's perfectly acceptable to drop all your lessons into a tradeskill or influencing. Not only that, but the admin have said before that players are not supposed to be punished for how they allocate their lessons; I myself have gotten in trouble a long while back for chewing someone out for sinking all their lessons into Stealth without learning anything else, just to try things out. If you want to just influence, or just be a forger, or just tattoo people, that's cool. Rock it, build some rp around it, and do what you can with what you have.


But when it comes down to it, these sorts of people generally aren't interested in guild advancement. Not only that, but I'm not interested in advancing them. If you want to spend your time influencing, so much that you can't learn enough Elementalism as an Aquamancer to be "linked" to the Elemental Plane of Water, why should I see you as fit to gain rank as an Aquamancer? If you're an ur'Guard that wants to only forge and nothing else, maybe RP as a member of some logistics team to supply the guild with weapons of destruction, I'm down with that. However, if you can't do basic curing, summarize how the Taint came to be, or wear platemail, why do you deserve to rise in the ur'Guard? If you're a Wiccan that wants to dabble in alchemy, maybe run a shop, rp being a bit crazy from the fumes of your alembic, run with it. But if you can't summon fae or influence them for Mother Moon, why do you think you deserve to gain rank as a Moondancer?


Do what you want. Be who you want. Spend your lessons how you see fit. But when it comes down to it, you literally have no real need to advance in the guild unless you can do certain things and fulfill certain duties as are required by your guild. Being asked to buy some clothes, have some herbs, learn to a certain skill; these aren't hard things to do, and most newbies won't have an issue with them. Donating gold to a guild isn't really important, but it could be construed either as RP (the guild supports you, but our connection to our plane is pricy. Help chip in to show your support), or even just a way to show you know how to manipulate money and use a bank.

Raefyr

Falmiis - I don't believe that sharing a general impression constitutes an all out accusation... that's -really- not what I was after. I wanted people to think, you know? and hear if others feel the same or not, etc...

Shaddus- the quoting thingy is clunky for me too. OK I dig your reasoning, I'll leave it at that, as I really did not wish to turn a macro-discussion into a micro, guild specific discussion.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and give me feedback, I am not taking it for granted.

Cheers. 

Yarou

Raefyr said:

Yarou- damn it, I missed your post earlier, it's awesome

OK OK, I GET where you're coming from... and yes, I admit to not having looked into the Cacophony...

I absolutely loved that fire potion bit, rock on.

;D I had entirely too much fun writing it, hahaa. Tbh I'm a bit of a clown, but when push comes to shove, I take my job as Guild Admin very seriously and I like addressing these kinds of concerns in a way that's both gentle and informative. Glad to know you liked it

To be fair, you wouldn't be shaming any guilds, but providing constructive criticism for us to build on. I love it. I crave it. Come to the Cacophony for a trial run and rip us a new one, pretty pls.

Raefyr

I'm afraid I am more likely to pick Aeromancers/Aquamancers/Pyromancers actually...

Trying to figure out how they are faring after the entire overhaul thing. Sorry man... you rock, honest!, I'm just not into the bardic archtype...

Yarou

Raefyr said:

I'm afraid I am more likely to pick Aeromancers/Aquamancers/Pyromancers actually...

Trying to figure out how they are faring after the entire overhaul thing. Sorry man... you rock, honest!, I'm just not into the bardic archtype...

Nah, it's cool. The Caco life ain't for everyone, I understand.

Raefyr

Our loss.

Yarou

if you ever change your mind, though .. i extend to you this very rare, very exclusive and much sought after ticket of approval ..

Hallen

Yarou said:

Raefyr said:

I'm afraid I am more likely to pick Aeromancers/Aquamancers/Pyromancers actually...

Trying to figure out how they are faring after the entire overhaul thing. Sorry man... you rock, honest!, I'm just not into the bardic archtype...

Nah, it's cool. The Caco life ain't for everyone, I understand.

@Yarou didn't choose the Caco life. The Caco life chose her.

Versalean

Yarou said:

if you ever change your mind, though .. i extend to you this very rare, very exclusive and much sought after ticket of approval ..

Do want.

CyndarinAscends

Raefyr said:

I'm afraid I am more likely to pick Aeromancers/Aquamancers/Pyromancers actually...

Trying to figure out how they are faring after the entire overhaul thing. Sorry man... you rock, honest!, I'm just not into the bardic archtype...

Have you heard out the Pyro Lord and Savior, Fire Jesus? We welcome you warmly into our fiery bosom. 

I didn't go through this entire thread because it started becoming back and forth mini novels, but I hate standardized tasks. I think it turns a game into homework, especially "write this here," business. As a guild leader, I'm not here to police how you play the game. If you don't want to get all the curatives, I don't care. It's tremendously boring for both sides. I hate administering guild interviews, and (sorry not sorry) breeze through them. You look like you have a clue, and there is no mention of ample cow breasts in your description: here's GR2. 

I understand their value as a tutorial aid and as a direction for true newbies. That being said, I hate them as the only method of progression. If you want to grind to 80 and then you kill a Lady on Ether Seren, sure, I'll give you a guild rank. Because I don't really care that you didn't write about how you plan to counter a moondancer or regurgitate basic fire themed RP. Did you have fun? GREAT, let's keep having fun. Here's your next rank. 

Raefyr

^ You kind of hit the nail right there.

So the problem is not the game, bur rather me not realizing I am supposed to be a care-free Gaudi? hmmm

Lavinya

I'm all for flexibility and options in advancement. The cacophony advancement is one of the best I've seen, which I can't take credit for (save that I simplified the novice advancement a ton because it was more involved than the rest). I tried to do similar with the Morgfyre DisOrder advancement - there are a few things that are required (doing the simple quests in the godrealm and knowing the basic tenets) and I have suggestions for tasks, but every level has the option of this:

-- Complete a task of your own choosing to highlight your devotion and

   knowledge. Be sure to seek the approval of the Chosen first.

Basically if they like to write, awesome write me a thing. Like to make speeches? Go for it. Want to kill enemies? Perfect. Have some other creative idea? Most definitely. As it is, I only progressed to GR3 in the shadowdancers because I was given favours for other things. I really don't have the time for writing (and they have quite a bit, including the 'read this book and write about it' Ugh, no.) and I've done so much advancement in my time that I really have no interest in doing boring pointless tasks anymore. If I get the time to write and such, I'd rather do things I'm inspired to do.

I encourage all guilds to find a way to still teach your basic lore and encourage getting basic equipment for survival (honestly getting cures and enchants is simple and only benefits the novice) while being flexible and supportive of ALL play styles.