New Round of Changes

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Comments

  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    Tremula said:
    Will pyrotoxin become the new calcise/dendro in that burns will be taking ice to heal? 
    No. Wounds being cured will also cure burns.

    I'm still working out the implementation details, but the way I'm seeing burns/ice/wounds/ablaze work is this:

    APPLY ICE TO <bodypart> will function as it does now, with the addition that curing wounds will also cure some burns (at a reduced amount, similar to timewarp/tempinsanity and afflictions).
    APPLY ICE TO BODY will cure both burns and ablaze, prioritizing ablaze.
    APPLY ICE TO BURNS or APPLY ICE TO BODY BURNS or something similar will work the same as just applying to body, but switch the priority to burns over ablaze.

    The whole burns/wounds thing ended up being a bit awkward, but I feel like this solution addresses issues with the previous approaches we've been looking at in a fairly elegant manner. Wounds and burns won't be able to stack super-strongly, you can cure burns directly if you choose, and ablaze won't be able to essentially perma-block burns curing (which is an issue with the current arena version of the burns curing setup).
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  • LeolaminsLeolamins Member Posts: 351 Fabled
    Rivius said:
    Well every report had a specific plan and purpose to it. Things aren't going to be perfect immediately and we'll need to test and adjust. If you have issues or suggestions, you're free to make them. We can continue to recommend changes through envoys. The fact that this report happened in the first place shows there's people listening.
    Bring back RNG for warriors, it was good I liked it

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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    I like the idea of making BURNS a final parameter like the way WOUNDS currently is. It keeps the syntaxes more consistent. And then APPLY ICE TO BODY without the burns parameter can always target ablaze first just fine. It's a little awkward but at least that keeps things more consistent.

    I agree with Malarious that the dust balance is getting saturated. Dust-heavy classes might be really horrible to fight over time. I remember Sylvanus mentioning concern at one point about how much of a buff Cacophony might have received.

    I'll have to fight some mental-aff heavy classes to know for sure, but I want to see how the new focus mechanics hold up with the loss of focus mind. Mental afflictions tend to have the most hidden sources in the game.
    Post edited by Rivius on
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    I'm actually pretty happy with the ablaze/burns priority, as a pyromancer has mechanics to take advantage of ablaze so it'll be nice to see some reactive offense choices there. I'm still looking for some ideas on how to rework pyschic fist (just changing it to one channel really sets TK back to old world TK that just spammed vessels, and this time they'd be without an effective throatlock). 

    They're all inevitably going to get saturated. Ultimately I think it's a good direction, affliction stacking is more interesting than previous mechanics. It has the potential to make curing more strategic (with focus), running more difficult, and affliction strategies outside of aeon more viable. 

    What may have to happen is a detailed discussion and brain storming for each class as we progress like what went on with Pyros. It is  a multi faceted change to burns that 
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    Well, technically, ablaze wasn't a real consideration on the salve balance previously, whereas now it shares the same balance with burns.

    While it's true we lost some of the salve affs that pyros used to give out, we have to remember that ice is twice the balance time that old salve balance was. With the rate that burns tends to build passively at the moment, it's very likely we might have no choice but to keep ablaze on us sometimes. 

    Ablaze is a fairly significant affliction because firstly it's a requirement for TWIRL STAFF and pyre. TWIRL STAFF is definitely important to consider since it's essentially a stronger version of fireball (if I'm not mistaken) and pyre is very heavy damage as well. Ablaze also gives a small amount of burns over time.

    Burns also seem to increase fire damage to some degree, but the exact amounts are not exactly easy to determine. I did some testing on myself with ablaze + wonderwand and came up with these rough possible numbers:

    1st degree burns -> 3% increase
    2nd degree burns -> 7% increase
    3rd degree burns -> 10% increase
    4th degree burns -> 15% increase

    I'm not sure if burns have any addition effects. It'll be very helpful if mechanics surrounding them were elucidated.

    Either way, it's definitely something to monitor. I sure hope something was done with burns since the last round of testing we did on it. It really didn't need any buffs from its pre-overhaul state.


    In regards to shivering and frozen being thrown onto the dust balance, I'm obviously very concerned about that. These afflictions aren't at all innocuous on their own, and Preserve is going to get a whole lot easier to use.

    Plague affliction spam might also become somewhat concerning.

  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    Sure, but a lot of things changed and are no longer a consideration. The demesne doesn't stack salve cures as heavily as it previously did, and calcise is no longer a concern. Ultimately, Pyros lost some and gained some. There's some tweaking to be done (possibly in the nerf department), but I feel like they are relatively close to the status quo as is. 

    Burns add -1/13 resistance malus per level. It will show up on BODYSCAN.

    TWIRL STAFF is basically roomwide staff (or slightly more than staff depending on current health) for ablaze enemies. Since burn curing outpaces passive burn buildup, this should ultimately be a non-issue. Ablaze should only stick when you are being pressured, so the room effect should not come into play anymore than it was before.

    Pyre is 25% of current health. This is the one instance where a pyro can punish you for not curing ablaze. 

    The test we did was me just hitting you with TK in a demesne. A pyro TK only has psychic fist to hinder with while they are building burns, it's the only realistic way to build burns. So in a void where the target doesn't do anything, sure it's going to seem overpowered. Factor in love potion, a thing you can't counter while off psionic balance (which maxes out at 6 seconds), and active hindering....well we don't know yet. 

    Ultimately skills like this have to work when the target is pinned down/focused and not work when they are not targeted. A simple concept, but difficult to actually find where that line is when you consider the multitude of variables. 
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    Ah, I didn't know it was in the buffs system (that makes me feel incredibly stupid). Thanks for that. Looks like it also affects balance and eq a little bit.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,971 Transcendent
    Haven't burns always affected EQ and balance?  I know that they did balance, at least...
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  • DysolisDysolis Member Posts: 88 Apprentice
    doesn't anorexia make it a lock with tk and pyro meld? can't smoke, eat or apply.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    You can still drink slush to cure off anorexia 'cause there is no damaged throat in Pyro meld tic. 2 blocking afflictions on a stun is pretty damn nice for soft locking though. Pyromeld is an aeoner's dream.
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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    Ieptix did say he'd make throatlock do damagedthroat if the envoys wanted.....

    and beast spit chansu for anorexia....

    Everiine said:
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Can we not give mages hardlocks though? 
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    Why not? It's okay to force people into inescapable melds with afflictions where the only cure is to leave the meld. That's ok, but hardlocks are not? Seems a bit contradictary.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    Hardlocks aren't really a thing anymore since you can focus off any affliction for free. 

    Not that I'm saying it's a good idea, but redefining words to get knee jerk reactions about Pyromancers is not cute. Let's keep the conversation grounded in reality.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    Focusing off an affliction still requires you to use that cure, doesn't it? You'd have to green out.  Better realitycheck that before you talk about hyperbole and grounding. 

    EDIT: For clarity, you'd have a greenlock, but that's a mighty fine hair. I think you'll find that softlocks aren't as much of a thing anymore because of focus. Don't redefine words yadda yadda. 
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    Aye, hardlocks still exist. All the new focus mechanics do is make it so that consuming a cure won't cure an undesired affliction. So it lets you prioritize -say- asthma, if you're bogged down on wafer afflictions. Otherwise, curing mechanics are roughly the same.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    Sorry, I'm wrong here.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    And focus works entirely differently than old focus. You can check the actual facts now?  Or read my posts, where I just indicated those facts. 

    If you have asthma, slickness, damaged throat, anorexia, and a cleanse stopper you are greenlocked now. Focus does not cure anything that a regular use of a cure won't cure and is blocked by all of the things regular uses are. It just lets you specify what aff to cure when you're already using that cure. 
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    I thought beast focus cured the aff. My bad then. 
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    I thought beast focus cured the aff. My bad then. 

    Yep.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    Hard lock: a combination of afflictions that require green/gedulah (3 power) to escape because traditional cures and FOCUS would not remove the lock.

    This no longer exists. You do not have to green/gedulah out of anything because focus now covers all afflictions. For free.

    You can go shave your back now.
    I think damagedthroat + anorexia + slickness + asthma + (paralysis [for x seconds] OR broken legs + sprawl) is a greenlock nowadays. Takes more afflictions to achieve than before, but it's theoretically possible.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited May 2016
    Best case senario you could psychicfist a leg for the sprawl/break while throatlocking and landing anorexia on tic. That's if all the stars in align in skull though.

    Buuuuuuut that's not why we're here!

    EDIT: I have no idea how astro works please don't hate on my bad analogy :(
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  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    Yeah you're right, I got my wires crossed about beast focus and the Life Domoth beast power. Sorry!
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    Some classes can still break out of that lock without resorting to green. We should envoy in an additional aff that blocks those skills, so that they're not lockproof but still have an advantage, as you need to hit an additional affliction. 


    EDIT: No time soon though, not worth it. 
  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso
    Blademasters on paper have all the mechanics to soft lock and hard(green)lock, if all the stars align and shrugging doesn't occur. I think you will see more soft locks than hardlocks, but the possibility is available to them.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited May 2016
    So my personal initial thoughts post-changes are:

    - Maybe ice being 4 instead of 5 might be a better starting point to assess from. Wounds are important and are how we can control warrior balance. Originally we proposed 90% of wounds, but right now that's not really mathematically possible if we're keeping 5 as the baseline for one-hander wounds, so 4 is the best middle ground option for ice. If that's too much we might have to play with the numbers some more, but I suspect it might be alright.


    -  Carve is still very underwhelming. I discussed it at length with Demartel, and we're not entirely sure what to do with it right now at critical wounds the bleed it adds is around 500. It takes about 3 seconds base balance. At critical wounds, you really only get one shot 1v1, which is really not amazing for 500 bleed. At 8/8 balance buff, you might be able to sneak in two carves, but that's a lot to ask of all warriors, and not a good balancing point. 

    I think sticking with the idea that you only get one carve shot per impale is okay, as long as carve gets a considerable burst bleed at crit. Like 1500. Nothings really stopping people from clotting that, which will pressure their mana, but if they don't, it at least gets them into exsang range.


    - Adding internalbleeding to the initial bleeding req actually made things harder. The report really asked for the direction to be chosen between just the aff or just the bleeding. 
    The bleeding is a hard thing to balance around. Any amount of mana drain/bleeding off the cuff that will tank 8-10k mana reserves and build enough bleeding for the req basically needs to be extremely powerful and so would need to be balanced by requiring a lot of wounds. I don't really want to add a mana drain to PB for that reason, unless it's a sharp drain at a high wound threshold.

    Keep in mind also, psymets with bloodboil will be almost immune to PB if they want to be. In general, PB suffers from not really having much spread in its insta at all. Not seeing a good reason why someone can't parry gut 100 and be immune to PB. I think they need a second insta, and exsang needs to either get the bleeding switched out for just an aff, or just stick to bleeding alone and give a considerable burst bleed somewhere.


    - I'm wondering about how people feel about 2-handers right now. Is the extra wounds okay, or do we need to fall back on the earlier option of giving them a way to afflict and wound at the same time? Playing as a cavalier, I'm literally not ever bothering with my afflictions unless it's in a group or I've gotten critical wounds for mutilates, or it's impalegut for skewer. Otherwise, 1v1, it only seems productive to stick to wounds for the majority of the fight. Maybe this is something we can assess if still needed if we reduce ice to 4?


    - Joust does 1 wound....it's a useless ability as is. It really should do like...20. It would still be useless but at least less so.


    Needs more testing and feedbacks from peeps though and more idea tossing.
  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso
    Rivius said:

    So my personal initial thoughts post-changes are:-  Carve is still very underwhelming. I discussed it at length with Demartel, and we're not entirely sure what to do with it right now at critical wounds the bleed it adds is around 500. It takes about 3 seconds base balance. At critical wounds, you really only get one shot 1v1, which is really not amazing for 500 bleed. At 8/8 balance buff, you might be able to sneak in two carves, but that's a lot to ask of all warriors, and not a good balancing point. 

    I think sticking with the idea that you only get one carve shot per impale is okay, as long as carve gets a considerable burst bleed at crit. Like 1500. Nothings really stopping people from clotting that, which will pressure their mana, but if they don't, it at least gets them into exsang range.

    In testing as a Stag user with swiftstripes and red lollipop for a total 5:5 balance, Rivius writhed half a second before a second Carve was possible. The amount of bleeding gained by all that work was negligible compared to just striking and gaining the wounds + bleeding. I agree with the burst mechanic for bleeding from Carve. Again, as an example I pushed my bleeding to 2k and then clotted it off, with a pool of 10300 mana it took me to 74% of my mana and I sipped back up to 90%. This seems like a reasonable burst, given most warriors will have to get gut back to critical, due to ice applying, before being able to carve again. Very few will be hitting a high enough speed buff to pull off a double carve.

    I am also curious about putting Behead instakill in PB, giving PB two avenues for an Instakill 1vs1.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Bleeding used to be strong (and balanced) for both warriors and to a lesser extent the monks that rely on it because of its ability to hinder wound application by eating health AND mana sips. That is no longer the case, and the old numbers for bleeding may not be good anymore. I've been thinking of proposing some bleed mechanics changes to supplement the change, but because of its sudden snowball potential, I've been holding off it. It's also important to think carefully about how we want bleed strategies to work.

    As a summary, though, the biggest change to take note of is that bleed no longer creates a feedback into stacking itself over time. The lack of wound application hinder from bleeds forcing health/mana sips means warriors don't get more wound pressure/aff pressure, enabling more consistent application of bleed for the snowball, while monks no longer get increasing damage the more bleed they get, to snowball their damage potential. We can try to reinstate that snowball effect, or we can also possibly think about trying to change the way bleeds work to snowball in a different way.

    One possible idea I have had is to make bleed interact with mana in some way (like boosting bleed's effectiveness if the target's mana is below a certain threshold), but that's a very direct way of affecting bleed, and has the potential to go too far if the numbers aren't right. Alternatively, could increase the tick frequency of bleeds, but reduce the health damage of the ticks (100 bleed will now tick twice as fast, for 50 damage per tic, for example) to keep the status quo of the numbers, but actually generate damage (instead of having people just mass clot everything away and not getting any health damage in at all), or alternatively increase the mana cost for clotting... or change clotting mechanics in some way. However, all these ideas don't actually prevent people from clotting away the bleed, which might not solve the problem.

  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso
    @Rivius and I discussed altering balance times of carve and impale writhe at various thresholds and both of those seemed likely to either not solve the issue or to make impale writhes far to overpowered. The best we could come up with is leave the 1 shot chance of Carve as is, but increase the bleeding to 1500 - 2000 range as posted for a burst drain on Mana pools to try and work their mana lower.

    Bleeding is a horrible mechanic to balance right now with the vital pools as high as they are and unless PB has a way to hit mana pools hard, such as the high bleed burst suggested, PB will never accomplish its endgame, between parry gut 100 and clotting you are basically immune to PB. All of the wounds for PB are based around increasing bleeding, but none of them really work the mana enough to  pressure it.

    Alternative suggestions are of course welcome.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Flat vitals increase definitely eroded bleed's effect, since bleed/clot is an entirely static numbers game. That alone might well be a good enough justification to increase the base clot mana cost. This will, of course, have to apply to bruising, especially since that works similarly and the problem of higher vitals affect both equally. I think pushing clot cost from the current 60 mana to 65, or even 70, should be good enough for now, pending further observations.

    That's still separate from the problem of bleeds not snowballing into itself like in the past. That is a more difficult problem to resolve.

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