What can I do against this

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,971 Transcendent
    Look, aeon received buffs due to the overhaul, as explained above-- including, as you freely admit, much more widespread use of passive aeon ticks.  Why you feel it is okay for an already strong skill to be made stronger / more prevalent and it's up to everyone else to "deal with it" is beyond me.
    image
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,139 Transcendent
    There could always be made a group effort to remove aeon from the game completely. Envoy your skills to not depend or need aeon, move away to new mechanics, then discard aeon completely after the last org has changed.
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  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited June 2016
    Edit: W/e
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    What's funny about this conversation is that many of the same arguments used to defend aeon and aeonfield here etc, were the same arguments used to defend choke (help your ally, attack the choker etc) and those arguments were fundamentally ignored and look what happened. Arguably similiar mechanics minus the curing part, and Envoys who spearheaded chokes removal and ignored these arguments are now 'liking' when they are used to defend aeon. Interesting thing that.

    To be fair, I like aeon, I think it's a good mechanic, but it most certainly is a 90% watch system cure, 10% manual thing. I legitimately don't think a 3 sec aeon immunity will hurt things too much. It will encourage better strategy and timing while removing the spammability. I really think it will have zero impact on 1v1 fighting. 

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,139 Transcendent

    Synkarin said:
    What's funny about this conversation is that many of the same arguments used to defend aeon and aeonfield here etc, were the same arguments used to defend choke (help your ally, attack the choker etc) and those arguments were fundamentally ignored and look what happened. Arguably similiar mechanics minus the curing part, and Envoys who spearheaded chokes removal and ignored these arguments are now 'liking' when they are used to defend aeon. Interesting thing that.

    To be fair, I like aeon, I think it's a good mechanic, but it most certainly is a 90% watch system cure, 10% manual thing. I legitimately don't think a 3 sec aeon immunity will hurt things too much. It will encourage better strategy and timing while removing the spammability. I really think it will have zero impact on 1v1 fighting. 
    You are changing a skill that's a big part of many strategies of aeon users out there. There -will- be impact. I'm not saying pro/contra this change, am not an envoy and have no particular oppinion on it, just saying 'zero impact' is mostly likely not going to be true.
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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    Ok, you're right, it will impact you if your strategy is to do nothing but spam aeon over and over again. But turns out if you're doing nothing but spamming aeon over and over again, you aren't getting anywhere anyway, so an immunity period for 3 seconds just means you still aren't getting anywhere anyway. Which actually means the impact with aeon immunity is nothing.  This is what I mean by zero impact. It means that the initial scenario and the resulting scenario will be the same. 

    Zero impact on 1v1 is absolutely true. I already pointed out Ciaran's example and how immunity would have zero impact on him there. The balance time on aeon skills (whether you are stripping speed to wait for passive tic or dealing aeon itself) means that the 3 sec immunity will be over close to when regain balance from casting aeon to begin with. If you're going to insist that reapplying upon curing is going to be affected, see what I said earlier. If I cured aeon 1v1, it means I'm not locked in aeon, and when you re-apply, I can just smoke steam again and be cured before you regain balance back from re-applying. Meaning with immunity or without immunity, I'm in the exact same spot I was before. 

    Yes, it will effect groups. A lot. But as I noted, it's going to reward smarter play and hurt spamming, which is a good thing in my opinion.


    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    I'd like to reiterate that the proposed solution is something that has already been stress tested and, I think, universally agreed upon as successful by basically everyone. So I don't understand the uproar. 

    Immunity was a mechanic implemented when you could be perpetually stun chained by knights or blacked out for upwards of a minute by a dreamweaver. We know this solution works. 

    This is why the whole "partisan" nonsense sets me off. This isn't partisan. This isn't a campaign to delete aeon or make it terrible, aeon isn't even org specific. This is taking what we know to already work and apply it to current problems. It's literally the smartest and most efficient way to address balance concerns. 

    Why are people okay with blackout immunity but not a similar mechanic for aeon? It's nonsensical. Yes, I've been playing a long time, and no aeon is not what it was 8 or 9 years ago. Back then it was just Celestines and Nihilists, moondancers, and the rare tarot bard. You didn't spam it endlessly because lockdown mechanics were pretty limited outside of hexes. Aeon wasn't a core mechanic that people just universally spammed, but a specific strategy you could utilize in certain scenarios. 

    As it rises in accessibility with things like Researchers and lower risk passive aeon, bards with aeon that bypasses quicksilver and stun/blackout, etc. and our ability to keep up with afflictions has (by design) been reduced, the situation has changed. As a result, the approach to the affliction has to change. 

  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,139 Transcendent
    I was not commenting by any means on any pro/contra of the actual issue, I have not enough data to vote either way. My own strategies will mostly likely not be affected by an immunity. my point is that a change will always have impact. If it will be actually be really noticable... that each and every person will have to see for themselves, I can not possibly tell that.
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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    If you're just going to argue semantics and say that 'well it's change, so it will impact everything' rather than backing it with examples and facts, then there really is no point for you to comment at all. I've pointed out why it will have zero impact on 1v1. You've responded with 'well it's a change.' You are right, it is a change, a change that has zero impact on 1v1 fighting. 



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • TremulaTremula Banished Quasiroyal Member Posts: 2,645 Transcendent
    What I've got to wonder is if Aeonfield (one of our nicest toys to play with) currently ticks often enough that a tic will be ignored entirely because of immunity, or if in group combat the staggered cures will still make it effective. I suppose it's one of those things we'll have to check if it becomes a problem and work around.
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

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  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,139 Transcendent
    Think I did enough to derail this thread even further, none of this is going to help Dylara any to fix her problem with aeon curing :\

    @Synkarin I disagree, but I don't think I get my point expressed correctly ( could be language thing, I dunno ), or maybe I get it it through and you just disagree, which is alright. I don't feel it's helping any in either case, so let's carry on.
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  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    Tremula said:
    What I've got to wonder is if Aeonfield (one of our nicest toys to play with) currently ticks often enough that a tic will be ignored entirely because of immunity, or if in group combat the staggered cures will still make it effective. I suppose it's one of those things we'll have to check if it becomes a problem and work around.
    In my experience, aeonfield's greatest contribution is that it facilitates aeon spam, not that it actually applies aeon that sticks. For example: quicksilver is stripped, you sip quicksilver, you get aeon'd, quicksilver defense comes back up, aeon field strip quicksilver, you cure aeon, aeon is immediately applied again. If they stick aeon for any decent amount of time, aeonfield eliminates your only defense against reapplying aeon as soon as you cure out.

    I assume it also refreshes the aeon timer, though someone would have to confirm that. 

    Of course, warriors and monks and aeon'd can already strip quicksilver, but it's just one more tool in the toolbox.

    So if it's hitting immunity, it not really changing how aeonfield facilitates aeon locks. 

    Aeonfield is also mind blowing bad design, and now it was buffed to be low risk. All the partisan finger pointers don't seem to care about the overhaul aeonfield buff though. 8-|
  • DylaraDylara Member Posts: 1,287 Transcendent
    Aeldra said:
    Think I did enough to derail this thread even further, none of this is going to help Dylara any to fix her problem with aeon curing :\

    @Synkarin I disagree, but I don't think I get my point expressed correctly ( could be language thing, I dunno ), or maybe I get it it through and you just disagree, which is alright. I don't feel it's helping any in either case, so let's carry on.
    Yeah, you derailers! :p

    I do think that the conversation about aeon does need to happen, just like it needed to happen when we had choke. Just because choke is gone, doesn't mean that aeon doesn't still need work, the conversation will just keep going until a solution is met. 

    I did get some help regarding how to optimize my curing in aeon, and made some arti purchases based on it. 

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • TwytchTwytch Member Posts: 485 Expert
    Tremula said:
    What I've got to wonder is if Aeonfield (one of our nicest toys to play with) currently ticks often enough that a tic will be ignored entirely because of immunity, or if in group combat the staggered cures will still make it effective. I suppose it's one of those things we'll have to check if it becomes a problem and work around.
    In my experience, aeonfield's greatest contribution is that it facilitates aeon spam, not that it actually applies aeon that sticks. For example: quicksilver is stripped, you sip quicksilver, you get aeon'd, quicksilver defense comes back up, aeon field strip quicksilver, you cure aeon, aeon is immediately applied again. If they stick aeon for any decent amount of time, aeonfield eliminates your only defense against reapplying aeon as soon as you cure out.

    I assume it also refreshes the aeon timer, though someone would have to confirm that. 

    Of course, warriors and monks and aeon'd can already strip quicksilver, but it's just one more tool in the toolbox.

    So if it's hitting immunity, it not really changing how aeonfield facilitates aeon locks. 

    Aeonfield is also mind blowing bad design, and now it was buffed to be low risk. All the partisan finger pointers don't seem to care about the overhaul aeonfield buff though. 8-|
    That's actually something I've been toying around with as a Researcher. The problem with Aeon as it pertains to Researcher is that, outside Aeon/Timewarp, there aren't a lot of spiritual affs that Researcher can hide Timewarp (the affliction that actually contributes to their kill condition). This is unlike Illuminati, which actually dishes out a decent amount of mental afflictions (especially post-overhaul, now that almost most mental affs are on the singular cure of lucidityslush). But, in addition to that, Aeon is such a powerful affliction that it blocks almost all forms of action: offense, defense, evasion. It sort of makes Researcher a monster with, and a wet paper bag without. Report 1489 is delicate in the sense that it has a high probability of solidly making Researcher one of the two (monster vs wet paper bag).

    I've heard reports that it's highly possible to cure out of massive timewarp (the level needed for Timequake) even with Aeon (just focus off timewarp -- but this was pre-overhaul when Timewarp had a different cure than Aeon), but I want to do the math myself. Gonna have to wait till weekend, though. 

    PS Illuminate is pretty viable, now, though, particularly as a Hexen. Severely tempted to try it out!
    See you in Sapience.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    I don't see why people think a 3 sec immunity will have a huge effect on researchers, or MD's or -anyone-. It certainly won't make any of those classes monsters and it certainly won't make any of those classes wet paper bags (lol at the thought of researchers being wet paper bags though). 



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    I mean, I don't really understand how this report changes anything surrounding timewarp or how you cure out of aeon. It literally only changes the ability to repeatedly apply aeon successfully to lock down your target. 

    If you can lock with aeon before this report, you would be able to after this report. What you won't be able to do is completely shut down a target that is curing out of your aeon spam just by reapplying it. 

    Personally, I would prefer to go a few steps further and kick aeon in the nuts like we did KD spam. But incremental changes and all.

    I dunno about the wet paper bag thing.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited June 2016
    What it means is that abilities like paradox and aeonfield will throw people off trying to stick soft aeonlocks. If someone isn't on their toes or paradox throws out a random aeon then the person has immunity and you're reset for 3-4 seconds and you lose your kill method/soft lock because of an RNG tic on paradox or because someone else just decides to just waltz in and throw down an aeon. Timing to aeonfield is fine -- apart from the fact that your balances will never let you always be doing something while you're working up to your soft lock. I think it's frustrating because Moonies and Researchers don't opt into aeon and you claimed yourself that Hallifax is aeoncentric while at the same time saying that you don't think it will influence Hallifax synergy. Researchers aren't exactly scary :|

    Edit: The aeonfield one is fine, I guess, but paradox randomly aeoning with an immunity window would be pretty trash when you're trying to lock someone.
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
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    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    How often are you using paradox 1v1?

    In groups 'unenemy <target>' - no random aeon's to worry about.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    It applies in groups too. Randomly aeoning someone, giving them a 3s window because it's RNG and no one can make a lock before everyone gets balance back to synergise. I always use paradox.
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    So envoy paradox to not aeon. Or be more selective as to when you want to use Paradox. 

    I never said it won't influence Hallifax synergy. It will, in that you all won't be able to just mindless smash your aeon buttons just to keep people perpetually locked in it no matter how good their curing is. 

    I don't understand the "researchers aren't exactly scary" business. One of the best guilds in the game, hands down.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    Yarith said:
    It applies in groups too. Randomly aeoning someone, giving them a 3s window because it's RNG and no one can make a lock before everyone gets balance back to synergise. I always use paradox.

    I editted before I saw this 'unenemy ' will prevent your target from being randomly aeoned during group fights.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited June 2016
    So on the odd chance that paradox-aeon screws up everything I want to ensure that they don't get hit by aeonfield.

    I suppose aeon will just leave paradox. 

    I don't see how researchers are scary at all. I would have figured Celestines or Moonies to be way, way worse to fight.
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    Celestines can be worse because Celestines have always been one of the best classes in the game as far back as like 2006 and they've only been buffed since then. Though Celestines being rough has nothing to do with Researchers being a fantastic class.

    Moondancers are predictable. They either go hexes and sleeplock or they go healing and spam lame mode aurawarp/succumb and force you to leave the room. Sleeplock is not scary in groups, healing is not scary solo. 
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    Aeonfield can only be put up by one person right? I'm also assuming that whoever is aeonfielding isn't using paradox because of power costs (5p for aeonfield, 10p for paradox). 

    So aeonfield can still be used while someone else is using paradox.

    I don't really see that using aeonfield + paradox + timequake is feasible in 1v1 due to again powercosts. (and I doubt paradox or aeonfield last long enough to both be in effect by the time you are ready to timequake). 

    This is what I mean by smarter play vs randomly spamming aeon.





    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited June 2016
    Paradox is 5p and I frequently use it as well as aeonfield.
    Timequake isn't feasible anyway. If you're building rubies in groups you're wasting your balances and being greedy.

    I mean, I guess just shieldstunning and entanglespamming is good too. 

    Paradox and aeonfield last long enough 1v1 to pull off timequake with trans discipline. It's totally a thing.
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    Wiki says 10p and a skill that does echoes, oracle, displacement, timewarp and aeon to random enemies in the room seems really strong for only 5p.

    And you complain about homunculus giving greywhispers.


    I can see timequake being very feasible in groups, especially smaller groups.


    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    8-|

    I really don't know what to tell you if you believe a 3 second aeon immunity means the best skills you have are web and shieldstun. 
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited June 2016
    It's 4-5* tics over around 1.5 minutes and sometimes they're all timewarp or they displace the only person in the room long enough that the group comes and wipes you out before you get a pick. 

    Edit: Nah. I was just answering the questions. Aeonics has 3 ways to give aeon and two of them will collide with an immunity is all I was saying.
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    I don't get it. So use it smarter? If you don't want the target displaced, don't use skills that may displace the target. I feel like this is a "I can't use a set it and forget passive all the time" complaint. If a glamours bard is with a group and they find an isolated target, the bard doesn't put them in a maze. 

    If you have a really powerful trans skill that you won't use because generic aeon is better just by adding a 3 second immunity, I think that really speaks volumes about the need to address aeon.  
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited June 2016
    Except for the fact it wasn't a complaint at all.
    Edit: Except sometimes people get pulled in by rad and you already have paradox up or they get washed in by currents or everyone gets pushed out and someone uses gpent and you still have it up. I mean, if you are able to tell exactly how the fight is going to be in 52 seconds time, all the more power to you.

    I never said I wouldn't use it. I was just stating that having paradox with aeonfield could be counterproductive.
    I think you're twisting my words.

    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
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