I had the same experience with Newton as Svorai did. I think it's good to introduce newbies to the questing mechanics etc, but even more important to introduce them to the lore of the gameworld. Even if it were something as simple as it being two playable races battling rather than finks and gnomes, so you could get a little bit of a feel for them.
I dunno. To me, Soulless vs. Vernal is an obvious choice (even though some people occasionally claim to side with the Soulless, the vast majority is going to choose their own survival), while Taint vs. NoTaint is a more personal choice (after all, there's a whole city dedicated to the Taint; there's no comparative organisation dedicated to the Soulless).
I dunno. To me, Soulless vs. Vernal is an obvious choice (even though some people occasionally claim to side with the Soulless, the vast majority is going to choose their own survival), while Taint vs. NoTaint is a more personal choice (after all, there's a whole city dedicated to the Taint; there's no comparative organisation dedicated to the Soulless).
But that's just it; you're a newbie, you don't know. You work with both sides, and you start getting a sense for the Krokani culture versus the Aslaran. Then you see how they're being subverted / dominated / turned into nothing but puppets.
I guess I just prefer quests that don't have a "right" and "wrong" side. To me, which side of the quest you do should be based on your character's informed decision; two characters with all the relevant information should be able to choose different sides, based on their IG beliefs. To me, that just doesn't happen with Soulless vs. Vernal quests, since most people would never support their own destruction (which, to be frank, supporting the Soulless is ICly). With Taint vs. NoTaint, however, there's no clear "right" or "wrong" choice; what is right by Celest standard is wrong by Mag standard and vice versa. And Gaudi probably doesn't even care which side people choose. Those quests are, at least to me, the more interesting ones, as they help promote the inherent Taint vs. NoTaint conflict that should exist.
I certainly enjoy asking novices why they (as most Seren novices seem to) have decided the finks are bad, and then telling them about Mucklemarsh, and then going 'Are you sure they're the bad guys here?'
Engagement is the key to retaining people, as Talan has mentioned.
I'd love a giant, sweeping change to the newbie introduction and how collegiums work, but as that's not going to happen... alas. I've mentioned this stuff before in other threads:
Collegiums
My two cents is that newbies (true newbies, not alts) do not spend enough time in the collegium. I log in after four hours of a newbie signing up, and they're already out of the collegium and in the hands of their guild. Which is fine, of course, if the newbie is ready for that, but the true newbies of the game usually need a lot of time to get used to all the commands and concepts that we take for granted.
The collegium should be a place for people to feel greeted, welcomed, and supported -- not something they should feel they need to rush through so they can get to the next step.
As soon as they complete the six quests (which aren't that hard and can be completed before they learn their basic skills or have time to explore), they leave the collegium and that safe place that they can ask questions (more) freely with (less) fear of rebuke.
In my mind, the ideal solution would be this:
When newbies finish the six quests, they become eligible to graduate with honours. But that doesn't graduate them automatically -- it just gives them a message in GUILD STATUS or COLLEGE SHOW (whichever works, I forget) that they need to speak with xyz npc and arrange for their graduation.
Indeed, you don't have to graduate with honours, you can just graduate by speaking with xyz npc.
xyz npc mentions something over CGT "Newbie's graduation will be held in five minutes" which gives people time to gather at the npc. A short ceremony is held, people actually realise they've graduated and moved on, and tada! The collegium experience suddenly means something.
And it also means you can spend as much time in there as you need.
Newton
I personally didn't get much from Newton when I was a newbie. The npcs didn't really talk about much other than fink/gnome specific stuff, when I wanted to understand things about races, organisations, history.
I think it would be neat for newbies to be able to get some of this information earlier rather than later. MKO's newbie intro (with the area with the different races, etc), to me, felt very engaging, and what I'd love to see here.
We have a far more interesting history than MKO. Why not make a second newbie area be the Great Library and add in some new npcs that ask for help in the library while giving out tidbits of information?
I imagine that's not a small task to implement, though.
I'll run along now and take my broad, sweeping changes with me...
I like this Great Library idea. Could even make it to where NPCs there are only for influence, not combat, that way nobody can come kill the person that is giving away this information.
I wonder, how many people actually found and read the Gnome Tome when they were a newbie? I only did at the last minute, because someone told me it existed, and I felt like it added quite a bit to an area that felt like it was a shoe-in for newbies. If the finks in Newton are related to the finks on Mucklemarsh, it might be nice for some document to surface in the Newton area for them as well, to explain their journey for newbies who might discover it.
There's an events post that says the finks in Newton are descended from finks the gnomes evacuated from Mucklemarsh. Without asking them if they wanted to be evacuated.
I don't know how to code, so forgive me if this is something out of the scope of possibility but what if there were certain quests that were really helpful to various orgs that could ONLY be done by characters of a certain level? I wouldn't say there would be a need for them past say 40 or 50. Something like the power quests for orgs but something only those who were level 20-30 could complete or a comm quest for villages that could only be done by levels 10-20 might be fun for them.
These are rough ideas right now but it's something that would allow the newbies a chance to contribute in a way that ONLY they can to the org they're a part of.
This could extend to guilds even. A special guild bonus like 10% extra gold drops or xp per kill/influence when a newbie does a certain quest.
It could be abused, sure, but so can everything else.
I think sending newbies to newton immediately is actually... a really bad idea.
Just from memory you actually struggle there if you're just newbie punching, where as if they are directed to learn their newbie attacks first they're going to go in to a feeling of power due to things dying easily.
Looking over this thread, there are a few suggestions that, taken together, can help a lot in my opinion.
First is the idea of making a curriculum of lessons for newbies to learn. The curriculum would have to be 150 lessons or less (or however much Newbies start out with) and once initiated by the proper collegium teacher, you will over the course of a minute or so learn all the 150 lessons, as well as be treated to messages that explain exactly what it is that you're learning. The messages and the lessons learned can be set by the GA. Send the newbies here first, before trying to get them into Newton, so that they can learn their basic hunting attack.
Second, the graduation being initiated by a command that invites citizens to participate, rather than by time spent or quests completed, is a great idea. It'll make the graduation process far more memorable and interesting, and opens up opportunities for the novice to meet and befriend his/her fellow citymates. Perhaps have two different graduation ceremonies, depending on if he/she graduates with honours or not.
Third, give novices autoconglute everywhere, either by tying it to level (below 30) or grace of innocence. Making Immolation cheaper/free won't help as much because that places the additional pre-requisites that A, there's someone around to immolate him, B, that the body is even possible to reach. You can't get a corpse from Newton, for example. And getting into the correct gravedigger pit or roc nest can take a lot of time.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
If we can have signs on the roads to point to where the different cities or communes are, that would be great.
Also, for achievement, in case someone wants to take a non-violent path please have the option to influence instead of just kill finks and gnomes.
For the entry into the portals, can there be more things moving about instead of you just walking to the shop? For example things that greet you and such, or you can learn a little more about the lore of Newton?
Also, speedup, or slowdown. If you decide to speed up, can the attacks of the shadow remain constant? I tried it out, coupled with lag, and found myself within 3 health from the shadow.
I think sending newbies to newton immediately is actually... a really bad idea.
Just from memory you actually struggle there if you're just newbie punching, where as if they are directed to learn their newbie attacks first they're going to go in to a feeling of power due to things dying easily.
It's an unrealistic feeling of power though. You spend twenty or more levels one or, rarely, two-shotting everything. Barely taking a scratch. Then, you go to the nexus world and get owned by a carnivorous plant because, hey, I can one or two shot everything! (May or may not be a true story :-B) I think that increasing the difficulty of the higher levels of finks and gnomes would help ease a person into the idea one can actually get killed while hunting mobs.
I like the idea of there being quests that are only available for lower level poeple to do. Oh, and how about add a thing to squads that if everyone is below a certain level and within 5 levels of each other, they get some kind of bonus. Everytime I've seen a squad, it's been someone really high level just basically killing everything while a lower level just stands there. Which is nice, and all, but why not something to encourage a group of novices to work together to bring down opponents instead? Getting to know people who're new like you, so you can compare experiences and so on. And yeah, many of the novices might be alts, but that's ok, cause they can answer questions too.
I would say start newbies at adept in their primary skill (take away that many of lessons from the starting pool), that way pretty much no matter what guild they pick a newbie has the skills to actually start bashing Newton or whatever with just the instructions on how to fight - no 15-30 minute instructional if they honestly don't want it.
Make them train the other skills of course, so its still worthwhile for them to get an orientation and taught how to learn skills etc - but this way they have the option of jumping right in if they want to.
Other than that, a big part on newbie retention is on players making things fun for them.
Newbies should either go to their nexus or to the primary teacher in their city. Someone had mentioned having a brother who would explain things as well, this would be fine but could also consider having their teacher have a few extra lines of explanation about various things.
Furthermore, I think that player retention is and always will fall in the hands of those in the org they choose to play in.
When I first started playing, I died a lot, but I'm persistent. I had my brother who played as well and he helped out a lot. But without having a friend who plays, or having a lot of interaction, I would have never kept playing.
o Newbies (under level 30) now have a much shorter "pray for salvation" sequence. >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
I like! No idea how short it is now, but I'm guessing this will alleviate any problems of novices feeling the need to give up Innocence for the sake of lichseed or other resurrection methods.
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
My experiences as in Lusternia have an "I wish they had...." or "I wish this did/didn't..." list, particularly in relation to being a newer character.
Several years ago I made a character in Lusternia and had a lot of the problems everyone else has brought up. The game is really complicated (which is a TON of fun... forever down the road and over the mountains of doom after the uphill climb... when you can kind of figure out what you're doing) compared to other MUDs. Years ago the first character I ever made was largely ignored, questions didn't get answered, I had a hard time even finding the help files I would have needed to "get it" (the Aha!). So, I never played her again after 3 log-ins or so and she got deleted.
In this next go, and at least in Gaudiguch (I can't speak for the other organizations) people have been incredibly helpful, but that's not the game itself, that's the players in Gaudiguch (thanks guys!) I'm still lost a lot of the time, but I've figured out how to function at the very least, thanks to getting a hang of influencing and the city power quests, and being pointed (somewhat ambiguously) to where quests are (I love quests.)
So here's the problem I see as being the biggest turn-off to new players: You can almost never see anyone in your guild. You log in and see, "Currently, there is 1 member on this Plane and 5 on other Planes." and since you have no idea who those other people are, feel alone. The biggest problem with the planes and people not showing up on GWHO is that they know you don't know who they are, and if they just stay quiet and pretend they're not there, things go unanswered.
My biggest suggestion would be to code something in for guilds to see who is on another plane, and only guilds. It doesn't even have to say which plane. Example:
***************************[ THE ILLUMINATI GUILD ]****************************
The (*) would denote that they're there, but not say which plane or manse. At least that way people don't feel like they're alone. If nothing else I'm a firm believer that this should be the case for anyone who's got a position in the guild. I mean, half the point of taking a position is supposed to be helping the rest of the guild.
I like this idea, but I would prefer if it had a CONFIG option to it. Sometimes I duck into a manse to idle for a bit while I work on guild stuff, designing or combat or other stuff.
I know this means that a lot of people would just config it off and leave it there.
I started playing last Thursday. I really only have a couple comments so far though:
1) The number of prefixes for commands is annoying. You have chant for rituals, abjure for cosmic, evoke for highmagic, etc etc. Really only one command should be needed: cast. What all these prefixes has gotten me to do is make an alias for any spell that I even see myself wanting to use anytime soon so I don't have to remember the prefix.
2) I hear there's a lot of lore, but it doesn't seem to be very accessible. I have read through some of the history in the help files. I havn't checked out the libraries yet, I guess that's where most of the lore for the game is. But honestly when I am logged in I would rather be playing the game and not knee-deep in help files or library books. I guess part of the problem is I need to find a MUD client that has a window for chat and a window for everything else.
HOWEVER it is really cool that you guys actually have libraries with books in them. It's a great bit of atmosphere.
3) I can't remember exactly where, but I swear I have seen some differences between the way the game actually works and how the help files say the game works. Actually, one case is that dross power is listed in the help files as only being able to get your power to 15% and then cutting off immediately. But it didn't work that way when I went to fill my power. Most of the discrepancies haven't been huge issues, but it is nice to know that when you read a help file it is going to be accurate and I just don't feel that confident about the help files in this game. There is also a HUGE number of them and I really think the entire system could stand to be consolidated.
On a positive note the community has been absolutely wonderful answering my questions and helping me learn the game
4) There is no map of the Hallifax university, and I wish there was. I would also like a Hallifax city map because I really want to see a graphic to show me what that city actually looks like (I like Hallifax )
5) Having to find widgets every time I wanted to get to the later parts of Newton was really annoying. I actually renounced grace and took a stab at an area that was beyond me just so I didn't have to kill hordes of finks in order to get to the higher level areas of Newton. It didn't work out that well, lol.
6) I wish that the CGHELP command had been pointed out to me
earlier. That command really should be included in the tutorial if it isn't already (maybe I just missed it?). I spent a lot of time running around on the newbie quests trying to find things.
Maybe I will come up with more later. But I really like the MUD so far
3) I can't remember exactly where, but I swear I have seen some differences between the way the game actually works and how the help files say the game works. Actually, one case is that dross power is listed in the help files as only being able to get your power to 15% and then cutting off immediately. But it didn't work that way when I went to fill my power. Most of the discrepancies haven't been huge issues, but it is nice to know that when you read a help file it is going to be accurate and I just don't feel that confident about the help files in this game. There is also a HUGE number of them and I really think the entire system could stand to be consolidated.
Welcome to Lusternia! Sorry about the discrepancies in the help files. This is a big game and sometimes things can be missed when writing help files or updating existing mechanics. If you are finding things that don't match up with the help files, I encourage you to use BUG <explanation about what is incorrect about a helpfile>. One of our helpful game administrators will work to make sure that the help file is updated with correct information.
What you might be missing out on (as far as that helpfile goes) is that dross power allows you to get 15% (30 power) in dross every day, automatically unlinking when you get to 15%... or when you've linked 15%, whichever comes first.
So if you start at 0p, you will be unlinked when you get to 10% that first time. 5% will convert itself into your power pool (5% = 10p).
I started playing last Thursday. I really only have a couple comments so far though:
1) The number of prefixes for commands is annoying. You have chant for rituals, abjure for cosmic, evoke for highmagic, etc etc. Really only one command should be needed: cast. What all these prefixes has gotten me to do is make an alias for any spell that I even see myself wanting to use anytime soon so I don't have to remember the prefix.
Just a note, but this is generally because not everything is a 'spell' to be 'cast', in fact I would argue that the vast majority of skills in the game are not spells at all! The idea is that you're doing something fundamentally different for each thing... and that duplicate names would otherwise be a huge problem! It can get a bit confusing if you have to remember the difference between evoke (HighMagic) and invoke (LowMagic) but it becomes natural after a while. For instance, anything in the nature skillset is prefixed by NATURE!
But aliases are a really good move regardless. If you really badly need to use an ability now, it's not really possible if you have to type out "ABJURE QUICKENING" or whatever. Especially for some of the more complicated (By necessity) syntaxes. I've got one that goes something like FETISH SWIFT JOHN NORTH BERSERK MANTAKAYA DULAK. That's up to 6 different input fields! Without aliases, that would be a total nightmare.
Comments
Heck, you could even get a bit of the Soulless vs. Vernal interaction in there!
Then you set things right.
I like this Great Library idea. Could even make it to where NPCs there are only for influence, not combat, that way nobody can come kill the person that is giving away this information.
I would be upset too.
These are rough ideas right now but it's something that would allow the newbies a chance to contribute in a way that ONLY they can to the org they're a part of.
This could extend to guilds even. A special guild bonus like 10% extra gold drops or xp per kill/influence when a newbie does a certain quest.
It could be abused, sure, but so can everything else.
First is the idea of making a curriculum of lessons for newbies to learn. The curriculum would have to be 150 lessons or less (or however much Newbies start out with) and once initiated by the proper collegium teacher, you will over the course of a minute or so learn all the 150 lessons, as well as be treated to messages that explain exactly what it is that you're learning. The messages and the lessons learned can be set by the GA. Send the newbies here first, before trying to get them into Newton, so that they can learn their basic hunting attack.
Second, the graduation being initiated by a command that invites citizens to participate, rather than by time spent or quests completed, is a great idea. It'll make the graduation process far more memorable and interesting, and opens up opportunities for the novice to meet and befriend his/her fellow citymates. Perhaps have two different graduation ceremonies, depending on if he/she graduates with honours or not.
Third, give novices autoconglute everywhere, either by tying it to level (below 30) or grace of innocence. Making Immolation cheaper/free won't help as much because that places the additional pre-requisites that A, there's someone around to immolate him, B, that the body is even possible to reach. You can't get a corpse from Newton, for example. And getting into the correct gravedigger pit or roc nest can take a lot of time.
I like the idea of there being quests that are only available for lower level poeple to do. Oh, and how about add a thing to squads that if everyone is below a certain level and within 5 levels of each other, they get some kind of bonus. Everytime I've seen a squad, it's been someone really high level just basically killing everything while a lower level just stands there. Which is nice, and all, but why not something to encourage a group of novices to work together to bring down opponents instead? Getting to know people who're new like you, so you can compare experiences and so on. And yeah, many of the novices might be alts, but that's ok, cause they can answer questions too.
Furthermore, I think that player retention is and always will fall in the hands of those in the org they choose to play in.
When I first started playing, I died a lot, but I'm persistent. I had my brother who played as well and he helped out a lot. But without having a friend who plays, or having a lot of interaction, I would have never kept playing.
Entered by: Iosai the Anomaly Date: 2013-01-18 13:46:36
o Newbies (under level 30) now have a much shorter "pray for salvation"
sequence.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
I like! No idea how short it is now, but I'm guessing this will alleviate any problems of novices feeling the need to give up Innocence for the sake of lichseed or other resurrection methods.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
I know this means that a lot of people would just config it off and leave it there.
I started playing last Thursday. I really only have a couple comments so far though:
1) The number of prefixes for commands is annoying. You have chant for rituals, abjure for cosmic, evoke for highmagic, etc etc. Really only one command should be needed: cast. What all these prefixes has gotten me to do is make an alias for any spell that I even see myself wanting to use anytime soon so I don't have to remember the prefix.
2) I hear there's a lot of lore, but it doesn't seem to be very accessible. I have read through some of the history in the help files. I havn't checked out the libraries yet, I guess that's where most of the lore for the game is. But honestly when I am logged in I would rather be playing the game and not knee-deep in help files or library books. I guess part of the problem is I need to find a MUD client that has a window for chat and a window for everything else.
HOWEVER it is really cool that you guys actually have libraries with books in them. It's a great bit of atmosphere.
3) I can't remember exactly where, but I swear I have seen some differences between the way the game actually works and how the help files say the game works. Actually, one case is that dross power is listed in the help files as only being able to get your power to 15% and then cutting off immediately. But it didn't work that way when I went to fill my power. Most of the discrepancies haven't been huge issues, but it is nice to know that when you read a help file it is going to be accurate and I just don't feel that confident about the help files in this game. There is also a HUGE number of them and I really think the entire system could stand to be consolidated.
On a positive note the community has been absolutely wonderful answering my questions and helping me learn the game
4) There is no map of the Hallifax university, and I wish there was. I would also like a Hallifax city map because I really want to see a graphic to show me what that city actually looks like (I like Hallifax
5) Having to find widgets every time I wanted to get to the later parts of Newton was really annoying. I actually renounced grace and took a stab at an area that was beyond me just so I didn't have to kill hordes of finks in order to get to the higher level areas of Newton. It didn't work out that well, lol.
6) I wish that the CGHELP command had been pointed out to me earlier. That command really should be included in the tutorial if it isn't already (maybe I just missed it?). I spent a lot of time running around on the newbie quests trying to find things.
Maybe I will come up with more later. But I really like the MUD so far
So if you start at 0p, you will be unlinked when you get to 10% that first time. 5% will convert itself into your power pool (5% = 10p).