Monk Overhaul

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Comments

  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    edited February 2017
    Veyils said:
    I'd be wary about relying upon poisons them selves due to the extra resistances various skillsets provide. Unless your putting in specific ways to neutralise them on a regular basis

    Yes, that's in the stances. It's not on a very consistent basis (not every form), but when it procs, it's 100%. It's a give-and-take from the old status quo. Nekotai used to be able to, once they hit a certain momentum, consistently apply a mod that lowered enemy shrug chance, for every form above that threshold. Now, we can only affect enemy shrug chance in one of our stances, but it lowers it to zero when it happens.

  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Just had a thought warriors are effectively immune to the new "slit lock" with hunger. So relying upon the new slit lock for big warrior targets won't really work.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Lerad said:
    Veyils said:
    I'd be wary about relying upon poisons them selves due to the extra resistances various skillsets provide. Unless your putting in specific ways to neutralise them on a regular basis

    Yes, that's in the stances. It's not on a very consistent basis (not every form), but when it procs, it's 100%. It's a give-and-take from the old status quo. Nekotai used to be able to, once they hit a certain momentum, consistently apply a mod that lowered enemy shrug chance, for every form above that threshold. Now, we can only affect enemy shrug chance in one of our stances, but it lowers it to zero when it happens.
    Is that 100% chance to land the poison properly bypassing warrior immunity and trade skill poison resistance?
  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 138 Adept
    Veyils said:
    Just had a thought warriors are effectively immune to the new "slit lock" with hunger. So relying upon the new slit lock for big warrior targets won't really work.
    You can hunger prone? 
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    edited February 2017
    Wobou said:
    Veyils said:
    Just had a thought warriors are effectively immune to the new "slit lock" with hunger. So relying upon the new slit lock for big warrior targets won't really work.
    You can hunger prone? 

    Yep, Three sec equi, no power cost. Would cure the anorexia. Which would let you dust to cure asthma, then smoke to cure slickness then apply ice to get out of it totally.
  • JharenJharen Member Posts: 8 Apprentice
    I get that I'm basically a nobody on Lusternia, but given that I am basically taking a break until these changes get put into the game, I'd like to give a little bit of my opinion.

    So, the addition of a viable instakill for each version of the Monk is really great. I think having something to build to other than just 'overwhelming damage kill' is very flavorful and cool. That being said, I am not quite sure why modifiers exist in the spreadsheet like '+10% damage'. Are we trying to help build to the instakill, or are we trying to still damage kill? I think having the Surge Low stance for Ninjakari give 100 bleeding like it gives Tahtetso 200 bruising would be reasonable.

    I also get the idea of a lot of this overhaul being done with the input of a 'council' of Monk players, since obviously it affects them the most. However, I do hope that for those of us who aren't in clans and councils, we might get the Overview part of that spreadsheet more thoroughly explained. As in, what is the overarching goal of the Monk's abilities in combat with these changes? One of the biggest problems I see with this class, in my short time in Lusternia, and at least with Ninjakari, is there is not explanation as to what your 'goal' is in combat other than 'use these skills to hold someone down and hope you can damage kill them'. I just would like it if the admin can use this opportunity to express to the wider playerbase what the function and method of the Monk class is intended to be.

    Thanks!
  • BandeonBandeon Member Posts: 61 Capable
    Jharen said:
    I get that I'm basically a nobody on Lusternia, but given that I am basically taking a break until these changes get put into the game, I'd like to give a little bit of my opinion.

    So, the addition of a viable instakill for each version of the Monk is really great. I think having something to build to other than just 'overwhelming damage kill' is very flavorful and cool. That being said, I am not quite sure why modifiers exist in the spreadsheet like '+10% damage'. Are we trying to help build to the instakill, or are we trying to still damage kill? I think having the Surge Low stance for Ninjakari give 100 bleeding like it gives Tahtetso 200 bruising would be reasonable.

    I also get the idea of a lot of this overhaul being done with the input of a 'council' of Monk players, since obviously it affects them the most. However, I do hope that for those of us who aren't in clans and councils, we might get the Overview part of that spreadsheet more thoroughly explained. As in, what is the overarching goal of the Monk's abilities in combat with these changes? One of the biggest problems I see with this class, in my short time in Lusternia, and at least with Ninjakari, is there is not explanation as to what your 'goal' is in combat other than 'use these skills to hold someone down and hope you can damage kill them'. I just would like it if the admin can use this opportunity to express to the wider playerbase what the function and method of the Monk class is intended to be.

    Thanks!
    Well, couple things here. First, talk to your guild! There's not really any class or spec that straight tells you what your kill conditions are, so getting in contact with the people in your guild to talk about kill methods and such is pretty vital to learning a class. That said, you came into monks at a weird time, where half our afflictions are gone, and damage kill is the only really viable way most monks can kill anyone.

    Secondly, the "council of Monks" is just the Monkish clan, which is open to anyone with an interest. I -believe- any GC or GM can induct you into it, but if not, get a message to Malarious, who I know can.

    Third, for Ninjakari, it seems like the idea is to build bruising/bleeding and purity affs until you can hit your insta, with a secondary strat of going for more ice affs. A third option would be to go for what's called a greenlock. It seems like Ninjakari have the tools for it, although you'd need to get lucky on a poison to get the full effect.

    Fourth, the idea for monks (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) is for them to become a bursty affliction class. The idea being that after a certain amount of time, monks should be able to hit you with enough affs to either overload curing or hit their insta. This is pretty similar to how monks were pre-overhaul, although some kits do this a little better than others. I feel like the overhaul's doing a pretty good job of balancing that aspect of monks out. It should become much much much less common for a monk to damage kill someone, unless you count a bleed/bruise out as a damage kill.
  • BandeonBandeon Member Posts: 61 Capable
    Veyils said:
    Lerad said:
    Veyils said:
    I'd be wary about relying upon poisons them selves due to the extra resistances various skillsets provide. Unless your putting in specific ways to neutralise them on a regular basis

    Yes, that's in the stances. It's not on a very consistent basis (not every form), but when it procs, it's 100%. It's a give-and-take from the old status quo. Nekotai used to be able to, once they hit a certain momentum, consistently apply a mod that lowered enemy shrug chance, for every form above that threshold. Now, we can only affect enemy shrug chance in one of our stances, but it lowers it to zero when it happens.
    Is that 100% chance to land the poison properly bypassing warrior immunity and trade skill poison resistance?
    I really hope not. Immunity is a 4p defense if I remember correctly, with a chance to go away each time it's fired, and poisons trans requires a pretty hefty investment in lessons and even then only affects one poison. I'm not seeing any poison that is vital to Nekotai offense that isn't as vital to other classes that it deserves to be balanced around.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    edited February 2017
    Bandeon said:
    Veyils said:
    Lerad said:
    Veyils said:
    I'd be wary about relying upon poisons them selves due to the extra resistances various skillsets provide. Unless your putting in specific ways to neutralise them on a regular basis

    Yes, that's in the stances. It's not on a very consistent basis (not every form), but when it procs, it's 100%. It's a give-and-take from the old status quo. Nekotai used to be able to, once they hit a certain momentum, consistently apply a mod that lowered enemy shrug chance, for every form above that threshold. Now, we can only affect enemy shrug chance in one of our stances, but it lowers it to zero when it happens.
    Is that 100% chance to land the poison properly bypassing warrior immunity and trade skill poison resistance?
    I really hope not. Immunity is a 4p defense if I remember correctly, with a chance to go away each time it's fired, and poisons trans requires a pretty hefty investment in lessons and even then only affects one poison. I'm not seeing any poison that is vital to Nekotai offense that isn't as vital to other classes that it deserves to be balanced around.

    Useful poisons are so limited though a single class skill immunity to resisting it so well is going to really hurt any class that requires landing and keeping poisons on someone, especially when you have set ones that are required.  Immunity is also an easily reapply able defense, it lasts long enough to be able to regenerate the power before it falls off. The only downside is your using four power for defense instead of offense.  I speak as someone with these skills right now.  I don't often upkeep immunity mid fight because no poisons are really deadly to be having on you for extended periods of time but if I were to fight a class that required hefty poison build up to kill me then yes I'd just keep it on upkeep and never die to them.

    You pretty much always have immunity up in all group fights though, they don't often last long enough for it to be burnt off.

    My general point is that a class that relies on sticking poisons is going to have a bad time unless they have the tools to get around these problems. It'd be like if I had a natural resistance or a passive way of removing rubies or curing wounds plus the existing actives vs warriors or institute.

    EDIT: You could look into overhauling the existing poisons, maybe throw in a few more afflictions from them I guess to give more of a spread and make poisons more deadly in themselves.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    edited February 2017
    Tweaking (ie. buffing) poisons is needed, yes, to replace (or delete) calcise and dendroxin if nothing else.

    Regarding Athletics Immunity and normal shrugging, I don't actually see a conflict.

    1) Nekotai aren't going to be able to fully bypass shrugging every single form - the bypass is only in one of the stances, and the stances are designed so that a Nekotai needs to cycle down to the lower stances to get the full effects.

    A full poison bypass works like this: Nekotai hits his twist (2nd) stance, and activates the "next surge (4th) stance guarantee's poisons transfer" effect. He boosts or normally hits up to surge stance, and goes into the poison surge stance. The effect of guaranteed poison transfer then activates, and combines with the "lower shrugging chance for poisons in this form to 0" effect of that stance - tada, you get one set of attack that bypasses all poison defenses. Even if the Nekotai then spent power to drop down to the surge stance again, he'll only get the "lower shrugging chance" effect, not the full transfer effect, which means his poisons are back to less than 100% chance.

    Without cycling past Killer (5th) to go back down to activate the earlier stances for their carry over effects, the Nekotai won't get the full effects. I think it's fair to bypass shrug in this way, when those are the limits.

    2) When the lower shrug chance form hits, it'll guarantee the poisons hitting. It therefore means that the 4p immunity ability won't fire... and therefore won't get expended. You'll get hit by the full poisons, yes, and immunity won't help you, yes, but the defense will stay up. You'll still have a higher shrug chance for poisons in other Nekotai stances, and to shrug poisons from non Nekotai.

  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    Report 1188 has been officially approved, which changes the DamagedOrgan affliction. I'm unsure if the proposed monk design takes that into account. Here's the change:

    Change DamagedOrgans to a heavy modifier. Change the effect to reduce the target's poison shrugging to 0, and weapon attacks against the target always have the poison rub off the blade.


  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Shedrin said:
    Report 1188 has been officially approved, which changes the DamagedOrgan affliction. I'm unsure if the proposed monk design takes that into account. Here's the change:

    Change DamagedOrgans to a heavy modifier. Change the effect to reduce the target's poison shrugging to 0, and weapon attacks against the target always have the poison rub off the blade.



    Hit damaged organ. Hit Slit lock attack for a 100% chance of slit locking then?
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Well, there's focus to cure damagedorgans first, and the user will need to regain balance before doing a greenlock thing. For warriors, I think it probably won't be OP.

    For monks, they don't get inherent wound ice delay, and Nekotai at least have a weaker ice stack, which is not something I'm planning to change. I did, however, mis-read the damaged organs report - I thought it only guarantee'd poison transfer, and didn't affect shrugging. With that, it could well even mean that other monks than Nekotai will be better at poisons, specifically those which have a stronger ice stack that can put out higher priority ice afflictions than damagedorgans consistently, ensuring they get more mileage out of that aff.

    Well, that also does mean it's definitely nowhere near alarming for Nekotai's stance effects to stay as they are - depending on the situation, I may well need to change them to a different tack, instead, or we'll simply not be as good at poisons as everyone else (lol).

  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    I see some Nekotai skills have been adjusted. The greenlock has been effectively removed. Unfortunately with the DamagedOrgans change, I think Ninjakari can do the guaranteed greenlock as well.

    I like the cycle of weaker->stronger->repeat that stances encourage. I'm kinda wary of the bonus effects. I think there's already incentive to progress to higher stances in that you get more powerful attacks and effects. If anything, I might suggest changing it so you can't proc the active effect of a stance again if you regress stance. This would really encourage cycling through.


  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    Ok, bout to start review. Will break my whole thing into piecemeal. Cause it could be huge... we will see.

    Couple notes though:
    1) Monkish only looked at the spreadsheet given to us, it was not our design. A lot of changes were made on feedback, like changing insta's, affliction stacks, etc.  More coming.
    2) I am fully okay with changing Hunger to be stopped by things like paralysis to make the setup viable. Hard counters are bad, and can be adjusted to cope if needed.
    3) I'm hesitant to talk about "equilibrium affliction level", as that implies sitting at that status a lot. A perpetual level of vessels would mean a constant bleeding that you can't even clot down well. This would be a problem when the insta feeds on it.
    4) Conversely, I am concerned about bleeding/bruising. I have concerns that it will be impossible to reliably build them up. I do not want to propose alternative insta's though yet, because for all I know I am missing something (like a form doing the bleeding it would need).

    Ok. I will edit this post with my "overall review", then we can break into specifics.
  • DahllaDahlla Member Posts: 7 Inept
    edited February 2017
    Looking over ninjakari new breakdown on the spreadsheet, my concerns are the same in regards to bruise/bleeding buildup.  I know that warriors have had a difficult time with this, so I worry that ninjakari's primary way of getting a kill is based heavily on bleed/bruising will be too difficult to get.  That said, it will likely be something that will need to be tested in beta to know for sure. I am still working on a more thorough review and will post my observations, questions and concerns soon. 

    Edit: FYI I was removed as envoy without my knowledge or desire to be replaced. I will remain active in the overhaul as this class means everything to me. 

  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Ninja seem to have lost the ability to slicklock at all.




    That just leaves Shofang with a viable single move solo instant slick lock, requires one venom to land.

    Kumato stance for slickness
    arm Butojo for damaged throat
    kick Stomp for asthma and prone.
    Anorexia venom for the slick lock.

    Tahetso and neko could give the afflictions I suppose

    kick Bomol'sho for asthma
    Bairakobo grapple ender for damaged throat and anorexia/slickness venom.
    and
    arm Angkhai for damaged throat.
    Ootangk grapple ender for asthma

    But as I understand it you can't really hit the grapple ender along side another combo.


    I'm wondering if there's a reason why were moving the slit lock out of fairly easy single combo moves for everyone but shofang?




  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 138 Adept
    Veyils said:
    Kumato stance for slickness
    arm Butojo for damaged throat
    kick Stomp for asthma and prone.
    Anorexia venom for the slick lock.

    If I'm following this correctly this is slightly incorrect. Stomp only causes asthma if the target is already prone. So Shofangi do not have a way to do all of a lock in one form (that I can see) but they can come close. If a target is pre-prone then it works as you stated. (Although as of writing this stomp chest is actually blank so they may be changing things up as we speak.)

    While we're commenting on stuff. One thing I noticed about stomp that may or may not be a problem is it's basically parry avoidance for life if you stomp first at the cost of not doing a "nice" affliction with your kick That seems possibly overly good to me although I like the stomp mechanic overall so hopefully we can find a way to preserve most of it without it being overwhelming.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    edited February 2017
    Ahh I may have been misreading it. Still its pretty powerful for groups then. You can just spam the one combo over and over. It'll prone and then do asthma on the next hit with a focused group target. Or against classes with slower attacks than monks which is most you could do two combos in the time they use their 4sec equis.

    EDIT:
    Although I do notice they've just taken asthma out of the spreadsheet which seems fine.

    I figure if we're shifting out slit locks may as well shift it out for all monks though.

    EDIT2:
    Although even for other monks their partial slick lock combos are going to be pretty spamable for group combat. The nekotai one just needs asthma to hit from another source like  meld maybe. Etc etc.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Question, whats the ice cure time for these monks afflictions?

    As in a shofang hits me with damagedskull and I apply ice? How quick will I cure it?

  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 138 Adept
    Veyils said:
    Question, whats the ice cure time for these monks afflictions?

    As in a shofang hits me with damagedskull and I apply ice? How quick will I cure it?

    I'm not sure what the overhaul will bring but I can tell you what happens now since I can cause ice affs. Currently it looks like things with no wounds cure instantly. So for example if I damage my own skull with no wounds it cures instantly. If i give myself collapsedchest it also cures instantly. That should maybe be changed slightly to have a slight delay in the overhaul or we're going to overly emphasize teaming warriors and monks together. What I'm curious about is if this is only true for 0 wounds or if it's true for all light wounds, I'd need a warrior to test that though.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Wobou said:
    Veyils said:
    Question, whats the ice cure time for these monks afflictions?

    As in a shofang hits me with damagedskull and I apply ice? How quick will I cure it?

    I'm not sure what the overhaul will bring but I can tell you what happens now since I can cause ice affs. Currently it looks like things with no wounds cure instantly. So for example if I damage my own skull with no wounds it cures instantly. If i give myself collapsedchest it also cures instantly. That should maybe be changed slightly to have a slight delay in the overhaul or we're going to overly emphasize teaming warriors and monks together. What I'm curious about is if this is only true for 0 wounds or if it's true for all light wounds, I'd need a warrior to test that though.

    Stuff like damaged skull have a 1ish second cure delay at light wounds for warriors.

    Also damaged skull from other sources has a delay as well, like go and get a wildwood to hit you with their passives and they hit with a delayed ice cure. 
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    I'm not sure if monks should get a ice curing delay (beyond what is specifically built into special abilities to give that). Monks can give ice afflictions without a wound requirement, so the opponent shouldn't have to cure it as though they had wounds. It obviously significantly weakens a monk's ice stack compared to a warrior, and I think that's fine.

    The issue about stomp being a free parry-bypass every form is basically the same problem as Nekotai Angknek legs proning the target that I brought up in my first post (which the admin have already changed). You need to put the prone behind a requirement of some sort, preferably one that requires a grapple ender or a surge/killer form (the way the new Nekotai Angknek legs work)

  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    I was just thinking about a little damage thing. Monk damage with these changes seems very sub par compared to every other class.

    600-900 base form damage

    Sprongma % based increase based on afflictions. Highly unlikey that they could stack more than a few up and try damage. I don't predict neko being able to pull more than 1000-1200 damage a combo if their very lucky.  Ninja shofang, are similar in a way with just a few 10%/15% increases here and there, they wont stack up much. Tahetso don't seem to have any damage based route to go.

    They all may have hefty bleed/bruise stacks though so could balance out but hard to say with clotting as it is now.

    Is it part of the design to remove damage as an option for monks? Shift all damage to clot mechanics instead?


  • DrakiusDrakius Member Posts: 302 Gifted
    Dahlla said:


    Edit: FYI I was removed as envoy without my knowledge or desire to be replaced. I will remain active in the overhaul as this class means everything to me. 

    8.5.2 POSITION OF GUILD ENVOY

           PREV | POSITION OF GUILD               POSITION OF GUILD | NEXT
          8.5.1 | PATRON                                  SECRETARY | 8.5.3

    This position is appointed by the Guild Patron. In any regard, the Council of Elder Gods can remove this person from this position at any time and for any reason and demand another appointment.


    Typically people who don't understand their class don't become envoy. And no, you apparently did not know it after complaining pulling off kills was impossible then having Rideta come in and doing pretty well with it less than 24 hours later in a faethorn fight.

    More on topic, I'm glad we're finally getting the monk rework pushed through. Much hype.
    The playa you love to hate
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    They just updated the spread sheet in response to the damage questions 

    "The baseline expected damage for each for will be between 600-900. This does not include buffs or the damage modifiers against prone targets and other extras. The intention is for monks to be focused on overwhelming with afflictions and status effects with damage mostly acting as a preasure against keeping mana up."

    So ya Monks wont have a damage option basically.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    edited February 2017
    Just been thinking about the instant kills as well.

    Shofang seem like they'd have  a pretty quick route for group combat.

    2x Boganj and Buck kick hits all the 3 afflictions needed on a target. Counts as 750 bleed. Grapple move to reapply one of the iceafflicts that get cured off, all three counts as 750 plus the 750 for the grapple then the hit for the instant kill.


    Ninja as well they can Ninombhi for dysentary, Ashlamkh for Damaged organs, Ninthugi for internal bleeding and hit a venom for vomiting plus one other dust aff. Thats all four of the required instant kill build afflictions in one combo counts as 800 bleed 400 bruise. Then they could strike the enemy for an instant kill in the second combo if I understand this right. So Crux+ this combo for unavoidable death for example

    The best Tahetsoo could do is Rakti'sho, Bomolah'sho and Starkick to get three but even if they got all of their afflictions stuck on someone they'd also need some brusing to kill. Similar to neko, they'd have to hit all their afflictions and build bleed.

    Shofang and Ninja(more so) have instant kill set ups that could be performed in the space of a crux or a group sky4stanza hit without needing a single bit of bleed or bruising built up.

    It just feels a bit off to me if they could be hit so quickly. Neko would require a fair few hits to build up that many vessels and Tahetso even if they got all their required instant kill afflictions still would need to build up at least a little bit of brusing.

    This is all just paperwork theory though so it could be wrong but just sort of reviewing the instant kills and set ups required.

    Post edited by Deichtine on
  • SluelughSluelugh Member Posts: 37 Apprentice
    edited February 2017
    Maybe I am off base on my understanding of the overhaul but it seems to me that since the affs you're referring to are on separate cures, it's unlikely that you will be able to stack them in one balance and then have them there for the kill condition on the next balance unless you have two cure stacks built to prevent them being cured simultaneously. I think the fact that tahtetso has all ice cures for kill condition actually works heavily in their favor. That said, I do see your point on Shofangi.

    It won't be a quick kill anyway as you don't get the bonus effects if you boost past base/twist stances. The bonus effect seems to be how they are limiting the quick boost to max/kill condition as you won't properly stack/delay cures needed for the kill.

    That said, I could be missing something vital.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    You dont need the bonus effects to do what I was talking about. I didnt take the bonus effects into account at all when I was looking at it. 

    The Shofang one would require three moves Combo 1 Butojo/Boganj/Buck, Combo 2 Logami or Tomati  grapple to reapply an ice aff or hit with 500 bleed + a kick to reapply another ice aff. Then Combo 3 is kill.

    The Ninja one is a bit worse in that they can hit Ninombhi for dysentary, Ashlamkh for Damaged organs, Ninthugi for internal bleeding and hit a venom for vomiting plus one other dust aff in a single combo and then hit instant kill on combo two.

    Only requirement is stance level. Which a monk could in theory def up to before the fight or if not its quick to get to from the sounds of the power and stance switching

    Not really a problem one on one but in groups like I said crux + the ninja combo on a 3.5 balance would be unavoiable 
  • SluelughSluelugh Member Posts: 37 Apprentice
    edited February 2017
    Wouldn't it be at least six power to boost to surge stance? You wouldn't have power back for the kill in time. Aren't there a fair amount of combinations that in group combat would be a quick death or at least a pretty solid lock down? I do understand what you're getting at but if you consider that the ninja affs are on two different cure balances, figure in parrying (all of those affs are on gut strikes iirc) and consider poison chance and shrugging, I don't know that it's as reliable as you're implying.

    You are essentially saying that this one single combination of skills would make it an instant kill but I don't think I can agree to that until we see it practice. 
    Post edited by Sluelugh on
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