Isn't the whole point of controversial quests the potential for consequence, which is a key part of the roleplay and immersion experience? It'd be so boring if people didn't react to it... You're just doing some variation of a basic puzzle otherwise.
It is boring because all you need to do to police it is to check a log
As in every system out there, be it real world or fantasy games, you only receive a punishment on being caught. If authorities just had a magic log akin to Minority Report then there straight up would be no conflict or 'crime' in any case.
I would definitely do some quests if it wouldn't make my time in game shitty just from someone checking my honours or looking at a seemingly OOC mechanic
As in every system out there, be it real world or fantasy games, you only receive a punishment on being caught. If authorities just had a magic log akin to Minority Report then there straight up would be no conflict or 'crime' in any case.
On a different angle, when you're playing a pen & paper RP and someone has committed a crime, you generally have a reasonable expectation of being able to figure out who has done it after the fact.
Mechanisms that enable the other side to figure out who's been bad outside a simple lookup would mean you might get away with whatever you've done but you could also get caught.
A lot of these conflict quests are easily interruptible as is, and for those without laurels to hide honours, that's your method of finding who's done what. Not to mention the large scale ones make an announcement of who dun it.
So I probed the seren nexus and found out it only weighs 4,095 pounds while also stating it's the largest tree in Serenwilde that towers "far above" the rest of the tree line. With some research I found that the Moonhart would likely be around 5 feet considering its weight (if compared to an oak).
So with this we can come to the clear conclusion that Lusternia isn't its own reality instead it is a play area for children (Who are the players of mortals while the staff or whatever are the Divine) and the heights are scaled to the size of the toys (which are much smaller since the biggest tree in the game is only 5 feet). Lusternia exists as a playground for humans (who were mysteriously brought to the world huh?) and each character is controlled by one as are the divine.
As in every system out there, be it real world or fantasy games, you only receive a punishment on being caught. If authorities just had a magic log akin to Minority Report then there straight up would be no conflict or 'crime' in any case.
On a different angle, when you're playing a pen & paper RP and someone has committed a crime, you generally have a reasonable expectation of being able to figure out who has done it after the fact.
Mechanisms that enable the other side to figure out who's been bad outside a simple lookup would mean you might get away with whatever you've done but you could also get caught.
There's generally a risk attached to any attempt to uncover details like that, though. And a chance to fail.
A lot of these conflict quests are easily interruptible as is, and for those without laurels to hide honours, that's your method of finding who's done what. Not to mention the large scale ones make an announcement of who dun it.
*shrug* If you want to make an argument by comparing to other systems/reality then you need to accept the full view, part of which is that investigation can be done after the crime.
There's generally a risk attached to any attempt to uncover details like that, though. And a chance to fail.
QUEST RANKINGS has neither.
Sure, but having something ic like an investigation type quest provides a mechanism by which the "criminal" can be caught without being trivial.
Also, the comments on honours really drive home that it sits on either end of the spectrum depending on laurels. If you don't have them there's no difficulty in being found out, if you do then it's effectively impossible to be found out unless you're caught in the act.
Contentious quests should be a very immersive experience, your actions have offended at least one, if not multiple, entire orgs. But if the only way to tell is honours, then Saran could probably get away with doing the Eaf quest. Cause, if honours or being caught with one is all I need to watch out for, I probably don't have much to worry about if I decided to pursue that as a seren.
So I probed the seren nexus and found out it only weighs 4,095 pounds while also stating it's the largest tree in Serenwilde that towers "far above" the rest of the tree line. With some research I found that the Moonhart would likely be around 5 feet considering its weight (if compared to an oak).
Are you comparing to a RL oak tree with that weight example? Because IG trees weigh far less than the Moonhart does.
A cubic foot of green "Red Oak" is about 60 pounds. About 68 cubic foot of red oak would be 4095 pounds. So, really, a 4'x4'x4' block of solid oak would be about that much weight.
Or maybe the MM is hollow or ate up by termites, and it's tall but has no real mass.
Her voice firm and commanding, Terentia, the Even Bladed says to you, "You have kept your oath to Me, Parhelion. You have sworn to maintain Justice in these troubled times."
Yet if a boon be granted me, unworthy as I am, let it be for a steady hand with a clear eye and a fury most inflaming.
The reason I ask, is because if you probe a full grown oak tree in game, it weighs nothing close to the Moonhart, thus owing to it's expansive size above the others.
Maybe the tree is made of witches because there's a duck somewhere in Lusternia that weighs the same.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
As in every system out there, be it real world or fantasy games, you only receive a punishment on being caught. If authorities just had a magic log akin to Minority Report then there straight up would be no conflict or 'crime' in any case.
On a different angle, when you're playing a pen & paper RP and someone has committed a crime, you generally have a reasonable expectation of being able to figure out who has done it after the fact.
Mechanisms that enable the other side to figure out who's been bad outside a simple lookup would mean you might get away with whatever you've done but you could also get caught.
The lack of evidence to gather. Perhaps there could be a window of time in which the NPCs would tell who did their quest, whether just bragging about it or being bribed for the information?
Checking everyone's honors seems unnecessarily obsessive. I would check if there was reason to believe the quest had been done within the past few hours/days, but not going to read through 50 lines of honors just to grill someone about a quest they did 5 years ago. So I'm ok with the honors system myself, even if it'd be neat if the NPCs would rat people out. Or other ways to get evidence.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
As in every system out there, be it real world or fantasy games, you only receive a punishment on being caught. If authorities just had a magic log akin to Minority Report then there straight up would be no conflict or 'crime' in any case.
On a different angle, when you're playing a pen & paper RP and someone has committed a crime, you generally have a reasonable expectation of being able to figure out who has done it after the fact.
Mechanisms that enable the other side to figure out who's been bad outside a simple lookup would mean you might get away with whatever you've done but you could also get caught.
The lack of evidence to gather. Perhaps there could be a window of time in which the NPCs would tell who did their quest, whether just bragging about it or being bribed for the information?
Checking everyone's honors seems unnecessarily obsessive. I would check if there was reason to believe the quest had been done within the past few hours/days, but not going to read through 50 lines of honors just to grill someone about a quest they did 5 years ago. So I'm ok with the honors system myself, even if it'd be neat if the NPCs would rat people out. Or other ways to get evidence.
Working against lack of evidence, we do also have powers beyond what characters can instantly access. Like Moon could assist with truth discerning in interrogations, hallifax might have some ability to glimpse back in time, etc. (edit: if you did this, the way I'd imagine this would work is you'd have a thing you do in your org and when doing the investigation they could proc on different things, like you do a moon ritual and then it might have a chance of revealing things that are concealed.)
I imagine you could potentially set up some automation to check, the main issue with using honours for me is that once you've done the quest once you can do it as many more times as you like.
Working against lack of evidence, we do also have powers beyond what characters can instantly access. Like Moon could assist with truth discerning in interrogations, hallifax might have some ability to glimpse back in time, etc. (edit: if you did this, the way I'd imagine this would work is you'd have a thing you do in your org and when doing the investigation they could proc on different things, like you do a moon ritual and then it might have a chance of revealing things that are concealed.)
Prophecy rituals. Instead of summoning Mother Night and her just yammering about killing Stag again, she could be all "DID YOU KNOW AYDEKSA HAS BEEN MAKING EAFS?! GO KILL STAG IN REVENGE" or whatever.
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
Working against lack of evidence, we do also have powers beyond what characters can instantly access. Like Moon could assist with truth discerning in interrogations, hallifax might have some ability to glimpse back in time, etc. (edit: if you did this, the way I'd imagine this would work is you'd have a thing you do in your org and when doing the investigation they could proc on different things, like you do a moon ritual and then it might have a chance of revealing things that are concealed.)
Prophecy rituals. Instead of summoning Mother Night and her just yammering about killing Stag again, she could be all "DID YOU KNOW AYDEKSA HAS BEEN MAKING EAFS?! GO KILL STAG IN REVENGE" or whatever.
lol, if it slipped into the rotation you could have it be like a random chance to have a confirmed catch?
I guess the reason I like the investigation part (which could be done along with prophecies dobbing people in) is just cause it's active and targeted?
Working against lack of evidence, we do also have powers beyond what characters can instantly access. Like Moon could assist with truth discerning in interrogations, hallifax might have some ability to glimpse back in time, etc. (edit: if you did this, the way I'd imagine this would work is you'd have a thing you do in your org and when doing the investigation they could proc on different things, like you do a moon ritual and then it might have a chance of revealing things that are concealed.)
I imagine you could potentially set up some automation to check, the main issue with using honours for me is that once you've done the quest once you can do it as many more times as you like.
I like the idea of this. And yes, you could set up automation to check... but even so I can't imagine that'd be a way I'd want to spend my time. And as you say, there's no way of knowing how long ago it was. The only way I would use honors is if someone told me/had reason to believe: "Hey so-and-so did that quest you hate yesterday." Check honors: They have the line, time to burn the witch!
Prophecy rituals. Instead of summoning Mother Night and her just yammering about killing Stag again, she could be all "DID YOU KNOW AYDEKSA HAS BEEN MAKING EAFS?! GO KILL STAG IN REVENGE" or whatever.
Yesss... I mean, assuming all the org quests were equivalent. I would do the Glom epic for this, but no credit amount or promise of revenge could compel me to build that statue again.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
All of that is pointless and needlessly complicated as long as QUEST RANKINGS exists.
All of that is a suggestion to provide a solution that would balance between what different people seem to be asking for.
If it was actually put up for implementation then you'd also discuss whether you anonymise the rankings or change how they're available.
The first hides who did the thing but you can leave your name visible to you so you can see where you sit. The second means you could have like... the quest giver could tell you where you sit in the rankings etc. The main difference is that the first, if watched, can give an indicator that someone has completed a quest and so spur an investigation.
I like the idea of this. And yes, you could set up automation to check... but even so I can't imagine that'd be a way I'd want to spend my time. And as you say, there's no way of knowing how long ago it was. The only way I would use honors is if someone told me/had reason to believe: "Hey so-and-so did that quest you hate yesterday." Check honors: They have the line, time to burn the witch!
Oh yeah, really I think the suggestion of just checking honours is kinda silly because of how fallible it is.
Like, I've done the halli side of the mirror army quest, so if a Gaudi was only able to use honours, I can do the quest as often as and I'll only get caught if I let them see me doing the quest. Newbie might get caught, but I've done the quest a hundred times since first getting the honour.
For me, an important aspect of RP is also the consequences of your actions.
Part of doing a quest like the Xeeth labs one is accepting that your actions are really offensive to Serenwilde and, I assume, Glomdoring. It being too simple to find out isn't engaging, but making it unreasonable to expect that you'll be caught (i.e just being able to check honours) basically strips away a significant aspect of the rp of the quest. What's the point of even having contentiously themed quests if you just side step that whole dimension of them?
Oh yeah, really I think the suggestion of just checking honours is kinda silly because of how fallible it is.
Like, I've done the halli side of the mirror army quest, so if a Gaudi was only able to use honours, I can do the quest as often as and I'll only get caught if I let them see me doing the quest. Newbie might get caught, but I've done the quest a hundred times since first getting the honour.
If you want to impose punishments and consequences on actions, then you should also have to put in the leg work of actually catching the act that merits the aforementioned punishments and consequences. ie sit there and keep watch, if you want to catch someone in the act; otherwise, you're not entitled punishing anyone doing the quest.
Oh yeah, really I think the suggestion of just checking honours is kinda silly because of how fallible it is.
Like, I've done the halli side of the mirror army quest, so if a Gaudi was only able to use honours, I can do the quest as often as and I'll only get caught if I let them see me doing the quest. Newbie might get caught, but I've done the quest a hundred times since first getting the honour.
If you want to impose punishments and consequences on actions, then you should also have to put in the leg work of actually catching the act that merits the aforementioned punishments and consequences. ie sit there and keep watch, if you want to catch someone in the act; otherwise, you're not entitled punishing anyone doing the quest.
If you don't want to deal with potential punishments and rp consequences because you've decided to perform IC actions that have significant RP and lore based implications then don't perform those actions.
Like, you've made it pretty clear that you want to engage in content that has potential rp consequences but not actually have to deal with those. But when you're suggesting round the clock watches on zones, particular when the Xeeth Labs have been mentioned at all (that opposing quest... oh wait, yeah that's not a thing), I stop taking you seriously.
If you want to impose punishments and consequences on actions, then you should also have to put in the leg work of actually catching the act that merits the aforementioned punishments and consequences. ie sit there and keep watch, if you want to catch someone in the act; otherwise, you're not entitled punishing anyone doing the quest.
Not entitled to? If I decided to make up a story about Magnagorans killing fae, as a completely random example, why does there need to be any evidence for someone to be "entitled" to punish them, IC, if they happen to believe my story? Certainly the players might be annoyed by it, and there might be other consequences, but... even in the real world, crime and punishment aren't necessarily connected to fairness. It's not a great policy from many perspectives, but it is a thing that someone could legitimately roleplay. I don't understand your argument here at all.
Really, all this is about is finding more interesting ways to get evidence than camping quest locations(which, frankly, borders on griefing), depending on useless tools like honors/word of mouth, or depending on the quest-doer to be really bad at keeping secrets. Quests have IC impact, and it should be discoverable. Just... make alts if you don't want to face the consequences.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
The conflict makes for fun times. You should WANT to get caught - at least, that's why I would do those quests (if I wasn't terrible at questing). A huge part of Synl's story is his love for the enemy and how it made him go from Glory be to Glomdoring to Glory be to nature in all its forms. And there was plenty of fun times had by people from Glomdoring going 'Yo what're you doing in Faethorn with the enemy.'
I dunno. Friction is fun. But yea, just disfavors/ousting is terribly boring. There's some cool punishments you can do. As an example, I remember as Nekotai GM, I had it so to get unenemied you had to touch the jeweled scorpions in the caverns. Not a huge deal, at the end of the day you're pressing button x (touching the scorpion) instead of button y (paying gold). But flavor goes a long towards immersion.
If you want to impose punishments and consequences on actions, then you should also have to put in the leg work of actually catching the act that merits the aforementioned punishments and consequences. ie sit there and keep watch, if you want to catch someone in the act; otherwise, you're not entitled punishing anyone doing the quest.
Not entitled to? If I decided to make up a story about Magnagorans killing fae, as a completely random example, why does there need to be any evidence for someone to be "entitled" to punish them, IC, if they happen to believe my story?
Because a vast majority of us are not Glom irl.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
If you want to impose punishments and consequences on actions, then you should also have to put in the leg work of actually catching the act that merits the aforementioned punishments and consequences. ie sit there and keep watch, if you want to catch someone in the act; otherwise, you're not entitled punishing anyone doing the quest.
Not entitled to? If I decided to make up a story about Magnagorans killing fae, as a completely random example, why does there need to be any evidence for someone to be "entitled" to punish them, IC, if they happen to believe my story? Certainly the players might be annoyed by it, and there might be other consequences, but... even in the real world, crime and punishment aren't necessarily connected to fairness. It's not a great policy from many perspectives, but it is a thing that someone could legitimately roleplay. I don't understand your argument here at all.
Really, all this is about is finding more interesting ways to get evidence than camping quest locations(which, frankly, borders on griefing), depending on useless tools like honors/word of mouth, or depending on the quest-doer to be really bad at keeping secrets. Quests have IC impact, and it should be discoverable. Just... make alts if you don't want to face the consequences.
There is discoverable, and there is discoverable.
There were no QUEST RANKINGS back in the days of hai'Gloh Zemordia and yet we still know the key players. Everiine, Narsrim, Talan, Xenthos. Part of the fun of that whole era was figuring out who was doing what. Again, all without the omniscience of QUEST RANKINGS.
There's a lot of magic that we've lost because we've made it so easy and so unexciting to find stuff out.
Comments
Accountability is necessary.
Accountability is necessary.
Mechanisms that enable the other side to figure out who's been bad outside a simple lookup would mean you might get away with whatever you've done but you could also get caught.
So with this we can come to the clear conclusion that Lusternia isn't its own reality instead it is a play area for children (Who are the players of mortals while the staff or whatever are the Divine) and the heights are scaled to the size of the toys (which are much smaller since the biggest tree in the game is only 5 feet). Lusternia exists as a playground for humans (who were mysteriously brought to the world huh?) and each character is controlled by one as are the divine.
Good night, it is time for bed.
QUEST RANKINGS has neither.
Accountability is necessary.
Sure, but having something ic like an investigation type quest provides a mechanism by which the "criminal" can be caught without being trivial.
Also, the comments on honours really drive home that it sits on either end of the spectrum depending on laurels. If you don't have them there's no difficulty in being found out, if you do then it's effectively impossible to be found out unless you're caught in the act.
Contentious quests should be a very immersive experience, your actions have offended at least one, if not multiple, entire orgs. But if the only way to tell is honours, then Saran could probably get away with doing the Eaf quest. Cause, if honours or being caught with one is all I need to watch out for, I probably don't have much to worry about if I decided to pursue that as a seren.
Or maybe the MM is hollow or ate up by termites, and it's tall but has no real mass.
Checking everyone's honors seems unnecessarily obsessive. I would check if there was reason to believe the quest had been done within the past few hours/days, but not going to read through 50 lines of honors just to grill someone about a quest they did 5 years ago. So I'm ok with the honors system myself, even if it'd be neat if the NPCs would rat people out. Or other ways to get evidence.
I imagine you could potentially set up some automation to check, the main issue with using honours for me is that once you've done the quest once you can do it as many more times as you like.
I guess the reason I like the investigation part (which could be done along with prophecies dobbing people in) is just cause it's active and targeted?
Accountability is necessary.
If it was actually put up for implementation then you'd also discuss whether you anonymise the rankings or change how they're available.
The first hides who did the thing but you can leave your name visible to you so you can see where you sit. The second means you could have like... the quest giver could tell you where you sit in the rankings etc.
The main difference is that the first, if watched, can give an indicator that someone has completed a quest and so spur an investigation.
Oh yeah, really I think the suggestion of just checking honours is kinda silly because of how fallible it is.
Like, I've done the halli side of the mirror army quest, so if a Gaudi was only able to use honours, I can do the quest as often as and I'll only get caught if I let them see me doing the quest. Newbie might get caught, but I've done the quest a hundred times since first getting the honour.
Part of doing a quest like the Xeeth labs one is accepting that your actions are really offensive to Serenwilde and, I assume, Glomdoring.
It being too simple to find out isn't engaging, but making it unreasonable to expect that you'll be caught (i.e just being able to check honours) basically strips away a significant aspect of the rp of the quest.
What's the point of even having contentiously themed quests if you just side step that whole dimension of them?
Accountability is necessary.
Like, you've made it pretty clear that you want to engage in content that has potential rp consequences but not actually have to deal with those. But when you're suggesting round the clock watches on zones, particular when the Xeeth Labs have been mentioned at all (that opposing quest... oh wait, yeah that's not a thing), I stop taking you seriously.
Really, all this is about is finding more interesting ways to get evidence than camping quest locations(which, frankly, borders on griefing), depending on useless tools like honors/word of mouth, or depending on the quest-doer to be really bad at keeping secrets. Quests have IC impact, and it should be discoverable. Just... make alts if you don't want to face the consequences.
I dunno. Friction is fun. But yea, just disfavors/ousting is terribly boring. There's some cool punishments you can do. As an example, I remember as Nekotai GM, I had it so to get unenemied you had to touch the jeweled scorpions in the caverns. Not a huge deal, at the end of the day you're pressing button x (touching the scorpion) instead of button y (paying gold). But flavor goes a long towards immersion.
Because a vast majority of us are not Glom irl.
There were no QUEST RANKINGS back in the days of hai'Gloh Zemordia and yet we still know the key players. Everiine, Narsrim, Talan, Xenthos. Part of the fun of that whole era was figuring out who was doing what. Again, all without the omniscience of QUEST RANKINGS.
There's a lot of magic that we've lost because we've made it so easy and so unexciting to find stuff out.
Accountability is necessary.