Character of the organizations

So... I am trying to get a handle of the character of the organizations for the histories of my second char. I know I am going to oversimplify things, but here is what I have gathered so far:

Celest is a theocracy. It seems to me that they do pretty good at being a decent, but can sometimes be very corrupt.

Hallifax is a meritocracy, in theory. I'm sure some politicking goes on and of course burocracy gets in the way sometimes by it's very nature.

Serenwilde seems to be the average Elvish treehugging place.

Glomdoring seems to me to be more chaotic and deceptive, but I really have not gotten any kind of accurate read on Glom yet.

Gaudiguch seems to be ultimately individualistic, and certainly chaotic to a degree because of that. Even if everyone is following their own compass about what "perfection" is, that doesn't necessarily make for any kind of unity.

Magnagora just seems evil to me. I would typify them as lawful evil based on the help file. I mean... nihilism is like the exact opposite of the Celestial specialty. And... it's also called nihilism >.>

Judging by the discussion asking this question started on the Newbie channel I am looking forward to some interesting comments :)
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Comments

  • Serenwilde is a bit off. Primarly that's the stereotype for the forest where elves live and Serenwilde seems to get labelled with this...

    <img src="http://joker.mirar.org/lotro/singing_1stdraft.jpg" />

     

    Realistically, that is part of Serenwilde. But it's also an ancient and mysterious forest, one that holds many secrets within it (sometimes literally), they are the last forest and they will fight an unending war against all that would harm nature.

    Joy and love are parts of life, but so are death and destruction, and if the destruction of the cities is needed to protect the natural world then Serenwilde would happily raze them all to the ground, just like when they let the people of old Celest die when they could have chosen to help them or when they went to war with Gaudiguch over the experiements they were performing on helpless animals (they didn't picket the pyramids, they went into a bloody war that ended up branding the forest and tearing it apart).

     

    There's more depth than seems to be explored as often as it should, which can be a bummer. I guess because again, the stereotype of hippies when really they whole forest could be more like... a chaotic good to chaotic neutral entity that will leave you alone, will help you when it suits its purposes and will just as easily take advantage of a moment of weakness or hunt you down for whatever reason it deems worthy.

  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    Anyone who tries to touch me gets shouted at. I enjoy making the snugglers cry.

  • Plus now, you know... treehugging means that the tree is slamming you against their trunk and breaking your bones.

  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    The comments above about Serenwilde also apply to all of the other orgs--there is much more to them than meets the eye, and you'll be surprised by all of the dark secrets each org holds.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • MoiMoi
    edited February 2013
    Some general notes you may find interesting:

    Hallifax's founding document is the Collectivist Manifesto. Which is a very obvious expy of the Communist Manifesto which some differences, such as having a caste system and being focused on Art and Science instead of uplifting the proles.

    Serenwilde is nature untouched by outside influences. How the world was before the Divine Wars, the Taint Wars and all those other wars. Glomdoring is nature torn apart by those same wars then put back together in a way that is stronger in some ways but weaker in others. Both forests can be cruel and harsh, but that's because they're forests.

    Magnagora Nihilism and real life Nihilism have absolutely nothing to do with each other. It's called that because the naming scheme in the Old Celestine Empire went "Foo-ilism is the skill developed by mages studying Foo on the Foo Plane." To Celestialism from Celestia, Fatalism from the Fates, Elementalism from the Elements and Nihilism from Nil.

    Celest has a redemption-based message, where the world used to be awesome but now it's bad, but if you do obey the Supernals, the badness will go away and the world can become awesome again. Nihilism is salvation-based. Things were bad and still are bad, but if you obey the Demon Lords, they will transform you into something strong enough to overcome the inherent badness of the world and become awesome yourself.
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    Serenwilde believes that using magic of the higher planes (elemental and cosmic) is dangerous and reckless, and that we should stick to ethereal sources of magic. We're not just about the forest, we like hills and valleys and mountains and streams and stuff too. Oh, and we have a lot of loboshigaru. They have sharp teeth. And claws. Don't make them angry.

  • Qistrel said:
    Serenwilde believes that using magic of the higher planes (elemental and cosmic) is dangerous and reckless, and that we should stick to ethereal sources of magic. We're not just about the forest, we like hills and valleys and mountains and streams and stuff too. Oh, and we have a lot of loboshigaru. They have sharp teeth. And claws. Don't make them angry.

    From a serens view point:
    I've kinda seen it a bit more as... ethereal is inherently tied to nature, it is part of it and for example the rifts to the ethereal plane exist naturally without any mortal influence... well the nuts were planted and the rifts formed as a result I believe.

    In turn, the elemental planes are where nature breaks down into its more basic essences and they should be naturally connected to the world through the ethereal plane as they are, and the connection to these planes, notably the water plane, enabled the cleansing of the seas or at the very least made it notably easy.

    The issue as I see it, is that the cities are greedy. The elemental planes gave them a power which could be used for the benefit of the natural world but could also just as easily be used against it. And tempted by power they attempted to reach higher vibrations where they located the cosmic planes. One argument could be that the entities there exist naturally within their plane and it is unnatural for them to influence the world beyond it. And even if the powers of the cosmic were not considered to be against the natural world, the nature of the mortals that were seeking these powers present the danger. These natures that lead the city dwellers to trying to go higher in search of even greater powers, ignoring the wisdom and warnings of the spirits. 

    Two forests were lost and various lands have been tainted with the essence of a soulless god, all because of the greed of the cities.


    And rambling...
  • Saran said:
    Qistrel said:
    Serenwilde believes that using magic of the higher planes (elemental and cosmic) is dangerous and reckless, and that we should stick to ethereal sources of magic. We're not just about the forest, we like hills and valleys and mountains and streams and stuff too. Oh, and we have a lot of loboshigaru. They have sharp teeth. And claws. Don't make them angry.

    From a serens view point:
    I've kinda seen it a bit more as... ethereal is inherently tied to nature, it is part of it and for example the rifts to the ethereal plane exist naturally without any mortal influence... well the nuts were planted and the rifts formed as a result I believe.

    In turn, the elemental planes are where nature breaks down into its more basic essences and they should be naturally connected to the world through the ethereal plane as they are, and the connection to these planes, notably the water plane, enabled the cleansing of the seas or at the very least made it notably easy.

    The issue as I see it, is that the cities are greedy. The elemental planes gave them a power which could be used for the benefit of the natural world but could also just as easily be used against it. And tempted by power they attempted to reach higher vibrations where they located the cosmic planes. One argument could be that the entities there exist naturally within their plane and it is unnatural for them to influence the world beyond it. And even if the powers of the cosmic were not considered to be against the natural world, the nature of the mortals that were seeking these powers present the danger. These natures that lead the city dwellers to trying to go higher in search of even greater powers, ignoring the wisdom and warnings of the spirits. 

    Two forests were lost and various lands have been tainted with the essence of a soulless god, all because of the greed of the cities.


    And rambling...
    Blame Celest, they did it.
  • edited February 2013
    Iytha said:

    Serenwilde is nature untouched by outside influences. How the world was before the Divine Wars, the Taint Wars and all those other wars. Glomdoring is nature torn apart by those same wars then put back together in a way that is stronger in some ways but weaker in others. Both forests can be cruel and harsh, but that's because they're forests.


    What did the Taint to do Glomdoring? What are the differences specifically?
  • It seems to me that both Gaudiguch and Magnagora run on the use and abuse of power on a daily basis though. That is generally what I call evil... am I right in thinking that about them?
  • Alethia said:
    It seems to me that both Gaudiguch and Magnagora run on the use and abuse of power on a daily basis though. That is generally what I call evil... am I right in thinking that about them?

    Being the Warlord of Gaudiguch, I may be a bit biased, but that is essentially the opposite of what Gaudiguch is about.  Gaudiguch is about being free to do as you please, so long as it does not encroach upon the freedom of another.  We have One Law, and that is Love, and you may not do anything that may prevent that love.

    Hallifax is all about rules, so I'd put them closer in relation government-wise to Magnagora than Gaudiguch.

    Not to say that people haven't used and abused power in Gaudiguch, but that also happens everywhere else.

  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Alethia said:
    It seems to me that both Gaudiguch and Magnagora run on the use and abuse of power on a daily basis though. That is generally what I call evil... am I right in thinking that about them?
    (Warning: this poster rambles incessently)

    It depends on your definition of "Abuse of power". In my opinion, Magnagora is merely trying to take something bad that happened to them, and run with it. As odd as it sounds, I've always equated Magnagora and the Taint as some sort of Ghouls from the Fallout games. They know they're irradiated, they wouldn't have it any other way, they'll fight you to keep their way of life, and they'll spread it if they can. 

    Every org thinks their way is the best way. You say Celest is "good at being decent", but why punish Viscanti citizens because they came out of the Portal as a viscanti? Illithoid aren't inherently evil any more than a merian or an elf, so why ban them just because a Soulless Goddess half-splintered and made them? Should you really punish someone for something their "Mother" did? 

    Celest and every other city can convert the "fae", or nature spirits, into their counterparts (angels, demons, whatnot". Sometime when you're on faethorn, find one of the brownies or other creatures and ask them about Celestia.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Shaddus said:
    Alethia said:
    It seems to me that both Gaudiguch and Magnagora run on the use and abuse of power on a daily basis though. That is generally what I call evil... am I right in thinking that about them?
    (Warning: this poster rambles incessently)

    It depends on your definition of "Abuse of power". In my opinion, Magnagora is merely trying to take something bad that happened to them, and run with it. As odd as it sounds, I've always equated Magnagora and the Taint as some sort of Ghouls from the Fallout games. They know they're irradiated, they wouldn't have it any other way, they'll fight you to keep their way of life, and they'll spread it if they can. 

    Every org thinks their way is the best way. You say Celest is "good at being decent", but why punish Viscanti citizens because they came out of the Portal as a viscanti? Illithoid aren't inherently evil any more than a merian or an elf, so why ban them just because a Soulless Goddess half-splintered and made them? Should you really punish someone for something their "Mother" did? 

    Celest and every other city can convert the "fae", or nature spirits, into their counterparts (angels, demons, whatnot". Sometime when you're on faethorn, find one of the brownies or other creatures and ask them about Celestia.
    Psht. In Celest's defense, viscanti are a product of the Taint and are themselves tainted, and illithoid are certainly inherently corrupt. 'Evil' is always relative, but to say the illithoid, as a race, want to release Illith and feed themselves to her is a pretty accurate statement. Knowing the corruptive and infectious nature of the Soulless essence, Celest's stances regarding those two races is pretty understandable. I think Serenwilde has similar beliefs, as well. It's nice to broadly write off everything as just being a free-thinking individual, but recognizing that certain races are heavily pre-disposed to a certain nature is all a part of the roleplay (for every organization).

    That said, Celest does have light undertones of racism. Not in the sense of Jim Crowe but that they have always had a sense of merians being the 'superior race' - and understandably so. They were the first race to raise a Vernal God, raised the majority of the most powerful and of the Nine (d'Varsha, Juliana, Dionamus) and built an Empire that spanned more than half a millenia. They don't look down their gills at other races, though - it's simply a serene recognition that they believe themselves the better race, and a sense of duty and responsibility to care for those less fortunate than themselves. They're still mortal, though, and so are flawed - and aren't immune to bad eggs.

    Not a good thing or a bad thing, but that's just how they were/are, as a broad racial statement.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    Really should sticky this. It's good information that I know has given me a better understanding of the various orgs. 
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    edited February 2013
    Yeah, we're the same as Celest with regard to illithoids. Not allowed. We do, however, allow viscanti. Now, I think most Serenwilders are very suspicious of and unfriendly towards viscanti, so you'd have to be able to put up with that in order to play one. Masala has managed to do it, though. (I did too, my original character was a viscanti Seren, but I made the mistake of joining Glom when it was released only to find out that I really did not like it (sorry guys, it's me, not you), so I started over again with Qistrel.)

  • I never really saw Mag as being evil. It is about empowering yourself, transforming yourself into something better and stronger. It's about going places other's fear to tread in order to reach that goal.

    If in that pursuit you need to club some baby seals, then, you know, these things happen.

    For example we don't have any trade bans. If an enemy wants to give you money, you are stronger for taking it. But it's not chaos either, conduct is pretty well regulated, at least in the city. Mayhem outside the city walls isn't usually something the city would bother to address.

    Basically, if you are stronger for doing it and doesn't harm the city, then go nuts.

    image
  • Alethia said:
    What did the Taint to do Glomdoring? What are the differences specifically?
    Originally, Glomdoring was called Gloriana and was protected by Mother Night and Brother Raven. Night was a close ally of Moon and Lake (the other two great spirits called upon by the wiccan covens) and hated Father Sun, the corrupted spirit that lived in the Sun and forever chased Night around the vault of heaven. Raven was the Trickster, like Coyote in real life. Wise, powerful, but always doing things because they're funny rather than because they make sense. The forest was a monarchy, ruled by the King and Queen of the Summer Court, Brennan Stormcrow and Rowena Nightshade.

    When Cosmic Hope went through, the Taint cloud burst out of the nexus in Magnagora and was spotted by Glorianan observers. The Raven Circle, under King Brennan set up demenses along the border and Rowena called upon Night and the Fae to protect the forest, but Nintoba, the leader of the Centaur tribe of Gloriana fled northwest to Serenwilde and urged the elfen in the forest to do the same. They didn't do so.

    The entire Summer Court was killed and revived as undead, Brennan and Rowena as intelligent liches and the other nobles as mindless skeletons. The spiders in the forest grew giant, the vines awakened into Thorn Beasts, the earth itself into Loamadores and so forth. Raven lost an eye, sprouted an extra pair of wings and started calling himself Crow, Master of Death. Night was possessed by Kethuru and ordered Rowena to start pillaging Faethorn to feed the Soulless. When they fae would call out "D’or glom!" (fae for "have mercy!") she yelled out "F’ai glomdoring!" ("I have no mercy!") and that's how the forest got renamed. They also abducted Gib Gladheart, the High Druid of Ackleberry, and turned him into the Ebonglom Wyrm, a gigantic intelligent worm that fed on taint.

    Then Kethuru was knocked out of Time by the loss of Gaudiguch and Hallifax. Night was no longer possessed, but remained cruel and vain and wished to continue on with her plan of taking over the Basin for Glomdoring. This continued on for about two centuries, with Glomdoring becoming a full fledged commune, the Shadowdancers and Blacktalon being established, the forest taking overvillages, etc. But then in the year 133 CE, the Elder Goddessses Isune and Viravain worked together to transform the taint in Glomdoring into something else. Isune tried to make it more beautiful and friendly while Viravain tried to make it more powerful and potent. The result is the Glomdoring you see today. Beautiful, cruel, powerful, rotten, convinced that it is better than unaugmented nature and obsessed with world domination.
  • Thank you everyone :) It has been very interesting so far.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    I've never seen Magnagora as inherently evil, more without a moral compass and a "the end justifies the means" philosophy. Reflected in the way the traitor twelve were, they have ultimately good intentions (the domination and defeat of the Soulless) but their methods are beyond moral reasoning.

    They're not evil, they're just willing to do the things others can't, or won't.


    I see a lot of grey areas in each of the organisations within the basin, there's no real "black and white" or "good and evil."

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • Things are all grey from an OOC perspective, but from an IC perspective, things are mostly black and white. For most orgs, "white" is the "us" and "black" is the "others". I think it's more fun to find out about these things in-game, but Lusternia is such a huge world with a huge backstory, that this kind of summary helps newbies get into the game without getting overwhelmed.

    There're certainly lots of philosophical arguments that can be had about orgs, their purpose, their nature, and their justifications for their actions, and it's unlikely any one answer can be lauded as the one correct answer. There are some underlying storyline and plot hooks that give orgs and org philosophy their uniqueness and their structure, but interpreting this and expressing this is part of the fun.

  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark Australia
    You should ask characters for their opinions on the different orgs, those in them and out of them! I'm sure you'll get some interesting and varied responses.



  • So let me see if I got this right now...

    Celest is like the Catholic Church 2.0 with all of it's grace and failings

    Serenwilde are a bunch of eco-terrorists

    Gaudiguch would vote for Ron Paul

    Magnagora is extreme lazzi-fare economics with a touch of BDSM and a touch of schizotypal personality disorder for flavor

    Glomdoring needs to be featured on You're Cut Off! and also needs to check in for therapy for anti-social personality disorder

    Hallifax has OCD and is trying to prove to itself that it is tasteful and intelligent

    Might as well try and offend everyone at once :P
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    In a terribly inaccurate nutshell, yes. Ron Paul is a racist old man, whereas Gaudiguch doesn't care what race you are. 

    Hallifax isn't really OCD, they're just extremely by the book. Communism Central, where sacrificing one person to save the collective is acceptable, and the caste system is strictly adhered to, in principle.

    Glomdoring is all about itself, plain and simple. If it will help Glomdoring advance, it will play along. If it won't, it doesn't. Nothing matters but Glomdoring. Nothing.

    Celest is roughly correct, and is prone to cliques and people basically doing what they want "For the Light". 

    Serenwilde isn't full of  terrorists. They basically want to be left alone, and hate cities.

    Magnagora is also somewhat correct, but there's also a lot of rank-pulling. Much like Hallifax, people at the bottom aren't worth much unless they can contribute to the advancement of the city (or they're related to someone). They don't worship Kethuru, or the Soulless.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Well i'm glad I was trying to be more funny than accurate then.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    It's kind of difficult to boil down the orgs in such a way that they can fit into one or two sentences. There is really a lot to each, and many facets on how things are viewed from guild to guild, and from individual to individual. 

    Glomdoring is a withdrawn, xenophobic society. Generally speaking, Glomdoring sees the world as one of two things. Glomdoring and not Glomdoring. To Hallifax, Gaudiguch may represent dangerous, uncontrollable chaos, while Glomdoring in broad political terms doesn't care to distinguish them from each other. It's just drunken, high not Glomdoring and floating obnoxious bureaucratic not Glomdoring. The interesting part is that Glomdoring is somewhat of an abstract idea that can be explained with a lot of hyper religious rhetoric, but it's a bit more difficult to pin down than the tenets of say Celest or Serenwilde. There's change, subtlety, wrath, mercilessness, beauty, etc etc but none of that really explains the amalgam that is Glomdoring. Glomdoring just is, and the rest of Lusternia is not. There are a lot of perceptions about Glomdoring within the basin, but the important point to remember about Glomdoring is that Glomdoring doesn't care. While every org is out for themselves, they (to a degree) try to justify their beliefs and actions. Glomdoring does not. Celest might say the undead must be cleansed because they are dangerous vessels of the taint that. Glomdoring will just say they did it because they are Glomdoring.. It's a bit brain washy and over zealous, and pretty collectivist in nature. FOr the most part, Glomdoring avoids a hierarchy other than when it's necessary, they aren't overly fond of titles (with a notable exception that I will explain) and generally speaking, one servant has no more value than the next. Within Glomdoring, the guilds are really different. The Shadowdancers, whom I love, are a bit secular and divergent in the typical "all equal under the Wyrd" belief system of Glomdoring. They believe the Queen is the sole authority within the Coven, they are not elected, rather they are chosen by Mother Night herself that the Coven "elects" out of tradition, but it's basically rule by divine right. They won't ever say it publicly, or even among themselves, but there is a definite sense of superiority, that they are -chosen- by Mother Night to serve within her kingdom, and everyone else picked their guilds, and the blacktalon should learn how to bathe. They are a bit self delusional, but it works for followers of Mother Night who can be a bit nuts herself. It's kind of "we're all equal, I'm just more equal than you." The Glomdoring kind of tolerates them because Mother Night is such an important part of Glomdoring, and Mother Night herself favors her Coven above the rest.

    I could ramble on, but that kind of touches on my perspective of my corner of the world.
    image
  • edited February 2013
    I'm pretty sure Serenwilde is full of eco-terrorists. What else do you call the willful and deliberate annihilation of an entire culture in hopes the forests will be the only ones left?  >:)
  • Eventru said:
    I'm pretty sure Serenwilde is full of eco-terrorists. What else do you call the willful and deliberate annihilation of an entire culture in hopes the forests will be the only ones left?  >:)
    After project cosmic hope? Sensible.
  • edited February 2013
    Turns out, I never learned how to quote things. How embarrassing..but in response to Iytha's post...
    I don't know where you got this information, but a lot of it seems....slightly off. Raven was never (to my knowledge) associated with being a trickster. Really, they called Raven "Wise Raven" and he seemed (to me) to be a much more benign entity, it's Crow that really took over the "Trickster" label, and that, only peripherally to his general "deathiness" (in so far as he has panned out to this point) As well, "master of death" (Which is different from the deathiness I mentioned above - it's complicated) seems somewhat iffy for Crow as a moniker as we've never really focused overly much on control of the undead, or much on death as a state of being outside of Dark Spirit (see following). The Dark Spirits (that we got from Serenwilde - thanx gaiz) tend to be more associated with Crow's Dark Spirit, which is more of a mindset, internal thing, at least as I've come to understand it. Gloriana never seemed to me to be a monarchy at all, Rowena was High Priestess of the Night Coven, Brennan was High Druid of the Raven Circle - Yes, she calls him her Summer King at one point, but I think that's more of a term of endearment. To my knowledge no commune has ever been monarchy-based, the modern Shadowdancers being the only exception, and that doesn't really have anything to do with monarchies in the traditional sense.
  • Astraea said:
    Turns out, I never learned how to quote things. How embarrassing..but in response to Iytha's post...
    I don't know where you got this information, but a lot of it seems....slightly off. Raven was never (to my knowledge) associated with being a trickster. Really, they called Raven "Wise Raven" and he seemed (to me) to be a much more benign entity, it's Crow that really took over the "Trickster" label, and that, only peripherally to his general "deathiness" (in so far as he has panned out to this point) As well, "master of death" (Which is different from the deathiness I mentioned above - it's complicated) seems somewhat iffy for Crow as a moniker as we've never really focused overly much on control of the undead, or much on death as a state of being outside of Dark Spirit (see following). The Dark Spirits (that we got from Serenwilde - thanx gaiz) tend to be more associated with Crow's Dark Spirit, which is more of a mindset, internal thing, at least as I've come to understand it. Gloriana never seemed to me to be a monarchy at all, Rowena was High Priestess of the Night Coven, Brennan was High Druid of the Raven Circle - Yes, she calls him her Summer King at one point, but I think that's more of a term of endearment. To my knowledge no commune has ever been monarchy-based, the modern Shadowdancers being the only exception, and that doesn't really have anything to do with monarchies in the traditional sense.
    Raven definitely had the label of Trickster - I recall it being commented on when Viravain first showed up (a very long time ago). They were harmless tricks and pranks with a mischievous nature - Crow is far more malicious in his tricks.
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