Are we going to pretend that some of this wasn’t trolly? After the event was over there was a TQ and one of the very vocal people here debated and sent clearly troll emotes after I sat and got shattered. But sure, let’s pretend this is all RP and nothing else.
In other thoughts: Would anyone be seriously dismayed if the SMOB raiding just went away entirely? It has come up before. I personally have no objections. The time to fix it (and effort) is way out of proportion to what it takes to kill them in general.
I really don't see any better solution than this. It's a mechanic that could theoretically be fun but in practice isn't for most people.
Xenthos said: For future reference, Divine Mandate of the room and a "Leave. Now. Lest I slay you all" warning before relaxing the Mandate could work too and avoid the appearance of just GodSmiting things. I'm not sure she had time to consider that in this case because we were just suddenly there.
I don't think it's really fair to tell a god what they should have done differently in response to circumstances that they probably didn't anticipate completely, when you don't have perfect knowledge either of the event. People take the best option they see available, even if retrospectively plenty others will tell them that they were obviously wrong. I don't know the context of the Regat-killing, but from what I heard/saw, her actions seemed reasonable for what was happening.
Isn't that... exactly what I said? Specifically the very last sentence in what you quoted states that sentiment outright. The rest of the post defends her right to do what she did (mostly).
Eh, power loss can be a big deal too. It would be a bit better if they regenerated on their own, though. I sort of like the idea of a time frame behind it, if there was something to do(on both sides) during it that wasn't just 'stand here for x amount of time'.
I don't know if the event was one-sided or not, I don't get the impression that Maylea's order had any more information beforehand than Nocht's did.
Power loss is really not a big deal, the perception of 'losing' might be for some but we can churn out ascendants like butter and orgs still don't know what to do with all the power they gain. The regeneration and the not having it damage the necromate and skills is a solution for the big grind that normally follows a smob raid which has often been said to be the true grievance with them dying. And I think none of us will be too upset that we can't take down the org protective shields (outside prolonged assault of rl months it is impossible anyway)
Glomdoring's been in an event desert for RL years, so of course we're going to show up when there's something in the offing (I think our last Glom related event was guildhalls opening).
This is incorrect.
Which one am I overlooking? It is quite possible that I am, but even Ascension events the last couple of years largely skipped Glom (excepting for being "part of the Basin in general"). We had the greev and old guilds dying, we had Baeroc Spineson 2 Ascensions ago who showed up, did a tapestry, and peaced out (we are still waiting for the resolution on that), and we had new guildhalls, to my recollection.
In other thoughts: Would anyone be seriously dismayed if the SMOB raiding just went away entirely? It has come up before. I personally have no objections. The time to fix it (and effort) is way out of proportion to what it takes to kill them in general.
I am even for making killing them an entirely RP kind of thing with 0 negative effects and 0 positive effects. Though I still think they should remain killeable. Just get rid of the consequences
Yes, I very much trolled by trying to draw attention away from Maylea’s Godrealm that her friend Lief is an Avatar of. I also trolled by sitting outside of Nocht’s godrealm to infiltrate Afollia to relay information to my ally combat clan and warn them about the next wave of Glomdoring that came five minutes after I announced it. Please rest your arms, they must hurt from reaching.
Xenthos said: For future reference, Divine Mandate of the room and a "Leave. Now. Lest I slay you all" warning before relaxing the Mandate could work too and avoid the appearance of just GodSmiting things. I'm not sure she had time to consider that in this case because we were just suddenly there.
I don't think it's really fair to tell a god what they should have done differently in response to circumstances that they probably didn't anticipate completely, when you don't have perfect knowledge either of the event. People take the best option they see available, even if retrospectively plenty others will tell them that they were obviously wrong. I don't know the context of the Regat-killing, but from what I heard/saw, her actions seemed reasonable for what was happening.
Isn't that... exactly what I said? Specifically the very last sentence in what you quoted states that sentiment outright. The rest of the post defends her right to do what she did (mostly).
Mostly.
Given that my mostly refers to Regat specifically, and you had no opinion on that part, I guess we are in full agreement.
I do think that Lief is overworried about the "zap resentment" in general. There are other options a God can use but looking up how to do them mid spam is not so easy.
Let's disable smob raiding, sprinkle in a few other smobs around the game time permitting. People like challenging stuff, but the mechanics of these are pretty harsh to the defenders. And they way they are set up, they can't die if there is a decent defending force around so you are compelled to attack them at the worst possible time for engagement purposes. All-around it is not fun for the people who have to pick up the pieces.
Esoneyuna said: Power loss is really not a big deal, the perception of 'losing' might be for some but we can churn out ascendants like butter and orgs still don't know what to do with all the power they gain. The regeneration and the not having it damage the necromate and skills is a solution for the big grind that normally follows a smob raid which has often been said to be the true grievance with them dying. And I think none of us will be too upset that we can't take down the org protective shields (outside prolonged assault of rl months it is impossible anyway)
That still means power loss can be a big deal to some. There are circumstances where I can imagine it being a huge deal, like if an org supermob was attacked immediately after an ascendant is raised, leaving little power left. Now, most orgs may opt not to do that, but the possibility exists and is entirely reasonable(under current mechanics) to do this.
Given that, my question is, "what does this conflict mechanism add to the game?" Does it increase the amount of pk/rp, lead to interesting questing possibilities? No, to all three. If the odds favour the attackers to even try this, they're not likely to get much pk at all.
And... yeah, the fact that the only way to take down shields is to engage in rl months of griefy behavior just further suggests it's a bad mechanic that encourages bad behavior.
(Mostly unrelated reminder to turn the mob the cyaethl colony quest spawns into a (non-aggro) smob so a: people have something to hit and b: it ever actually dies and people can do the quest again)
Xenthos said: Given that my mostly refers to Regat specifically, and you had no opinion on that part, I guess we are in full agreement.
I don't agree with that.
Let's disable smob raiding, sprinkle in a few other smobs around the game time permitting. People like challenging stuff, but the mechanics of these are pretty harsh to the defenders. And they way they are set up, they can't die if there is a decent defending force around so you are compelled to attack them at the worst possible time for engagement purposes. All-around it is not fun for the people who have to pick up the pieces.
And as I understand it, Mayleans got ordermobs out of this event. Isn't serenwilde all about cycles and growth, life turning into death and then life again? Your peacock laid eggs, and then died like some kind of metaphorical phoenix of sorts, and you're sad about it instead of rping it out.
As someone who plays a character in Maylea's order, I wanted to say something in response to this! I hope it's not too tangential.
The event on our side was us RPing it out. My character Lief is devastated, as she believes the taking of Shashi's life is not in any way a reasonable response to the theft of an item and the conflict between those two gods. Maylea started it, but Lief has reasons for thinking Maylea's actions were warranted and the shape of the retaliation not. Whether those reasons hold water OOC for reasonable people doesn't matter because we don't have OOC gods with centuries-long+ grudges actively involving their pawns/worshipers in their interpersonal conflicts like in Greek times, so it's hard to have a basis of reasonable comparison there. And RPwise, it's a fun stance for me to take with her!
OOC, the only issues I personally had were the lead up, where so much PvP was happening in the godrealm that I was initially scared to get involved when it was time to get involved, and the way that some people seemed to think it was unfair that Maylea expressed her grief by killing them - after they successfully killed Feyr - because they thought Feyr/Lief (and Jarel I guess, though I didn't see when he entered) vs their ten was a fair go. I know that wasn't the universal attitude from the raiding side, but it bothers me that there are those who felt that way OOC and I think that's what this thread is for discussing.
I'm not upset the event happened! And I'm not upset by how the event happened. I thought it was really cool personally that things came full circle in a way with Rancoura, and I think the event makes the beast we now get infinitely more meaningful than randomly getting a cool new option and that's that. I'm even glad it was announced ahead of time because I might not have rearranged my day to be able to make it without a heads up otherwise. I'm sad OOC too because Shashi was such a delightful character, and we won't get to RP with him anymore, but it was really, really great storytelling that causes me to be sad about that.
RP is 100% happening!
The lead up was actually caused by your side though, you guys raided Glomdoring, they responded. Do you really expect them to go oh well we'll just let that slide. She also killed someone after Feyr -declared- them and killed them so oocly that was just WTF. I think what happened with the zappings there should never allowed and this is a textbook example of not giving the other side a fair go at an event that involves them. You have some world emotes about their god being robbed, you have a lead up of hey this event is going down tonight, and then when it is time for the conclusion it was just a hey glom yeah you are not invited you will just have to deal with being spectators. I think that kind of thing is actually far more damaging to Lusternia then anything else.
I'm sorry that happened in the lead up! What I'm aware of happening is this:
Lief started influencing godrealm mobs, and then got invited to watch a really awesome Hallifax play (<3). After the play finished, she went back to influencing mobs, and then Xenthos entered to raid as people sometimes do to one another. Lief let Serenwilde know, and another member of Maylea's order, Pysynne, came to defend while Lief continued to influence. Things escalated from there.
There was no communication about a raid on our side, so I'm not sure how "you guys raided" is a thing, and I'm not sure when it happened in the timeline of the above which drove me out of the godrealm in the lead up. I know one person attacked and killed a Glomdoring mob (though Lief didn't know about this happening at all), and I found out after the fact, mostly through the posts here.
What would have made the raiding side happy instead of Maylea killing them? I can't envision another outcome with the people online besides their ideal outcome being "we kill people while their god watches and then we take over the event with a god who won't attack people much smaller than them"? I don't see another way for Maylea's order to have been allowed to participate at all beyond what happened, but I could be wrong? Maybe some people in the party would have been eager to RP it out, and I think that could have been really cool...but the raiding party came in with guns blazing. People entered and immediately attacked.
Please note I am not blaming any player, and even don't mean to blame the divine that did this event, I am just venting frustrations and showing my side of the looking glass in the hopes maybe in a next event they can consider different approaches. As to what she could have done, Xenthos already said, put down a divine mandate, threathen the opposing force. Gods have also been known to fling entire groups onto astral, or the astral rock, or in a beard for a few minutes to remind the mortals of their power.
A zap is really the -least- cool way to deal with a big group. It is fine for individuals that keep going at it though. But I acknowledge that this might have been unexpected to the player behind the divine and they slightly panicked or just were so focused on getting a good event out they didn't think about the alternates, or did not have any alternates setup.
edit:
Actually I think I should mention this cause due to typing this between work assignments I am probably coming over a lot meaner then I should and being very unfair to the divine who put a lot of work in. I absolutely adore Maylea and Czixi (and many other divine!) and had great interactions with them on alts and with Czixi even with Esoneyuna who at one point wanted to join her order. They are very great people, and their committent to the game is great, they make great stories and some of my anger is obviously jealousy cause I have been focusing on Gaudiguch and not getting to sip the cool aide. I also want to point out if I complain about no RP gods in gaudi I do not intent to jab at the gods we do have, coding and designing are a big part of divine and often you guys don't get to tell us we made this while we enjoy your areas. So while my comments lack tact do know you are great people and we only complain cause we care.
Is it not possible to look at the player demo metrics and see what time/day on average the populations between the two alliances are most equal and force events at that time?
I would also like to circle back to something earlier. I think we as a community are too quick to label things as trolly. For example, using infiltrate is not trolly. It is what the skill is designed for! Getting someone to come hang out with you where you can infiltrate them is their choice (the target could have gone inside, or attacked when declared upon).
At the same time, if you are caught doing so, expect consequences / reactions. You are putting yourself in a situation where people are going to want to respond in some fashion (and once the declare has worn off, Prime responses are limited).
Neither side seems particularly trolly to me, it required people knowingly shouldering risks.
Synl said: Is it not possible to look at the player demo metrics and see what time/day on average the populations between the two alliances are most equal and force events at that time?
It should be possible to do this, or to wait to have events when there's a relatively equal number on both sides. But, not really fair to say that admin need to be available when that's true(since they might not be and they are volunteers). Leaving the announcement vague is probably the best way.
Synl said: Is it not possible to look at the player demo metrics and see what time/day on average the populations between the two alliances are most equal and force events at that time?
It should be possible to do this, or to wait to have events when there's a relatively equal number on both sides. But, not really fair to say that admin need to be available when that's true(since they might not be and they are volunteers). Leaving the announcement vague is probably the best way.
This 100 times, especially if it’s an order/org specific event.
I'll throw in my support for disabling smob raiding, abso-fucking-lutely. The amount of times I've had to restrain myself from lending aid and just PKing in general because of the very real fear of Master Crystals getting farmed has gone on too long.
I will also note that I have refrained from joining on Crystal raids because there is no effective response Hallifax has to us burying the things repeatedly. They could... bash fleshpots? That does not impact Celest or Glom much. Better to just pretend that they don't exist for fairness (at which point one has to wonder why even let them exist at all).
I'm glad someone decided to start a thread about this! If anything, it gives me things to consider when planning future events.
Timing on events usually ends up boiling down to when involved parties will be available. Work has been insane the last few weeks, and so I'm probably limiting things even more than usual. That being said, it's not like we're against adjusting times. We, of course, want the greatest amount of participation from -both- orgs possible.
With regards to announcing the time on Twitter, we know there are players who are invested in the story and would want to be present when it progresses. It would seem unfair to expect them to just linger around an entire weekend in hopes of catching it. As much as I love Lusternia, I definitely don't have that time, myself. Trying to obfuscate when something will happen in hopes that certain people just won't be there seems like a poor solution to me, personally. How strongly do you feel that would help?
While big mechanical changes are great to discuss, I'm very interested in any changes you guys think we can do on a smaller scale to make things more fun for everyone.
The only reason Magnagora was sending people to help Serenwilde was because there
was literally no one else around to try to even balance numbers. Even
then, we were being told that it wasn't necessary because there was no
way we could counter it smartly without heavy losses.
No matter the justification: "Glomdoring is allied with Celest, so it was okay to raid Magnagora due to two people assisting Serenwilde," or "Two people against sixteen raided the realm after 2 hours of PVP, the audacity." Just doesn't cut it for me. The blanketed RP justification is thin, considering our community can simply not support your numbers raiding.
Our justification for helping was not because we were invested in Maylea, though, Maylea's
Realm didn't deserve that. Our justification again, for helping was that Maylea and Serenwilde had no one else to help and support them. I felt badly
for Maylea and Nocht who had to work around this, and even though I
loved the idea of the event, I was astounded at the behaviour that felt
not only OOC, but without a sense of self-awareness.
Those
who are in this opposite alliance should really look into our perspective
without being condescending, cruel, and frankly blinded by what seems to
be a generic hatred of the collective "you." This continuation of "try
harder," and "just step off the Megalith we have 10 people
one-person-I'm-shouting-at," is just ridiculous. Even after many
discussions, we still have to return to it because the behaviour and
perspectives of those around have simply not changed.
We
know we can't win, and yet you still want to win, so you do that. We
will let you, because obviously you want a conflict we can't win. We
have said this before, over and over again. And you still seem to go at
it with guns blazing like we even have a chance, you even act like it and then belittle us for it. You seem to justify
anything you desire, in order to make this behavior the norm, and to
make it palatable for those of us opposite to just accept. Again,
self-awareness is lacking, as is empathy outside of the IG doctrine of "No Mercy."
It would be more
interesting if things were even, and we could fight. Those occasions are
fun for me. But to stand there alone, and watch you kill smobs, and
having people clear realms and influence demons, because I know you're
coming to beat up on us - Is just not fun. It's exhausting for those of us who are told the same things over and over in discussions like these that continue to appear this year and the end of the last.
If you really want in-depth RP, engage with people outside of a
situation where you know you can dominate, engage meaningfully, like
Lief and Maylea. Hell, I would love to be engaged meaningfully for PVP that is backed by true RP.
Put aside the vitriol. Once again, people have forgotten what that does to us. Our community will continue to shrink, and what will be left is an empty victory for those people.
The cool night-time breeze shivers in the arid caress of the streets of the capital city, brushing the earthen taste of dust across your lips.
*
A blessed silence falls upon the city for the moment, most activity confined to the towers and the theatre due to the snowy weather.
*
Pinprick points of light twinkle in the deep black overhead, their brightness full of a cold, hungering malice.
I will also note that I have refrained from joining on Crystal raids because there is no effective response Hallifax has to us burying the things repeatedly. They could... bash fleshpots? That does not impact Celest or Glom much. Better to just pretend that they don't exist for fairness (at which point one has to wonder why even let them exist at all).
We have to get our spinny boys from somewhere
Edit: Oops, I thought this was a different thread.
From the other side of the fence from Serenwilde, but once having been in their position:
If you have events pitting a big org against a small one, in which the event requires raiding the smaller org, consider proactive things that the defenders could do as well. For example, there was no way to save Shashi vs. those forces, but they could have been sent to run past the invaders and scoop up eggs. Actively saving the things. Even if they died, the deaths have meaning (that is what carried me through the swarms of old events at least). How meaningful might it be to hatch the egg that you personally saved from the ravening hordes?
Could even have opened a portal into the Realm bypassing the big clot at the entrance where Shashi was.
I do think that taking disparity of forces into account is a good idea. It can be used to make things more personal / poignant, or to level the playing field by doing things that are slightly less "compare size of forces" when that makes sense to do.
I personally really like knowing when to be around.
While big mechanical changes are great to discuss, I'm very interested in any changes you guys think we can do on a smaller scale to make things more fun for everyone.
Disable smob raiding. It's not really a big mechanical change or even a strain on coding resources. Removes the onus on players feeling like they can't act due to retribution, saves a fucking SOUL CRUSHING process to raise them up and recharge your shield (or god forbid, rezz your shield), addresses the discrepancy between Spheres/Fleshpots and Avatars (Glomdoring and Serenwilde can basically ignore the possibility of smob interaction happening on their planes).
Alternatively, make recovery a lot less soul crushing.
Fundamentally it's a design problem. No amount of "you just need an attitude adjustment" leveled at the winning OR losing side will manage the problem. Clearly, that's been the solution for years and years now and here we are again. Raiding and conflict need to be designed interactions. Hands off moderation of player behavior fundamentally does NOT work because it's chasing an ideal that doesn't exist, of the natural and organic growth of behavior free from interference. I include the Avenger mechanic in this, it's fundamentally a dodge around having to actually deal with problems in the game.
Lusternia needs solid, modern, and intentional raid mechanics. Pretty much end of story. Not patches that "discourage" certain types of behavior or take a roundabout method to softcap runaway victories and harmful activity. Direct mechanics that address the problem in a straightforwards and absolute manner. It's the difference between a progressive xp loss on death in enemy territory, which really only encourages a group to arrive and camp with MORE overwhelming and unapproachable numbers rather than actually fixing anything, and territory lock outs. If the goal is to stop you camping a plane for too long (as was the case with that change) instead of hoping to discourage campers by hoping they value their xp more than camping the plane just STOP them from camping the plane for too long. Directly. There's no need to take a sideways approach and it's directly harmful.
As long as there's infinite ramp up potential on "raids" the drive will ALWAYS be to only play hard ball when you have an overwhelming force. Sometimes people overcome this and participate anyways, but when push comes to shove there's always a nuclear option and that ultimately is bad for the game.
Comments
You should go back to my statement about not making statements that make you look foolish.
I am even for making killing them an entirely RP kind of thing with 0 negative effects and 0 positive effects. Though I still think they should remain killeable. Just get rid of the consequences
Power loss is really not a big deal, the perception of 'losing' might be for some but we can churn out ascendants like butter and orgs still don't know what to do with all the power they gain. The regeneration and the not having it damage the necromate and skills is a solution for the big grind that normally follows a smob raid which has often been said to be the true grievance with them dying. And I think none of us will be too upset that we can't take down the org protective shields (outside prolonged assault of rl months it is impossible anyway)
That still means power loss can be a big deal to some. There are circumstances where I can imagine it being a huge deal, like if an org supermob was attacked immediately after an ascendant is raised, leaving little power left. Now, most orgs may opt not to do that, but the possibility exists and is entirely reasonable(under current mechanics) to do this.
Given that, my question is, "what does this conflict mechanism add to the game?" Does it increase the amount of pk/rp, lead to interesting questing possibilities? No, to all three. If the odds favour the attackers to even try this, they're not likely to get much pk at all.
And... yeah, the fact that the only way to take down shields is to engage in rl months of griefy behavior just further suggests it's a bad mechanic that encourages bad behavior.
Given that my mostly refers to Regat specifically, and you had no opinion on that part, I guess we are in full agreement.
edit:
Actually I think I should mention this cause due to typing this between work assignments I am probably coming over a lot meaner then I should and being very unfair to the divine who put a lot of work in. I absolutely adore Maylea and Czixi (and many other divine!) and had great interactions with them on alts and with Czixi even with Esoneyuna who at one point wanted to join her order. They are very great people, and their committent to the game is great, they make great stories and some of my anger is obviously jealousy cause I have been focusing on Gaudiguch and not getting to sip the cool aide. I also want to point out if I complain about no RP gods in gaudi I do not intent to jab at the gods we do have, coding and designing are a big part of divine and often you guys don't get to tell us we made this while we enjoy your areas. So while my comments lack tact do know you are great people and we only complain cause we care.
Is it not possible to look at the player demo metrics and see what time/day on average the populations between the two alliances are most equal and force events at that time?
I should also say, I am not tilted at any admin over this. I love Maylea, she is fantastic.
Timing on events usually ends up boiling down to when involved parties will be available. Work has been insane the last few weeks, and so I'm probably limiting things even more than usual. That being said, it's not like we're against adjusting times. We, of course, want the greatest amount of participation from -both- orgs possible.
With regards to announcing the time on Twitter, we know there are players who are invested in the story and would want to be present when it progresses. It would seem unfair to expect them to just linger around an entire weekend in hopes of catching it. As much as I love Lusternia, I definitely don't have that time, myself. Trying to obfuscate when something will happen in hopes that certain people just won't be there seems like a poor solution to me, personally. How strongly do you feel that would help?
While big mechanical changes are great to discuss, I'm very interested in any changes you guys think we can do on a smaller scale to make things more fun for everyone.
theatre due to the snowy weather.
hungering malice.