Endgame Design and Brainstorming

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Comments

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Why?  As long as the instances don't cut you off from CT, it would be no different than someone sitting on Astral.  The point of instances isn't to "empty the game," it would instead be to ensure that people have content available when they are looking for something to do.  Right now if someone is looking for an endgame hunt and all the astral nodes are moted, well... mostly I just see them log off.  Muud and other such places don't really compete with a good Astral bash.
    The point is to make more things for more people to do so they stick around doing them.  Instances are a good way of doing that, at least if they aren't like putting someone in Climanti Past (which is NOT the sort of thing I would be looking for).
    PS: Tying things to aetherspace would seem to do exactly what you are saying you do not want?  When someone goes to aetherspace they are also cut off from CT/GT/clans/etc.  Having everyone off out of contact does not seem ideal to me.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Also, in case it is not obvious: Writing and building whole new areas is a huge time sink, and has been the reasoning behind not introducing more high end content.  Mirroring existing areas alleviates that burden.  The only new things needed are mobs and mechanics at that point.
    I can see what you mean by giving the instance the same name confusing a newbie, so... give it a new name.  The dark moors.  Thornroot's End.  The main goal is to make it so that they are not wasting hundreds of hours building an area out; they could generate multiple areas in a fraction of the time by reusing the hundreds of places that already exist but demigods have moved on from.
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  • edited December 2019
    I would rather have a mobwave type thing, where once you clear an area, tougher mobs would pop up in it, rather than having instanced bashing zones.

    Also, I have mixed feelings about just adding in high level bashing stuff, because I feel like it'll still just be a numbers game - once you have enough artifacts, repeatedly attack and sip health to victory. If new stuff is added, it would be nice if it was done in a way where you had to strategically approach it if you wanted to clear the area.

    Edit again: maybe by having the mobs use tactics/abilities you'd usually only see in pvp? Like.. delayed/percent based instakills, hindering, forced movement of players, focused targeting, split vitals pressure, etc.
  • Tying things to aetherspace would be a compromise IF there had to be instances, in order to avoid the confusion. I would prefer not to have instances. I am assuming that an instance would work like it does in an MMO, with regards to being unable to enter or leave once it has started without ending it. Honestly, I would rather have a system where people can come and go organically without being separated from the gameworld as a whole, however I do see the point about things being hunted out.

    Is there any way to prevent things from being hunted out without instances? If there is, that is where I would rather look.

    As for high-level bashing, I think that it would be interesting to have more involved fights against mobs. Unfortunately, as it stands, these would likely just result in someone making a script to handle it.
  • Xenthos said:
    Feoragan said:
    These are not the endgame mechanics you're looking for.
    You cannot just say this if you give no other ideas.  It is the same as not posting at all.  If you have endgame mechanics in mind (actual end-game mechanics, not a review of other systems) then this is the place to throw them.
    did give other ideas that was perfectly serviceable as endgame content, by the way. (Importantly, they're also not really exclusionary.)

    I agree with Kali, I don't think bashing is engaging at all. It never really has been. Gnome weapons somehow make this worse (though Bashing has always been one ability in Lusternia anyway) by reducing bashing even more to just how much aethergoop you have. 

    Nelras said:
    Tying things to aetherspace would be a compromise IF there had to be instances, in order to avoid the confusion. I would prefer not to have instances. I am assuming that an instance would work like it does in an MMO, with regards to being unable to enter or leave once it has started without ending it. Honestly, I would rather have a system where people can come and go organically without being separated from the gameworld as a whole, however I do see the point about things being hunted out.

    Is there any way to prevent things from being hunted out without instances? If there is, that is where I would rather look.

    As for high-level bashing, I think that it would be interesting to have more involved fights against mobs. Unfortunately, as it stands, these would likely just result in someone making a script to handle it.
    By instances, people probably just mean more timequake type things, I assume?
  • edited December 2019
    Instances could always be tied to an expansion of the domoth realms and the havens themselves, which are otherwise pretty much totally ignored?

    Also it's not like bashing involves player interaction aside from hunting buddies 90% of the time as is, and that other 10% isn't exactly great gameplay anyways. It's a weird no sell point for a bunch of folks, especially with new players consistently being frustrated by crowded/bashed out/oddly resetting starting areas .
  • I could totally get behind content in the havens! (Also keep it free pk thaank you)
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Nelras said:
    Tying things to aetherspace would be a compromise IF there had to be instances, in order to avoid the confusion. I would prefer not to have instances. I am assuming that an instance would work like it does in an MMO, with regards to being unable to enter or leave once it has started without ending it. Honestly, I would rather have a system where people can come and go organically without being separated from the gameworld as a whole, however I do see the point about things being hunted out.

    Is there any way to prevent things from being hunted out without instances? If there is, that is where I would rather look.

    As for high-level bashing, I think that it would be interesting to have more involved fights against mobs. Unfortunately, as it stands, these would likely just result in someone making a script to handle it.
    We're not an MMO so we don't necessarily need to be bound to their conventions.  It could be an instance that stays in existence for a bit after you leave, you can bring friends in, they can leave early, or you could leave and let them finish.  I envision it still letting you stay as part of the world, so you can still talk to people / answer questions.  If someone needs help you can go help them and then pick up where you left off.
    The only other things I can think of to avoid hunting out issues is either super-fast respawns or a person being able to force respawn an area.  The latter leading to potential problems if I go in and respawn the area on you when you are almost done.

    My ideal version of instances would involve ones where the base mob strength (and experience) is the same as an astral hunt with 5 people ("low" difficulty), or 10 people, or 15 people, or 20 people ("high" difficulty).  The area is populated with roaming mobs that can afflict and chase.  It is up to you, the player, to clear them out safely.  This might involve hit&run, or baiting them to follow into a safer place for dispatch.  Waiting for them to roam around to make smaller clusters, and so on.  Ideally the mobs are strong enough that you do not just tab out and genrun the things.
    Add a bit of an exp boost on top to account for the higher danger and the maneuvering tactics.
    Long term I would love to see mobs that incorporate SSC and allow for more moves against them!  That would be really neat.  I don't think it's anything that we can expect in the near future though...
    But if/when it is possible, incorporating more complex mechanics into smobs for groups to go murder together would also be fun.
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  • Xenthos said:
    Also, in case it is not obvious: Writing and building whole new areas is a huge time sink, and has been the reasoning behind not introducing more high end content.  Mirroring existing areas alleviates that burden.  The only new things needed are mobs and mechanics at that point.
    I can see what you mean by giving the instance the same name confusing a newbie, so... give it a new name.  The dark moors.  Thornroot's End.  The main goal is to make it so that they are not wasting hundreds of hours building an area out; they could generate multiple areas in a fraction of the time by reusing the hundreds of places that already exist but demigods have moved on from.
    We have IG reasoning for alternate histories and temporal fuckery. There's no reason this couldn't be a cause for this kind of overlaid or alternate version of a zone. Minimal changes to descriptions and some new mobs and such to make it fun. 
  • I don't really care for new ways to get experience though. Without an objective for me to work towards I just wouldn't bother with the novelty of any new content. You'd just get to the status quo again. That's why I like the level system suggested with perks for achieving it. 
  • I don't think 'not being able to genrun the area' is a good target for difficulty.. I'd much rather even small groups of mobs be able to kill even heavily artied players if they're not dynamically reacting to what those mobs are doing, with more focus on what the player does, than on how many bashing arties they own. it probably could be automated as nelras mentioned, but honestly, everything in this game has at one point or another, and at least it would take more than SM ADD REPEAT.
  • The new level system and rewards, whatever the top of that is, will become the status quo.

    If it's achievable and has high rewards, everyone will do it.
    If it has no rewards and is difficult, people will stop at 100.
    If it's difficult and has high rewards, you'll have a few people who've AFKed bashing in a good hunting area and have an advantage over others who can't be bothered to do it.

    Bashing, I'd say for most people, is a means to an end. Sure, there are a few people who could bash endlessly, and I guess you could cater to them but that's pretty bland and uninspired for literally everybody else involved.

    Rather than bashing for these extra levels, maybe think about interesting/fun quests that involve teamwork etc. to achieve levels? Think outside the box, these could even be things like designing stuff or writing stuff if you wanted to get creative, and make the benefits a bit more interesting than "more bashing stats yay". You're planning on putting time into this anyway.

    Also, extra thing, just throwing this out there, you could force classes other than Wiccan to periodically do quests which take successive IRL hours in order to use certain skills in their skillset, that'll keep people engaged once they're tri-trans.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Kali said:
    I don't think 'not being able to genrun the area' is a good target for difficulty.. I'd much rather even small groups of mobs be able to kill even heavily artied players if they're not dynamically reacting to what those mobs are doing, with more focus on what the player does, than on how many bashing arties they own. it probably could be automated as nelras mentioned, but honestly, everything in this game has at one point or another, and at least it would take more than SM ADD REPEAT.
    Can you please clarify?  It sounds like you are actually agreeing with "not being able to genrun the area" while saying you are disagreeing.  Genrunning is just letting your scripts do the whole thing for you without you having to interact/engage.
    My target for difficulty is one where you are expected to have to do some input/reaction... and it sounds like you're saying the same thing?
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  • Xenthos said:
    Kali said:
    I don't think 'not being able to genrun the area' is a good target for difficulty.. I'd much rather even small groups of mobs be able to kill even heavily artied players if they're not dynamically reacting to what those mobs are doing, with more focus on what the player does, than on how many bashing arties they own. it probably could be automated as nelras mentioned, but honestly, everything in this game has at one point or another, and at least it would take more than SM ADD REPEAT.
    Can you please clarify?  It sounds like you are actually agreeing with "not being able to genrun the area" while saying you are disagreeing.  Genrunning is just letting your scripts do the whole thing for you without you having to interact/engage.
    My target for difficulty is one where you are expected to have to do some input/reaction... and it sounds like you're saying the same thing?
    Someone could make a script to react to the input needed. For example, if you need to interrupt something every so often, you just set a trigger or set your scripts to react to that line and it's all good and you move on with your bashing. It'd honestly have to be something else.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    If the something is (x many mobs come into the room) or (there is a cluster there too large to simply power through) or (the mobs do more damage in a pack so you have to split them via pathing mechanics and good timing), though, you're moving the burden from scripts to player judgement (which, again, was my original stated goal).  Require player reaction to decide on a goal instead of it being all scripts and automation.
    Will some people still try to automate?  Probably, I am not sure there is any way to remove it entirely, but I would like to see it such that full automation is more likely to get you killed because of unexpected changes in circumstance.
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  • edited December 2019
    I feel like reacting to things like mob counts would be very easy to automate by using things like free observe to count the number of things in your room and adjacent rooms. Automation potential aside, I'd rather the emphasis not just be on counting mobs.. even when done manually, squinting ahead to see how things are grouped wouldn't really be a new or exciting challenge.

    Edit: to kind of clarify about my previous comment, I don't want it to be easily automated, but when I said not being genrunnable isn't the best goalpost its because I don't think it's that high of a bar in terms of difficulty. 
  • Ideas for peaks,  I think any single ability is not enough justify its position at higher levels. As such I would like to see perks that grow every 10 levels:
    Every 10 levels, Esteem and karma one can hold increases by original value(at 110 it would be 1000esteem/200% karma, at 120, it would be 1500esteem/300%karma, etc)
    I kinda want to see some sort of demigod-realm that's connected to prime in someway and different from manses. That every 10 levels, starting at 110, you get 1 room to add to your demigod-realm.
    Every 10 levels you have an 'enchantment' slot. And enchantment (spellcraft or tinkering enchants) that is just a toggle on/off as if you had the skill.


    If you wanted more one off perks:
    Reduction in karma blessing cost.
    Ability to select a bounded room in an non-org area that the demigod can return to quickly.
    Alcohol has less effect, preserving your sobriety more.

  • I like the idea of end-game content being effective only in certain areas, and agree with people saying that instancing is probably not a great idea. There is a ton of -space- in the game, and not much reason for people to bump into each other.  I'd love to see the endgame content add more to places that already exist, for example some way to call down supermobs on astral that, when defeated, recharge the node. Or a way to trigger an invasion of an aetherbubble, and clearing the bubble of the invasion grants everyone on the bubble some bonus.

    Basically, content that pushes people toward being in the same areas, but doesn't mechanically make them opposed to one another.

    Also, I personally like the idea of a minor health and crit bonus as long as they don't come into play for world events like death-challenge/etc. My first thought would be to have the buffs only activate on astral and aetherbubbles.
    Take great care of yourselves and each other.
  • Also, will additional levels award the traditional level up bonuses, like lessons, bound credits, and grimy wondercrystals?
  • Speaking of lessons, being able to unlock more of those would be a good endgame investment. Being able to put essence (perhaps with an upper limit) into learning those would be welcome.

    Generally, I'm assuming people probably just want more essence sinks which actually contribute to something. Being able to turn essence into other things is nice.
  • Going back to the question of what perks to add to post demigod level, perhaps extra weight points? Doesn't have to necessarily be every level. But that seems like a fairly easy add that isn’t a straight power buff, rather adds options. So long as it’s balanced low enough that you still can’t just outright buy every demi power it won’t make ascendant weight nor the weight artie obsolete. 
  • edited December 2019
    Free RP powers. Good
    Adjusting the weight thresholds from 50/100/150 to 50/75/100. Good
    Remove the cap on essence gain. This also includes diminishing returns, right? If so, good.

    Remove the cap on essence gain and instead allow players to 'purchase' additional levels with essence:
     Bestow a small amount of vitals gain. Not a fan, keep vitals/buffs system as absolutes.
     Minor critical bonus (like 0.01%)  0.1%/lvl seems better. 1-2% lifetime rewards for most seems fine. Cap at 4% (or even 2%) regardless just in case. Compared to other buffs, this is quite trivial (especially Wonderpie, giving 8% for 6 hours every day).
     An additional 1 weight So a lifetime of bashing later you can maybe get 1 more half-decent power? Sure, why not.

    @Pysynne idea: More power per link from nexus? I like it, but prefer an option to fully refill reserves from one command. LINK NEXUS FULL or something. As this is already possible to fully refull reserves via aethership collectors, I don't think there are any major balance issues to worry about here. This also diminishes the impact of deathaura (which is still amazing) by having to return to nexus for a minute or so versus many minutes and missing the entire combat event.

    @Kali idea: 1% increased reserves per level over 100? Yes, like it.

    Omniscience:
    This is the absolute best ability in Veneration, and it's at Mythical 50%. I agree making it universal is a good idea but I ask that it have a 1000 personal essence/minute cost (60k/hr is not crippling by any standard) to offset the fact that you're not venerated and cannot channel the power as efficiently (aka keep veneration sacred, please).

    Sealbearer and TA free powers. Yes, they should reasonably benefit from obtaining seal victories. I disagree with a limit of 1 per sealbearer as it does very little to reward those who have multiple medallions. Instead, limit sealbearers to only get a maximum of 3 free powers across whatever seals they have (which also removes the 1 per seal type restriction which I disagree with for all sealbearers/VAs). Due to their cripplingly low weight limit, this still makes them inferior to TAs who still get double weight of demi under new system. I believe only a couple active people in the game on have 3+ seal medallions, anyway, and those people would just not benefit after the third medallion as much which I am fine with as one of those people.

    (Crazy?) IDEA ALERT: My dislike for ascension design notwithstanding, alternatively just allow people who have 5+ medallions to transform into TA in one of those seal types. (Why 5? There are 9 seals and >4.5 makes it a majority, just feels right.)

    Instance/end game zone ideas: Dislike for reasons already stated. The game world is massive and largely unused. However, I do think the game needs more high tier endgame content for the solo player. Sitting in a room with 7+ people on astral hitting critters is the best/fastest xp, seems cheap that a single endgame decked out level 110 player is slower than just having 10 randoms be there with everyone braindead and not moving or doing much. If not, whatever, endgame rewards are more important than the method to get there.
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  • Ixion said:
    Free RP powers. Good
    Adjusting the weight thresholds from 50/100/150 to 50/75/100. Good
    Remove the cap on essence gain. This also includes diminishing returns, right? If so, good.

    Remove the cap on essence gain and instead allow players to 'purchase' additional levels with essence:
     Bestow a small amount of vitals gain. Not a fan, keep vitals/buffs system as absolutes.
     Minor critical bonus (like 0.01%)  0.1%/lvl seems better. 1-2% lifetime rewards for most seems fine. Cap at 4% (or even 2%) regardless just in case. Compared to other buffs, this is quite trivial (especially Wonderpie, giving 8% for 6 hours every day).
     An additional 1 weight So a lifetime of bashing later you can maybe get 1 more half-decent power? Sure, why not.

    @Pysynne idea: More power per link from nexus? I like it, but prefer an option to fully refill reserves from one command. LINK NEXUS FULL or something. As this is already possible to fully refull reserves via aethership collectors, I don't think there are any major balance issues to worry about here. This also diminishes the impact of deathaura (which is still amazing) by having to return to nexus for a minute or so versus many minutes and missing the entire combat event.

    @Kali idea: 1% increased reserves per level over 100? Yes, like it.

    Omniscience:
    This is the absolute best ability in Veneration, and it's at Mythical 50%. I agree making it universal is a good idea but I ask that it have a 1000 personal essence/minute cost (60k/hr is not crippling by any standard) to offset the fact that you're not venerated and cannot channel the power as efficiently (aka keep veneration sacred, please).

    Sealbearer and TA free powers. Yes, they should reasonably benefit from obtaining seal victories. I disagree with a limit of 1 per sealbearer as it does very little to reward those who have multiple medallions. Instead, limit sealbearers to only get a maximum of 3 free powers across whatever seals they have (which also removes the 1 per seal type restriction which I disagree with for all sealbearers/VAs). Due to their cripplingly low weight limit, this still makes them inferior to TAs who still get double weight of demi under new system. I believe only a couple active people in the game on have 3+ seal medallions, anyway, and those people would just not benefit after the third medallion as much which I am fine with as one of those people.

    (Crazy?) IDEA ALERT: My dislike for ascension design notwithstanding, alternatively just allow people who have 5+ medallions to transform into TA in one of those seal types. (Why 5? There are 9 seals and >4.5 makes it a majority, just feels right.)

    Instance/end game zone ideas: Dislike for reasons already stated. The game world is massive and largely unused. However, I do think the game needs more high tier endgame content for the solo player. Sitting in a room with 7+ people on astral hitting critters is the best/fastest xp, seems cheap that a single endgame decked out level 110 player is slower than just having 10 randoms be there with everyone braindead and not moving or doing much. If not, whatever, endgame rewards are more important than the method to get there.

    I like most of this. 

    Make it "have earned 5 medallions", so people who justifiably turned in duplicates aren't punished, BUT you have to have the seal of the TA you would try to take. If we feel it has to be org tied, make it cost 1 million power and require the TA to be to do a thing after org votes in favour of the ascent.  TA but with org power is PURELY if we NEED to tie it to an org. I'd love to actually see a quest of considerable difficulty that tied to your medallion and involved some super potent mobs and maybe a player cap. So people could enlist a small team to push for their TA status. Much less feasible, but more RP tied to it.

    Endgame hunting........ I will go more into that later.. that is a fun problem to tackle.
  • Malarious said:
    Ixion said:
    Instance/end game zone ideas: Dislike for reasons already stated. The game world is massive and largely unused. However, I do think the game needs more high tier endgame content for the solo player. Sitting in a room with 7+ people on astral hitting critters is the best/fastest xp, seems cheap that a single endgame decked out level 110 player is slower than just having 10 randoms be there with everyone braindead and not moving or doing much. If not, whatever, endgame rewards are more important than the method to get there.
    Endgame hunting........ I will go more into that later.. that is a fun problem to tackle.
    I feel like this isn't a wholly endgame thing, off hand discord comments I've seen indicates getting to 100 in the first place is still a struggle for solo players.

    A more holistic solution than just endgame seems more effective because it'd help everyone.
  • Saran said:
    I feel like this isn't a wholly endgame thing, off hand discord comments I've seen indicates getting to 100 in the first place is still a struggle for solo players.
    It's not really a struggle. Though Lusternia is worse (bashing-wise) than other games, if only because there's so many places you get enemied to if you attack the mobs. Influencing is still breezy to 100, that said astralbashing is still by far without parallel if there's a big group going.
  • Raimari said:
    Saran said:
    I feel like this isn't a wholly endgame thing, off hand discord comments I've seen indicates getting to 100 in the first place is still a struggle for solo players.
    It's not really a struggle. Though Lusternia is worse (bashing-wise) than other games, if only because there's so many places you get enemied to if you attack the mobs. Influencing is still breezy to 100, that said astralbashing is still by far without parallel if there's a big group going.
    Struggle is a relative term in the end.

    For me, bashing and influencing are relatively monotonous activities where the solo gains feel too slow.
    That then leads to frustration and disengagement because there are other games I can play where the progression pace is faster, or at least feels like it is.
    So the struggle is in maintaining the motivation to keep going with it.

    Some people don't notice it as much, others do. A solution that's not just "endgame" helps those who might otherwise disengage before demigod while still also helping at "endgame", and it's unlikely to really impact other players.
  • edited January 2020

    I feel like the issue there is more that demigod has become the status quo because of how fast some methods are, instead of it being an actual achievement. As much as I'd like to see some of the stuff like large astral bashes brought down to a reasonable level of exp gain, I don't think they can without alienating newer players who would have to actually put in effort, when so many existing players have had demigod handed to them. :(


    Edit: Wanted to add that there's not really any content locked behind being max level, other than some small utility/flavor powers right now, and holding domoths. From around level 80+ you can effectively participate in nearly every aspect of the game, including pvp.
  • Endgame revamp isn't looking at the difficulty (or lack thereof) of achieving demigod. If there are concerns, then please open up another forum thread if you like, but this is focusing on the presented changes and looking for ideas related to that. 

    Thank you
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