Warrior Weapon Runes

Xenthos

This is a repost of something I made months back & on the old forums, that I would like some discussion on with the Administrative team.

Generic Caster Runes:
Great Rune of Shielding: 350 credits.
Great Rune of Esoteric Authority: 1600 credits, affects all magic-sourced attacks.

Warrior Runes:
Vernal Champion x2: 1200 credits.
Vernal Knight x2: 1200 credits.

*NOTE: I am counting the Great Rune of Gripping as being essentially a 'frill' along with the Great Runes of Bleeding; sure they will add something, but they're not really 'important' as things go. If you want to count them, add on 250 for Warriors and 150 for caster-classes.

Initial Outlay
Casters:
1950
Warriors:
2400

If the caster wants to switch to another archetype, they can do so for no additional credit cost; simply use the shield-runed item as their shield (instead of an actual shield) and the magic damage rune continues to work its magic.

For warriors, however, each additional weapon set is an additional 2400 credits... or a 1500 credit pliers purchase. We'll pretend that the warrior is somewhat smart and uses pliers instead of 2400 credits to make a weapon set for each warrior archetype they skillflex.

Outlay
Casters: 1950
Warriors: 3900

Then, for the "PvP damage runes" as you put them (and you need to buy 2 to have any noticeable effect at all):
Magic Damage (500)
Fire Damage (500)
Cold Damage (500)
Poison Damage (500)
Lightning Damage (500)

Let's say the warrior only picks one of these, because he's not made of money (though, now that he has pliers, he easily could do more)
That jumps the warrior credit cost up to 4400 credits just to be able to have the same sort of flexibility available to casting classes for less than half that price.

Honestly, the absolute best thing that I can see from a player standpoint would be to rework it as follows:
1) Create a new 25-credit "attunement" rune for warrior weapons. One can be attached to each 1h weapon, or a 2h weapon requires 2 for full effect.
2) Remove all warrior weapon runes from all warrior weapons, and replace them with one 25-credit attunement rune (refund as happened previously when the weapon runes were tweaked).
3) Make warrior weapon runes not attach to weapons any more, but instead to Standards.
4) You use the attunement rune to attune a weapon to your standard; a weapon can only be attuned to 1 standard, but many weapons can be attuned to the same standard.
5) When attuned, the weapon receives the benefit of the runes affixed to the standard; for a 2h weapon, if there is only one rune it receives only half-benefit.

At this point, you can actually raise the price of (some of) the warrior runes; you could even double the cost of the stat and wounding runes if you really wanted to (since warriors would only need to buy 1 now, instead of 2), but it'd probably be better to just make the highest level 1000 credits or so (bringing the credit cost to around 2050 credits, +50 credits for each additional weapon set).

Leave the elemental runes at the same price as they are, single-only, only one can be attached to a standard at a time.

Reduce the price of pliers to around 500cr, since without Warriors using them to plop runes around on a regular basis between weapon sets, their value plummets to a point where they might be something nice to have for other classes (move a shield rune around, move jewellery runes around, and so on).

I can dream; even with this change, being a warrior would be more expensive (comparing elementals & bleeding runes to the other class-specific artifacts such as music runes), but no longer more than twice-as.

Xenthos

Shorter version of the solution:
1) The main runes you buy to enhance your weapons all attach to your standard instead of to weapons themselves. They are adjusted in price because you only need 1 (it will affect all weapons linked to it).
2) The only runes that get attached to weapons directly are a new 25-credit rune. This cannot be attached unless the weapon is at 463 or less stats (to enforce the current limit). Once attached, you can tune the weapon to a standard (like you link vials to your liquid rift). The weapon then gets the effect of the runes attached to that standard.

This standardizes warriors, makes our runes much more similar to the runes of other classes, removes ballooning credit expenditures, and gets rid of the entire "Warriors are so expensive, graagh" complaint that has been circulating for years.

* Additionally, Monks would need something (a sash, perhaps) that they can attach runes to themselves.  There was also some discussion about being able to embed something in their Ka or... I don't really know how that would work, certain types of monkish-attire makes more sense to me.

Ssaliss

The only "problem" is that this means you get a permanent and resetting weapon for 25cr. I wish I could get the same deal on my athame

Iasmos

Xenthos

Ssaliss said:

The only "problem" is that this means you get a permanent and resetting weapon for 25cr. I wish I could get the same deal on my athame

That's not a problem for the following reason:
You have to significantly downgrade your weapon to get a rune onto it. If you don't also buy the stat rune, sure your weapon is resetting & non-decay... it also is absolute rubbish (so there's no point in doing it).

Ssaliss

Iasmos said:

You get a fair deal for your athame, in the form of a weapon that acts like a shield.

If you use your athame for PvP or bashing, sure. I basically only use it for growth/guard though (and the occasional Nightkiss when a gravedigger pulls me down while I'm harvesting).

EDIT: I didn't realise that "rune-ready" weapons were that bad though. Fair enough.

Iasmos

Tandrin

I think I said I agreed when this was proposed on the old forums.  Please consider this or some kind of change in mechanic for Warriors/Monks. 

Lothringen

Yes, please.

Karlach

I absolutely love this, except for one thing, on the subject of magical damage runes.

Hypothetically you get to the point where you want to rune your bashing hammers for Icewynd with Fire runes.

Yet you've got for example Poison runes for your PvP spec weapon.


How do you work around having two sets? Allow the standard to affix more than one type of magical damage and invoke them the way you do curios?

Xenthos

A lot of people agreed; I just didn't want it lost in the forum transition.

Morkarion said:

I absolutely love this, except for one thing, on the subject of magical damage runes.

Hypothetically you get to the point where you want to rune your bashing hammers for Icewynd with Fire runes.

Yet you've got for example Poison runes for your PvP spec weapon.


How do you work around having two sets? Allow the standard to affix more than one type of magical damage and invoke them the way you do curios?

You'd need the (reduced in price) pliers for that; I'm envisioning them still having a purpose for warriors in that sense.

Karlach

Xenthos said:

You'd need the (reduced in price) pliers for that; I'm envisioning them still having a purpose for warriors in that sense.

Fair enough, from someone who swaps between various weapons depending on situation I'm fully behind this.

Kaimanahi

want want want want want (take pity on us)

Karlach

With the recent discussions about improving and simplifying the game. I'd love to bring this back to the forefront again.

As the class with the highest credit investment for endgame PK, some form of alleviation by allowing us to spread this high cost around all our weapons without having to shell out another ridiculously high cost for the pliers (that would still have a use in the game!) or forging mallet/large quantities of steel and spending a good 20 minutes reforging a PK weapon to a hunting weapon and back again (whereas casters simply do their maximum damage in both through their investments without any swapping) would be greatly appreciated.


Knighthood feels like an endless investment sink as far as credits go, and I've already stuck my head pretty far down the rabbit hole, moreso than I'd have to for any other class.



TL:DR - Bump, please fix.

Rivius

Yes, please. It's more expensive (more than 10 times over) for a runed warrior to switch specs than archetypes entirely. That's ridiculous.

You can even make it simpler. You can make stat, wounding and bleeding runes into jewelry runes and keep the damage runes as weapon specific.

Karlach

Rivius said:

 and keep the damage runes as weapon specific.

I would very much not mind this in the slightest.

Xenthos

Rivius said:

Yes, please. It's more expensive (more than 10 times over) for a runed warrior to switch specs than archetypes entirely. That's ridiculous.

You can even make it simpler. You can make stat, wounding and bleeding runes into jewelry runes and keep the damage runes as weapon specific.

I use bleeding runes to make weapons permanent.  I move my damage type runes around with pliers, so need a cheap rune that will stay on weapons to keep them from decaying.  So, that "simple solution" would need to exclude bleeders, or provide an alternative "cheap" rune for that function.

Rivius

Hrm. I don't really care which one it is. The only reason damage came to mind is because it would be problematic to make it a jewelry rune. Your standards solution is fine to me too.

Xenthos

Rivius said:

Hrm. I don't really care which one it is. The only reason damage came to mind is because it would be problematic to make it a jewelry rune.

It'd be no different than skills that convert a percentage of physical damage to other types.  It would definitely take some extra coding to ensure only 2 can be activated at once, but I'm not sure about "problematic" (unless that's what you're referring to).

I do really like the concept of being able to attach the things to a standard though.

Karlach

Just activate them the way you can curios?

Malayn

Don't raise the costs............ what are you?

Make them effect all weapons but DOUBLE the cost? Are you freaking crazy? Shut up Xenthos you are drunk (or were at the time of posting).

Leave costs as is, just have them attach to standards directly and add the attunement rune. DO NOT UP THE COSTS OF THE RUNES THEMSELVES.

You would be looking at 3K+ if the prices doubled, then 25 per weapon. Some of us dont want to see prices be stupid high.

Xenthos

Malarious said:

Don't raise the costs............ what are you?

Make them effect all weapons but DOUBLE the cost? Are you freaking crazy? Shut up Xenthos you are drunk (or were at the time of posting).

Leave costs as is, just have them attach to standards directly and add the attunement rune. DO NOT UP THE COSTS OF THE RUNES THEMSELVES.

You would be looking at 3K+ if the prices doubled, then 25 per weapon. Some of us dont want to see prices be stupid high.

I feel like you were drunk when posting this, because you missed the other part of that idea; you don't need to buy 2 wounding runes / 2 stat runes, you would just be buying one of each.  You buy half as many runes, so you can double the cost.  I mean, it specifically says exactly that in the line you are referring to.  :P

Karlach

I assume if you do that, you're ignoring point 5 on your post? I like that idea.

Akyaevin

I think point 5 calls back to point 1: he means one ATTUNEMENT rune gets half the benefit, not one stat rune.

Karlach

Aha. Well yes, hey look guys, more ways to make money off players!

(And pliers STILL have a use)

Alban

Am I the only one who finds the concept of pliers, both how they are currently and the proposed change, to be really shady?

The fact that you can spend buckets of money on artifact runes and not be able to move them around where you want is one of the few parts of the game that feels like a money grab. Why can't I move my rune of absorption from one brooch to another, if I want? Why can't you move your runes from one weapon to another?

Just doesn't make sense.

Nihta

Maybe a communal pliers could be sold to each commune or city for x commune gold or credits, which would just be a room where you could move runes around if attuned to that org.

Xenthos

I'm pretty sure that the concept of pliers will never change.  Being able to move artifacts around freely without an additional personal investment just doesn't really seem to be desired.

I was frankly pretty surprised when they put pliers in; I do feel like the only compromise that's got a chance is reducing the price.  Unfortunately, I don't really envision a price reduction while warrior runes are the way they are; they're a huge credit sink, whereas most of the other runes people might want to move around just aren't worth buying pliers for.

It leaves a significant disparity between classes, because warriors (like me) buy pliers for the weapon rune movement and then can use them for everything else to boot.

Malayn

1 rune for ALL weapons? As in you buy a +15 rune and its +30 on two handers?

Karlach

A +15 rune won't be a +30 across the board, speed remains at +15. It'd be like having two current +15 runes on where damage stays the same, speed is halved and prec gets a 10% increase.

In this case a +15 would be double damage and 110% to prec while untouching speed. But the cost of a rune would go up because you're only buying 1 instead of 2.

Xenthos

Yeah.  Basically, if you put a +15/+15/+15 rune on a standard, and one attunement rune each on a pair of 1hers, that is exactly the same effect as the current "buy 2 +15/+15/+15 and put one on each weapon".  You have just one stat rune now, but it is providing its effect to both weapons.  Additionally it provides the additional bonus of being able to affect any other weapon you plunk an attunement rune onto as well!

For your 2her, you'd still have to buy 2 of the attunement runes, or it would act like the current weapons act if you only attach 1 stat rune (I believe it gives +15/+16/+7).  The second attunement rune would bring it to +30/+33/+15.