This is outlining in more depth/detail the plan for revamping trades.
Trades will no longer have a lesson cost. All lessons will be refunded (we will potentially allow people to trade lessons for credits, details to be determined).
Players will be able to select up to two trades. One trade inherently at no cost. The second trade will be selected by either using the Demipower SecondTradeSkill or the Endowment of Arts artifact. We will allow players to refund the essence for SecondTradeSkill should they want it. BeauteousThought will be fully refunded to everyone that has selected it and it will be replaced (see below).
When a player selects a skill, they will have access to the entire skillset for the most part. We may link some things to proficiency (certain patterns etc). Most basic things will be available to players initially.
They will start at 0% proficiency.
Traders will become proficient in a trade by performing the trade, or spending lessons to become more proficient. We will introduce names and tiers for proficiency levels so we don't have to refer to them by percentages etc.
Players can gain up to 5% proficiency at a base level per day by performing the trade. Certain things will be introduced that will increase how much proficiency you can gain per day. Classes will have bonuses towards certain skillsets initially(see below). We may also introduce guild bonuses, family bonuses, order bonuses, artifacts etc that will allow more proficiency gain per day. This will be capped at up to 10% per day.
The demipower BeauteousThought will be changed grant a 0.5% bonus to gaining proficiency, and allow players to reach a higher level of proficiency (105%) than normal.
In addition, players can spend 100 lessons a day to learn an additional 5% proficiency. The difference is that you will only be able to gain up to 50% proficiency through lessons. The same bonuses above would count towards how much proficiency you gain, again maxing out at 10% per day. The lesson cost would remain the same, so at max bonus, you would gain 10% proficiency for 100 lessons.
The likely number for max proficiency gain when we introduce things will be at 6.5%, meaning that with both learning in-game and performing lessons, you would hit 100% proficiency in 8 days. When other bonuses are introduced (mostly for flavor and theme), the fastest would be 5 days.
Skillflexing will be allowed, but when a player skillflexes out of a tradeskill, all proficiency will be lost. This may seem harsh and we may introduce ways to keep some level of proficiency but the goal here is that we want to encourage players to participate in the economy and have to engage with other traders. Promoting proficiencies, whether through shops or directly with players will mean that proficient players will be able to sell their goods and services at a cheaper rate and potentially higher quality than non-proficient players.
Additionally, proficiency will need to be upkept, with it being used at least once a game year. It will decay 10% every year it is not used. This may be changed but the goal here is to encourage players to buy from active traders and their shops.
The overall goal with proficiency levels is that a trader at 100% proficiency and zero artifacts will be more efficient/effective than a player at 0% proficiency and all the artifacts.
Here are a few benefits from being proficient in a skill
- Gather things faster and easier
- Services will be faster and more efficient
- Goods will be of higher quality, cost fewer comms to make, and last longer.
One aspect of proficiency will be that making designs will cost more commodities at lower levels of proficiency. Current design commodity requirements will be the level for 100% proficiency, so players at 0% proficiency will need more commodities to make the items, including special commodities. This may mean that players at lower proficiency are unable to make certain designs because they cannot gather enough special commodities.
We will be removing all trade restrictions. Anyone will be able to select any trade skill, regardless of class. Certain classes will instead give a 1% bonus towards gaining proficiency in that skillset.
- Warriors - Forging
- Monks - Tattoos
- Bards - Tinkering/Brewmeister
- Guardians/Mages - Spellcraft
- Wiccans/Druids - Lorecraft (Alchemy)
Trans Tradeskills and other mechanical benefits
We will be removing most trans trade items and any other mechanical benefits from trade skills. We want to eliminate mechanical reasons that players will choose trades and instead allow players to pick the trade that they want to do. Most trans-items, and any skill that grants the trader some mechanical benefit will be removed. This will affect some trades more than others. Additionally, for the same reason, we are removing aethertrading. We do not want to encourage players to select specific trades because they can aethertrade while others cannot.
Note: To be clear - this will eliminate benefits that the trader gets, benefits that the trader makes/creates (like kirigami for instance) will be left in that everyone can use.
Trades and Shops
Every trade skill will have a way to sell their goods or services in a shop. Tattoos, enchantments etc will all be able to sell their goods in a shop. This will include things like engraving services or piping services.
A new prospecting skillset will be introduced. We're not going to go into more nitty-gritty details here but will summarize the skill. Prospectors will be able to produce various metal commodities by either mining it through veins of the metal or panning for them in the rivers and waterways. They'll be able to turn metals into alloys as well by combining them in various ways. We will be introducing more base metal and alloy commodities (such as copper, bronze, and titanium) as well as skills such as dowsing to find metal veins.
Proficiency will allow prospectors to mine/pan faster and for more metals as well as refining them into allows better.
A new agriculture skillset will be introduced. This will be a skill set that allows players to gather/create a variety of commodities such as fruit, veggies, milk, and meat. You'll be able to gather cows and slaughter them for meat and tan their hides for leather, shear sheep for cloth and gather spinnerets to make silk. Gather fruit and veggies and maybe even grow your own trees/plants to harvest them. You'll require a variety of equipment that other trades will have to make for you (such as nestboxes, buckets, baskets, looms or tanning racks).
Proficiency will allow you to get more commodities from your efforts in a faster time.
Specific Changes to Current Trade Skills
- Alchemy will be combined with Lorecraft to become one skillset - Alchemy
- Brewmeisters will no longer use Alchemy
- Liniment, Antidote, Mending, Restoration, Sanguine, Phlegmatic and Melancholic will be removed (unless I'm missing use for them, like antidote)
- MagicInk will be added from Brewmeister
- PhilospherStone will be removed
- Proficiency will increase how amalgamation speed, how much power it uses, and how many sips you get per batch.
Artisan (Potential name change to Carpentry or something better)
- Prized Skill will be removed
- Low Proficiency will increase commodity costs to build designs and maintain them
- Proficiency will increase how much furniture they can fit in a room
- Packaging sold in shops will consider the creator's proficiency in regard to room use.
- Low Proficiency will increase commodity costs (including origami)
- Proficiency will reduce balance times and magicink costs to make.
- Vellum will be made riftable (apparently already is)
- Ensure that all books are sellable in shops, including Omnibus etc.
- MagicTome will be removed
- Languages will be removed from Bookbinding and moved into a Lingualism mini-skill
- Lingualism will be unlocked for 250 credits and will allow players to spend 100 lessons to learn up to 5 languages (from various NPC's that speak the language)
- Brewmeister will no longer require alchemy
- All drinks from Cooking will be moved to Brewmeister
- MagicInk will be moved to Alchemy
- TeaCeremony, Belch, BeerBelly, PukeMaster, StandingDrunk, Steelgut will be removed.
- Proficiency will increase sips created, as well as lower balance times and power usage. It will also increase decay times.
- Proficiency may increase alcohol potency (not sure if good idea)
- Refinement, Dietician and Herofete will be removed (Herofete will remain on wondercorn)
- All drinks will be removed from Cooking and added to Brewmeister
- We will add 'piping kits' that will be sold in shops that allow players to pipe onto their own food, in color if we can.
- Low proficiency will increase comm usage
- Proficiency will improve preserving, satiation and balance times (power costs?)
- Proficiency will be linked to either Tinkering/Spellcraft
- It will increase enchanting speed, decrease power cost, and maybe more charges per enchant
- Develop a way to sell enchants through shops so players can enchant their specific piece of jewelry.
- This could take the form of enchanters enchanting cubes with specific enchants that they can use to sell in the shop. This would not allow players to use the cubes to use the enchantments themselves, only to apply it to other items
- MasterArmour will be removed
- Padding and weapon/armour enhancements will be given a way to sell in shops.
- Low Proficiency will increase comm requirements
- Proficiency will reduce time to forge items
- Will increase commodity recovery from smelting (this may already be 100%)
- Will make items last longer
- Remove Herblore and Smoking
- Proficiency will increase balance recovery and how many herbs you can harvest per HARVEST
- Remove Refinement and Tierstone
- Make powerstones at 100% riftable (they will always decay outside a rift)
- Allow engraving services at a shop
- Low proficiency will increase comm costs
- Proficiency will make gemcutting more efficient
- Proficiency will increase decay times and prestige.
- Proficiency will make melting more effective.
- Remove Immunity
- Proficiency will increase how many applications you get
- Proficiency will reduce balance times.
- Remove MagiCrown
- combine Guardian/Mage enchanting to be available to all
- See Enchantment for proficiency bonuses
- Remove Refinement
- Splendours will remain, but tailors will be able to make them for anyone.
- Allow the selling of padding/thermal/depadding services
- Allow selling of enhancement knots
- Allow mending services in shops
- Sell embroideryKits to allow players to embroider items (in color if possible)
- Low Proficiency will increase comm requirements
- Proficiency will increase decay times and prestige
- Remove TattooMaster
- Tattoo traders will be able to prepare skin on anyone and give them tattoo armour (up to 16% resistance) This means it will no longer be limited to monks.
- Need to design a way to sell tattoos in a shop (see Report 115 for one example)
- Proficiency will decrease time to tattoo
- Selling in shops could not last as long as getting it from a tattooist
- Low proficiency will increase the amount of tints required.
- Remove RoseGlasses
- Offer a way to sell miniature repair services
- see Enchantment.
Basically, the idea here is you're building proficiency to prevent grinding as much so you can sell things cheaper and more efficiently.
Edit: I do hope that you won't treat aethergoop as a premium only currency as you need to pay money for it.
Did I miss anything?
- Have players grind to build proficiency that will reduce grinding in the long term. And then since proficiency will drop every year, players will have to continue to grind in order to grind less.
- Players will have to specialize in a game that does not have the population to support specialization.
- Instead of allowing all trades to aethertrade, no aethertrading will be allowed by any trades so aethergoop will essentially become a premium only currency.
- Remove all mechanical incentive for players to trans a trade skill, so that only players who are interested in the creative aspects of the game will fully trans trade skills, further increasing scarcity.
I'm slightly concerned about the negative impact on the removal of the trans tradeskill options and the impact on PVP, and as Fillirriqili pointed out, the fact that Aethertrading did allow for people to get Aethergoop far more easily to work on their gnomeweapon, which has become the most useful method of bashing. Obviously we had a selection of people who took tradeskills for the trans options, but some of them were genuinely useful; I'm not sure that removing the trans tradeskill level will help encourage conflict -- it's as negative for people who never accessed them and now cannot get those benefits as it is to those who had them and have to get used to not having them.
Perhaps there's a (non-artifact, non-payment) way to incorporate the effects of those tradeskills back into the game world.
2) Players will not have to specialize but they'll be encouraged to specialize. We're addressing issues such as not being able to find traders with various things.
3) somewhat, you still have wondercorn and can buy it in game still. Aethertrading wasn't the only way to get goop.
4) Yeah, we're removing the benefit to have people choose the trade they want to do rather than the trade they need for the benefit. We wanted to remove any potential bias to let players do what they want freely.
The hope being that the system will reward merchants that opt-in and go hard with crafting/selling. Also giving them a chance to build wealth through crafting and selling through the NPC missions. Crucially, this system is in no way punitive to those who don't engage in it. Mechanically the items crafted by someone with 100% Merchantry and 0% Merchantry are equal.
- Remove class lock for tradeskills.
- Add in a 'proficiency' meter called something like *Merchantry*. This meter goes up when you sell items crafted/harvested by you to other players via a shop or in person. Any single item can boost your merchantry only once. There would have to be a syntax added for official sales in person, along the lines of BUY sword1231231 FROM CIARAN FOR <gold>. Proficiency will slowly decay over time as well.
- There is something akin to aethertraders but for crafting where gnomes/whatever lore organization will contact you via tells asking for some randomized item out of your crafting catalog, the reward being comms/goop/whatever. The rate of getting these missions is influenced by your merchantry skill level.
I'm glad I hadn't yet bought the artifact to give me a fourth trade as planned. I think removing the inherent buffs/bonuses is a great idea, I can even get behind removing aethertraders, but I think those were enough without also taking away the trades from people like myself who like to dabble in all the things, stock their shops sometimes, and design things they can also craft without hunting people down.
The shop changes are great! No more needing to find a person for one charge of a certain enchantment or for tattoos or what have you. Love it. Empower shop keepers! Please don't with the otherhand knock them back with this nerf. I have every trade currently that I can take and the thought of picking up the others is very exciting...except, again, being forced to choose (or suffer everything taking longer/costing more.) That's really unfun. I don't spend hours on hours on my trade, just here and there I like to dabble in different things when stock is low, but in many different trades.
Pleeeeease. Please please. Reconsider this.
Also - i suggest remove brewmeistery entirely and split it between cooking and alchemy as appropriate, it seems silly to remove those things from chefs and have a skillset that literally can only make a handful of things. Especially given it will no longer be class-tied and buffs removed.
And another thought - will teaceremony be added anywhere like the wondercorn? Some of us still made use of them situationally.
Every other part of this proposal feels pretty good to me at a glance (except maybe removing gold drops entirely) but this not only stings personally but I feel like it will have the desired result. How many shopkeepers do we have out there, that are like me and have multiple trades they use to stock those shops? If we are nerfed, are there really that many other people out there willing to stock a shop with their wares? It's hard to find some trades already, like tinkering. Are there really that many tinkers who would willingly stay at that trade to stock a shop? Over other more creative crafts? I know currently I flex it to access the enchants people need. But if they're going to be available in NPC shops anyway, why bother having it? I suspect current shopkeepers who like to flex trades will be hit, and everyone else who never cared anyway will continue not caring because they can just buy what they need from Trader Bob.
What is the incentive for non-creative trades? People wanting unique things will be able to access them in those player-run shops - awesome, but why have alchemy, or herbs? I know a lot of my shop-keeping gold comes not from anything creative but from people who can't find avaricehorn or regulators. Obviously it's hard to know without knowing what the NPC shops sell for but if they're not -significantly- higher there's still no way to make a profit, with now scarcity items always being available.
I'm a bit upset but I hope I'm still making sense. This feels like a backward solution and a big nerf to my enjoyment of shopkeeping. I tend to stock things to fill a need. 99% of my designs are public or in the city cartels - which would be readily available also. So even the trades that are creative likely wouldn't generate income for me unless i start filling my private cartels, which generally are designs only for myself or family, private for that very reason. Please rethink the trade limit/proficiency aspect. Cut the huge lesson costs to make them accessible, strip out the buffs, leave them as fun perks to have if you enjoy making things without having to grind to be -good- at something you transcended already.
In all seriousness, though, aethertrading has made goop (and, in turn, a lot of Lusternia) so accessible. Removing it would be a great loss. I'm not even talking about my profits from selling refined items*, it's all about adding a huge paywall. Locking goop behind wondercorns (which, themselves, cost 10 crystals / levelling up to Demigod), plus the fact that they can only produce 500 goop per year, is a return to pay-for-perks in a big way.
* My highest profit from refined items is from Cooking, which is around 1.78k gold. To get from worthless value to uniquely refined value takes around 20 RL mintes; in an hour, that's 5.34k gold. Here's the math:
Using the design 'a piece of stew bread' (grain 2, meat 1, vegetables 1)
Now, I find that I need around 37 pieces of stew bread to make 1 unique. So the gold cost of a uniquely refined stew bread goes up to 2,220 gold. Selling them for 4,000 gold apiece nets me 1,780 gold.
- 1 grain = ~14 gold (28 gold total)
- 1 meat = ~23 gold
- 1 vegetables = ~9 gold
- total for 1 stew bread: 60 gold
Explorer (80%), Achiever (53%), Socializer (53%), Killer (13%)
-Lump all amalgamating skills in Brewmeister back into Lorecraft
-Anyone with Brewmeister gets Lorecraft for free
Cooks get to continue to make drinks, but will need to get prepared leaves and malts from lorecrafters still (unless that will come from agriculture instead?). Seems reasonable for maintaining trade reliance and not weirdly dividing food and drink trades entirely.
EDIT: Or hey, just do away with lorecraft at the same time too. There's no reason for a specialisation when there's no specialisations - just put all the remaining amalgamating skills back into alchemy, done.
Cooking proficiency should affect portions and satiation - cooking artifacts/pieman can be adjusted to influence preservation time/balance loss between uses.
Artifacts retain some utility and use but are no longer the main focal point for profit in cooking - instead, keeping and maintaining your proficiency is the surest means of boosting your ability to generate profit from your inputs.
The big problem is that artifacts (and curios) provide drastic benefits that massively warp the profit ratios of certain skills.
The only part of the proposal that addresses this is the vague statement that "The overall goal with proficiency levels is that a trader at 100% proficiency and zero artifacts will be more efficient/effective than a player at 0% proficiency and all the artifacts.". But again that doesn't matter if there's going to be someone at 100% proficiency with all the artifacts producing puritydust at less than a quarter of the cost. You're never going to sell any dust.
Individuals possessing multiple trade skills is a smaller problem than artifacts.
If you do address the artifact disparity, I can understand the idea behind stopping individuals from stocking their shops with every trade at full efficiency. It feels like an awkwardly artificial limitation to force shopkeepers to not just fully stock their own shop but it's understandable. But I don't think it needs to be a dramatic difference. Even a 10% difference in price is enough to make people pick the cheaper shop, or have shopkeepers seek out someone with proficiency to stock their shop, while allowing cartel-owners to sell unique designs from multiple trades without being completely priced out.
We're not trying to make it hard to build proficiency here. I had initially thought that building with proficiency would take about 15-30 minutes a day, but we can reduce that if people feel like requiring that much effort to build proficiency daily is too much. The reason for maintaining proficiency is really just to promote buying from active players and their shops rather than dormant player's shops. It's not meant to be a hardship. I don't think asking someone to do something with their trade once every 12 days is too much here.
The revamp and emphasis on shops here is what we're doing to allow this to be opt-in, so if you're not interested in spending time finding someone, you can just seek out a shop, purchase what you want, and then go about your day.
We can potentially look at bringing some trans trade items back as artifacts or something (kind of like how herofete is a part of the Wondercorn) but the reason for their removal is to remove as much potential bias when selecting trade skills as possible. By reducing them down to pure trades, players can freely choose a trade they want, rather than a trade that provides them the most benefit. I understand that not all trades are equal and it'll undoubtedly mean certain trade skills will be selected more, but it also opens up opportunities for players to really benefit from selecting from those less relied upon trades (less competition).
The only thing we're really making hard and discouraging is being able to do all the trades. We're not preventing you from doing so though, and are adding mechanics and things to encourage players to work together for a mutual benefit here. You'll be able to work with other players to sell items from your shop or directly buy from them to turn around and sell in your shop as you currently can do. We realize that it's really the largest competing goal here between encouraging engagement and encouraging the merchant playstyle. As I said earlier, I'm not sure any other way around it.
And I saw others ask above, but I'll echo again asking how the existing trade artifacts are going to factor in.
Being limited to just two trades seems extremely limited. Especially if 2 more trades are being added (a total of 16 trade skills!) I can just imagine how difficult this is going to make things even for somebody wanting to specialize.
Edit: I also wonder how many people bought a cord/tam not to swap class skills but just to play around with trades.
Also remove brewmeister entirely, it's lacklustre. Split it between cooking (drinks/teas/malts) and alchemy (magicink), seems much better than preserving a very blah trade already, and solves the mess of cooking cartels.
Edit: Also tinkering, just merge it with enchantment. Let's be real, both brewmeister and tinkering were the ugly cousins of alchemy and spellcraft.
Instead of making you lose all proficiency for flexing trades, you get 1 free trade flex per weave. Any additional trade flexing costs you 10% loss to that trade. I think this is something people like me, who have a ton of trade skills, could live with. I don't mind being locked into 2 active trades at once so long as I can still use trades I've worked RL years for.
I think Isser ran into the issue a couple of weeks ago where he'd made a bunch of food and couldn't even give it away before it decayed, that's before you're even just trying to sell things where I've had a lot of fun with the apathy of bothering because everything I'd stock for the pixie is well and truly readily available.
On top of that, the design stuff is likely going to make stocking massively easier and a more secure investment which without something seems like it'd compound those issues. If I kept all my trades with just those changes I'd probably easily be able to stock basically everything in the pixie pretty trivially.
As for creative/non-creative, I kinda find non-creative potentially appealing because it's just... easier to get into them. You don't need to worry about designs, you're just generating useful stuff for sale. It seems potentially more accessible as a lower time investment sorta thing. The new trades seem like they could also be newbie-friendly for like ways for them to make more... assured money.