Magnagora's Contemptibles

Loralai

I'm going to start this discussion knowing that nothing I say here is likely to make the situation(IE, my situation) any better. On the other hand, I don't believe it's possible to make it worse. So here we go.

-No, I'm not a newbie. I haven't played a while and there's a lot I've forgotten.
-Yes I was aware of the laws concerning contemptibles and general expectations, etc etc.
-I am not complaining about being treated "badly"
-I had only a passing familiarity with Sutekh and knew almost nothing about what happened between him and Mag until Shango told me(IC).

I have heard it before that the way Magnagora treats 'undesirable' races is at least better than Celest's complete banning of them, presumably because it allows for the possibility of roleplay. I may have even made that argument myself before. The claim that I've heard from some is that the law might have been changed if not for Sutekh's actions. I don't care either way if that's true. What bothers me is that knowing this makes it obvious that it is impossible for anything to ever change. 

It's one thing to know that certain limitations exist currently. It's another to know that there's always now going to be a "roleplay" justification for why the law can't be changed, even though Sutekh wasn't really a kephera any more than I'm a merian, and we have nothing to do with each other. Because of this incident (and other things I've heard oocly), I really don't want to interact with most people in Mag, because of the feeling that I'm just going to be pissing them off by doing so. As it is, I would suicide this character if not for how ridiculously lucky I've been for solstice and vaults so far.

My point is, I hate what feels like dishonesty more than anything else about this situation. If Magnagorans, generally, feel that there is no way that anyone could play a merian, kephera, or elfen in an interesting way and be of some benefit to the city... then just ban those races. It would be kinder, would cause less frustration and drama, ic and oocly, for all involved. It's not really a side option if current Magnagoran players don't want the rp.

tldr, sorry but Celest is right.

Lawrence

As someone who also made a contemptible at a few points in my history with Lusternia I can say that's it's pretty hit or miss. Currently said kephera left a really bad taste in the city's mouth by stirring a little drama before they departed. I have an elfen who hides in the undercity (where they belong) and designs with the scraps they have available for the other lowly serfs and beggars that flood the streets. While the character is wildly limiting due to not having upward mobility, there just isn't a lot of people willing to roleplay with contemptible players due to the recent ones burning them when given a chance. I haven't seen or heard anyone talk negatively of you in particular, and I personally quite enjoy your character. I think the law could potentially be looked at, or perhaps give all contemptible players a probation of sorts to prove they aren't the slimy scum that the rest of their people are without totally excluding people the social cast, which would still allow the rest of the city to side-eye them or write them off as "one of the good ones".

I'm sorry to hear you're not having a great time in the city, and I hope you find somewhere in the game that gels well with you. 

Loralai

Lawrence said:

As someone who also made a contemptible at a few points in my history with Lusternia I can say that's it's pretty hit or miss. Currently said kephera left a really bad taste in the city's mouth by stirring a little drama before they departed. I have an elfen who hides in the undercity (where they belong) and designs with the scraps they have available for the other lowly serfs and beggars that flood the streets. While the character is wildly limiting due to not having upward mobility, there just isn't a lot of people willing to roleplay with contemptible players due to the recent ones burning them when given a chance. I haven't seen or heard anyone talk negatively of you in particular, and I personally quite enjoy your character. I think the law could potentially be looked at, or perhaps give all contemptible players a probation of sorts to prove they aren't the slimy scum that the rest of their people are without totally excluding people the social cast, which would still allow the rest of the city to side-eye them or write them off as "one of the good ones".

I'm sorry to hear you're not having a great time in the city, and I hope you find somewhere in the game that gels well with you. 

On the one hand I get this and can recognize that part of the problem I'm having with it could be bad timing. Considering I have no control over someone else's actions for something I knew nothing about when creating the character... doesn't help. I do agree that there has to be some kind of role/probation given to contemptibles since they can't advance. But it comes down to, if no one wants to make that change then the current system shouldn't be kept either. I don't want to force people to play the way I want them to, I just want it to be clear what play is acceptable.

Ilthilior

It's hard to write this and justify it on the forums without having some sort of in character / out of character discussion, but the short of it is I do find you useful. That said, you can't gain rank.

I know Shango has been working on allowing you to change title and do things in the Infernals, and I know other individuals have been doing stuff to make sure that you're as prepared as you can be. (I also would like to apologize about not taking you on in a spar yesterday. That was due to me being an idiot and not due to general disdain from the character.)

Magnagora is not as lively during the times that you're around, but feel free to reach out to me in game.

Loralai

Ilthilior said:

It's hard to write this and justify it on the forums without having some sort of in character / out of character discussion, but the short of it is I do find you useful. That said, you can't gain rank.

I know Shango has been working on allowing you to change title and do things in the Infernals, and I know other individuals have been doing stuff to make sure that you're as prepared as you can be. (I also would like to apologize about not taking you on in a spar yesterday. That was due to me being an idiot and not due to general disdain from the character.)

Magnagora is not as lively during the times that you're around, but feel free to reach out to me in game.

Not gaining rank doesn't bother me, it's the other stuff that tends to go along with it, especially guilds. Much as I don't love most guild tasks, it does give you something to do or at least think about when nothing else is going on. 

I didn't take it that way, Ilthilior. I admit part of my perception here could be because of frustration in general and that Lusternia seems kinda slow lately.

Zagreus

Fain even years after his departure certainly lives up to his teachings of conflict, hatred, and greed. He and his history are quite obviously the genesis of the policy.

I don't think bringing the Sutekh topic into this conversation does you any favors. There's a lot to unpack that I won't get into, but doubling down on being contemptible race publicly is not a good example for your argument. Mag is not going to just forget its RP because a person thinks their desires weigh more heavily than centuries of Mag RP and their Elder's wishes. They, like you by your own words, are not newbies. So it appears you enter into that race and RP with knowledge of how they are treated. It strikes me as odd to walk into a punch and then question to the punch you knew was coming.

I really don't want to interact with most people in Mag, because of the feeling that I'm just going to be pissing them off by doing so. 
I don't feel that way, for what it's worth. Interacting is more than welcome. I'd offer we just don't want a contemptible race flexing on their contemptible race and waving it around as if we should care. Maggots belong in the dirt, not riding on a tainted gas cloud with champagne.

If Magnagorans, generally, feel that there is no way that anyone could play a merian, kephera, or elfen in an interesting way and be of some benefit to the city... then just ban those races.
I don't feel that way. Many can and have played those races with interesting RP and also have contributed. Those that do have to accept that they will not get advancement opportunities in the city. Until Sutekh went off the deep end and tried to flex their racial RP to contest/advance in cityrank, they would have been a great example of such.

NPCs generally now respect race hats. Generally players respect race hats. There are a couple methods to check true race, but no one cares to in my experience. If your aim is to solve a problem rather than causing a stir: If you're absolutely set on being one of those races and choose not to change, buy a race hat, don't "flex" contemptible RP, and live your best life would be my advice. (Any number of Mags would just buy it for you, if that's an issue.) If you don't think this is possible... I'm merian most of the time for hunting bonuses (THE HORROR!)... If Fain came back tomorrow, I'd point at my race hat (and let's be real, the 50 other mask-like artifacts covering the face) and say, "Surely the mighty Red Masque, whose Masque is not really as such, would not begrudge me a myriad of secrets as well, right Lord?"

Malayn

Just throwing in my 2 sovereigns.

Mal does not care about race. They have purpose to him, only in two factors:
1) Aesthetics, as he tends to notice a lass with fur.
2) Racial ability, as he sometimes asks for specific ones.
If you're a merian, you can run a hunt, yay. He does not follow Fain or care that you are merian. He has previously cityfavoured contemptibles because he genuinely doesn't pay attention to races. He remembers names, he may forget genders, and he ignores race. The only time you will see him bring up race directly is something like "Do we have an igasho to tackle?". 

It is just not who he is. Now, there are other people in Magnagora who are not especially concerned with race, and this is why things could change. I think incremental progress could be made, but it has to be incremental, you aren't about to become Warlord tomorrow. This will take work and diligent RP though. 

Uzriel

What it comes down to is really. If you want to have an experience where you can gain rank in Magnagora, and generally be accepted by everybody. It’s not going to happen as a kephera, merian, or elfen. Whenever people of those races join the Society. I try to make it very clear OOCly that it’s not really recommended and you should probably racechange. If they insist, it’s something they’ve asked for.

As Zagreus mentioned, if you get a race hat and don’t flaunt that you’re secretly a merian, nobody will care. If you reincarnated into another race - nobody would care you were contemptible.

If you want to fully enjoy being a Magnagoran, frankly you probably shouldn’t play as a contemptible. There are some people that don’t care, but overall shouldn’t ask those who do to compromise the roleplay of their organization.

For myself (and I know others), I typically don’t reach out to roleplay with contemptibles as I want to keep to the roleplay of Magnagora in disliking them, but it’s really not an experience I enjoy playing and I would just rather said person not be one to begin with. I don’t particularly enjoy the idea of reaching out to a contemptible just to stomp on them. And if you’re OOCly expecting an interaction beyond getting stomped on, I’m sorry but that’s the established roleplay of generations of Magnagora - see above about reincarnating or getting a race hat. 

In short, it’s an option for those masochists that really want it - but it’s not a recommended play experience and if you feel you’re mostly being ignored in part that is because other Magnagorans don’t always enjoy the interactions there either (plus whatever time of play issues there are). That said I’m sure we would respond if we’re reached out to.

demonnic

Just my 2 cents, but the actual people on the other side of the screen should be more important than anyone's roleplay, at all times. And when actual people come out and say they actually feel bad about things which are happening to them based on discriminatory roleplay, that should be more important than preserving that discrimination in a game which is meant to be fun for everyone involved. And that's without even getting into the whole "there's enough of this bad crap in my real life I don't need it in my vidya games" side of things. 

"You can buy your way out of it" doesn't seem like a great answer, even when followed with "Or someone else might buy your way out of it for you" 

I know I personally steer clear of Mag because play pretend discrimination and meanness towards actual people (or their characters) isn't any more fun to me than the real life sort, giving or receiving. I just feel like these sorts of things come up too often and the response is often "but our ArPee" or "Justification #5 by Chanel" or "just buy a racehat and cheat the system like the rest of us" and none of those actually feel like they're helping the situation which culminated in someone feeling bad enough about something they dared risk the forums to talk about it.

Maybe that makes me a snowflake, but mostly I think it just means I care about people and their feelings more than the game or its story. And when I saw another thread from another person saying the racial discrimination in the city feels inflexible and is hitting the feelsbadman button, I felt like I have to point out that this is starting to look like a pattern, and one which involves people feeling hurt or upset and perhaps that means it's a pattern worth breaking.

Edited to Add: And if the RP is only important at such a superficial level that everyone's just buying their way around it anyway, maybe it's not actually that important?

Uzriel

All characters start with a free reincarnation and I’ve heard some people say they would buy a racehat for people stuck with a contemptible race (they are not expensive at all). I don’t think it’s at all a case of needing to pay to buy your way out. Nor is it at all analogous to RL discrimination.

If there was a way to ban picking kephera/elfen/merian if you are going Magnagora I would be all for it as then only people who really want to commit to it and take the step to reincarnate could.

Uzriel

Double post but I think it’s worth saying that most Magnagorans are not being jerks to other Magnagorans (maybe old Magnagora was like that but it’s really not like that today). So saying we are being play mean discriminating is far from the mark. 

Disliking certain races if part of the roleplay but we would mostly rather citymates just not play those races so we don’t have to deal with it and can support our citizens. Celest and Serenwilde both have their share of roleplay reasons to hate on certain races which they actively maintain today.

Afrit

If you're looking for tolerance in the religious orgs (Celest and Magnagora) you're really barking up the wrong tree. Unlike the other organisations, they have an -obligation- to be discriminatory (of race), or else potentially face consequences from the admin or the Supernals/DLs.

Ultimately I believe that an org should never feel bent towards the will of an Elder. We hate merians and elfen and kephera because of Fain because of the actions of their progenitors (we are all fully aware that shards =/= their progenitors) is dumb and overly accommodating of a being that has not sworn His undying loyalty and faith to the city (or has he? I'm under the impression that Elders would never fully and completely bind themselves to the will of a city over their own). But I'm always about mortal power > caprice of the Elders so I won't pass up the chance to plug that.

However, from what I've heard, there are even more reasons for Magnagora to hate merians in particular, because of <redacted> and Emperor Ladantine IV (and pretty much every action of Old Celest)  royally screwing everything up for everyone.

So the options are, rewrite the orgs and even the sensibilities of the Gods to be more tolerant, or just don't be an unwelcome race in your org of choice.

Or, Use the discrimination as an impetus for your character to leave and join Glomdoring, Gaudiguch or Hallifax. That's a much more believable outcome.

demonnic

Thread isn't about either of those orgs, but if it makes you feel any better I don't really think anybody should be doing it regardless of what org they're in. 

Nor did I say "This is just like r/l race discrimination" but thanks for clarifying they aren't the same thing I guess.

I am saying this keeps coming up, and seems to be hurting people, and maybe we shouldn't justify that because people are (or at least should be) more important than the roleplaying game. 

Afrit

To address Loralai specifically, I'd say that I agree that Magnagora should just ban the races rather than dangle contemptible RP as an "option". I'd wager a guess and say that the non-contemptible players in Magnagora might find some passing interest in pretending-hating you, but at the end of the day I'm sure it's extremely exhausting to go against the grain of your own sensibility to do the contemptible song and dance. To say nothing of the ultra-depressing experience of being the contemptible player.

Sapphira

Much like Uzriel, I just don't engage with contemptibles because I want to upkeep the viscanti noble rp/age old stance on merian/kephera/elfen, but also because me the player doesn't really enjoy rping stomping all over someone. I reached out to Sutekh oocly at one point to explain this and they were thankful and respectful for me letting them know (and they stopped reaching out looking for a reaction/fight). The hating those races is linked to our first patron, but also in established lore from the time after project cosmic hope, there's tidbits to be found in the Presidio. This is not just our current players liking an excuse to be dicks to certain people and hanging onto it for lolz.

Ignorance is one thing, on rolling that race in Magnagora, and I think most any of us would go out of our way to explain the stance to a character and offer them the chance to reincarnate (everyone gets a free one, not to mention they're all free until you hit level 31). If you make a choice to play that race after newbie-hood, then it's a deliberate choice to take on the laws and the IC stigma to go with it. Some people enjoy playing that, good for them. If you don't, however, then you should absolutely change the race, NOT expect the lore and characters to suddenly about face and welcome you.

Player feelings matter, and despite what people outside the org might assume or say, we actually are a largely drama free org. We tend to get along IC and OOC, we like to help each other out, there are so many very generous people who kit out newbies and oldbies alike with everything they need, we help each other level, I don't think I've seen anyone actively try to ruffle feathers outside of, sadly, contemptibles looking to be treated like they're not a contemptible.

I'd be fine with banning the races entirely. I think it's ok for orgs to have racial identities and the old race stats linked to classes (where it mattered way more) used to help cement that by actively giving benefits for being one of the org's linked races. Now they matter less mechanically, and waaaay more people have cameos and racehats are amazing - they mean you can have your mechanics and still present as whatever race you want for RP. There is frankly no need for someone to be a contemptible in Magnagora unless they want the RP. And if they want the RP, why are we being hated on for giving it?
 
Serenwilde don't let undead characters hang about the forest. It hurts my feelings that even though our alliance says I can harvest there freely, I'm asked to leave - shouldn't Seren consider MY feelings before their laws and RP? Celest ban illithoid and viscanti I believe? Shouldn't they consider the feelings of the player who wants to be there as one and let them stay and change their laws and views? Most of the game has a reason to hate/fear the taint, but as a player of a tainted race (viscanti) it hurts my feelings and I feel discriminated against, shouldn't the whole game stop and just ignore the hating taint and Magnagora part? 

I'm sorry you feel isolated, Loralai. People can and have played those races and seemed to enjoy it, but it's done with the full knowledge of being an eternal serf with no rights - but still a cog in the engine, just one we hide in the back and don't really like, but we'll use it. But as you said you are not a newbie so it's hard to feel a lot of sympathy for the situation you've landed yourself in through your choices. And there are rp options besides slapping on a hat - you can RP a redemption arc and a ritual and fully embracing the taint and transforming your race with it (makes sense to evolve into a viscanti for example). Others have come from different orgs as reviled races and done similar things. What sticks in my craw is, should players embrace the org they choose to play in and work within it, or should it be expected that orgs adapt to whatever the player wants to get out of it? 

Change may happen - I'm not saying it can't or never will, but it's something that shifts over time and with rp. The fact that anyone speaks to your character is a sign of that, old Mag it would have been unheard of, except to insult, order about or abuse. The fact that your GM is working on a plan despite the general feeling of the city, to make a path for contemptibles to progress and have tasks says a lot also, the fact that people allow you to join them hunting or fighting or dump power on you or whatever else speaks of the change that has happened over many years. Nothing is stopping the characters from going around individuals, garnering support, slipping in how archaic the laws are, look how good a cog I am maybe contemptibles can be reformed and accepted, and working on changing the laws, have people really consider their stance, etc. I just think it's unfair to expect us to suddenly go 'ok sorry being contemptible is unfun, let's just scrap it and love all the races'. How about, if its not your kind of fun rping as a contemptible, you change that status, either by changing your race (easy option) or trying to rp and bring about change (uphill battle but not impossible). Sutekh tried to force our hands and contest for GM. If he hadn't, and had kept chipping away for rights, things may well look different. He is the reason contemptibles can work on the epic, for example, and why they can have a lich seed in certain situations.

Sapphira

Sorry double post. It just ocurred to me that the recommended/not recommended races for orgs don't show up in the intro anymore. Maybe this is something that needs to return so newbies make informed racial choices in their orgs.

Lawrence

Totally hiring contemptible servants to do my quest setups for me btw

Loralai

Zagreus said:

Fain even years after his departure certainly lives up to his teachings of conflict, hatred, and greed. He and his history are quite obviously the genesis of the policy.

I don't think bringing the Sutekh topic into this conversation does you any favors. There's a lot to unpack that I won't get into, but doubling down on being contemptible race publicly is not a good example for your argument. Mag is not going to just forget its RP because a person thinks their desires weigh more heavily than centuries of Mag RP and their Elder's wishes. They, like you by your own words, are not newbies. So it appears you enter into that race and RP with knowledge of how they are treated. It strikes me as odd to walk into a punch and then question to the punch you knew was coming.

I really don't want to interact with most people in Mag, because of the feeling that I'm just going to be pissing them off by doing so. 
I don't feel that way, for what it's worth. Interacting is more than welcome. I'd offer we just don't want a contemptible race flexing on their contemptible race and waving it around as if we should care. Maggots belong in the dirt, not riding on a tainted gas cloud with champagne.

If Magnagorans, generally, feel that there is no way that anyone could play a merian, kephera, or elfen in an interesting way and be of some benefit to the city... then just ban those races.
I don't feel that way. Many can and have played those races with interesting RP and also have contributed. Those that do have to accept that they will not get advancement opportunities in the city. Until Sutekh went off the deep end and tried to flex their racial RP to contest/advance in cityrank, they would have been a great example of such.

NPCs generally now respect race hats. Generally players respect race hats. There are a couple methods to check true race, but no one cares to in my experience. If your aim is to solve a problem rather than causing a stir: If you're absolutely set on being one of those races and choose not to change, buy a race hat, don't "flex" contemptible RP, and live your best life would be my advice. (Any number of Mags would just buy it for you, if that's an issue.) If you don't think this is possible... I'm merian most of the time for hunting bonuses (THE HORROR!)... If Fain came back tomorrow, I'd point at my race hat (and let's be real, the 50 other mask-like artifacts covering the face) and say, "Surely the mighty Red Masque, whose Masque is not really as such, would not begrudge me a myriad of secrets as well, right Lord?"

Fair enough. I'm not saying the roleplay needs to change, necessarily. It just has been my perception - which could be wrong - that it's not wanted for people to do this. I don't bring up Sutekh as an example for why things should change, but only as to why I feel that there's tension. 

Loralai

Uzriel said:

For myself (and I know others), I typically don’t reach out to roleplay with contemptibles as I want to keep to the roleplay of Magnagora in disliking them, but it’s really not an experience I enjoy playing and I would just rather said person not be one to begin with. I don’t particularly enjoy the idea of reaching out to a contemptible just to stomp on them. And if you’re OOCly expecting an interaction beyond getting stomped on, I’m sorry but that’s the established roleplay of generations of Magnagora - see above about reincarnating or getting a race hat. 

Right, and this is the question I have: If a good number/majority of Magnagoran players don't enjoy that interaction (which is reasonable) why allow it as an option? I don't think it has to be, and I don't think anyone has to roleplay something they dislike.

Loralai

demonnic said:

Just my 2 cents, but the actual people on the other side of the screen should be more important than anyone's roleplay, at all times. And when actual people come out and say they actually feel bad about things which are happening to them based on discriminatory roleplay, that should be more important than preserving that discrimination in a game which is meant to be fun for everyone involved. And that's without even getting into the whole "there's enough of this bad crap in my real life I don't need it in my vidya games" side of things. 

"You can buy your way out of it" doesn't seem like a great answer, even when followed with "Or someone else might buy your way out of it for you" 

I know I personally steer clear of Mag because play pretend discrimination and meanness towards actual people (or their characters) isn't any more fun to me than the real life sort, giving or receiving. I just feel like these sorts of things come up too often and the response is often "but our ArPee" or "Justification #5 by Chanel" or "just buy a racehat and cheat the system like the rest of us" and none of those actually feel like they're helping the situation which culminated in someone feeling bad enough about something they dared risk the forums to talk about it.

Maybe that makes me a snowflake, but mostly I think it just means I care about people and their feelings more than the game or its story. And when I saw another thread from another person saying the racial discrimination in the city feels inflexible and is hitting the feelsbadman button, I felt like I have to point out that this is starting to look like a pattern, and one which involves people feeling hurt or upset and perhaps that means it's a pattern worth breaking.

Edited to Add: And if the RP is only important at such a superficial level that everyone's just buying their way around it anyway, maybe it's not actually that important?

Ok, hold on. I don't think anyone in Mag has been particularly mean and most of them don't seem to want to play up the racial discrimination for at least as long as I've been playing. My frustration is more not knowing what the role is meant for and not having anything to do. The question is only whether it is meaningful, to have an option to 'be discriminated against' if no one enjoys it. That doesn't mean changing the laws to allow progression, it could mean banning those races or approaching it some other way. 

My feelings are not hurt, I promise. If anything I've been surprised how nice most people have been.

Loralai

Uzriel said:

Double lost but I think it’s worth saying that most Magnagorans are not being jerks to other Magnagorans (maybe old Magnagora was like that but it’s really not like that today). So saying we are being play mean discriminating is far from the mark. 

Disliking certain races if part of the roleplay but we would mostly rather citymates just not play those races so we don’t have to deal with it and can support our citizens. Celest and Serenwilde both have their share of roleplay reasons to hate on certain races which they actively maintain today.

I believe both Serenwilde and Celest ban at least Illithoids outright, and also Viscanti for at least Celest. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Loralai

Afrit said:

If you're looking for tolerance in the religious orgs (Celest and Magnagora) you're really barking up the wrong tree. Unlike the other organisations, they have an -obligation- to be discriminatory (of race), or else potentially face consequences from the admin or the Supernals/DLs.

So the options are, rewrite the orgs and even the sensibilities of the Gods to be more tolerant, or just don't be an unwelcome race in your org of choice.

Or, Use the discrimination as an impetus for your character to leave and join Glomdoring, Gaudiguch or Hallifax. That's a much more believable outcome.

I'm not looking for tolerance. I'm asking whether it is worthwhile to allow those races at all. Side note, why do you assume I can't I join Serenwilde or Celest...?

Loralai

Sapphira said:

I'd be fine with banning the races entirely. I think it's ok for orgs to have racial identities and the old race stats linked to classes (where it mattered way more) used to help cement that by actively giving benefits for being one of the org's linked races. Now they matter less mechanically, and waaaay more people have cameos and racehats are amazing - they mean you can have your mechanics and still present as whatever race you want for RP. There is frankly no need for someone to be a contemptible in Magnagora unless they want the RP. And if they want the RP, why are we being hated on for giving it?
 

I agree.

I'm sorry you feel isolated, Loralai. People can and have played those races and seemed to enjoy it, but it's done with the full knowledge of being an eternal serf with no rights - but still a cog in the engine, just one we hide in the back and don't really like, but we'll use it. But as you said you are not a newbie so it's hard to feel a lot of sympathy for the situation you've landed yourself in through your choices. And there are rp options besides slapping on a hat - you can RP a redemption arc and a ritual and fully embracing the taint and transforming your race with it (makes sense to evolve into a viscanti for example). Others have come from different orgs as reviled races and done similar things. What sticks in my craw is, should players embrace the org they choose to play in and work within it, or should it be expected that orgs adapt to whatever the player wants to get out of it? 

I'm really not asking for sympathy here. I'd be fine rping some kind of race change, eventually. If what you're saying here though, is that it's not possible to both embrace the org and play a contemptible race, then the option probably shouldn't exist.

Change may happen - I'm not saying it can't or never will, but it's something that shifts over time and with rp. The fact that anyone speaks to your character is a sign of that, old Mag it would have been unheard of, except to insult, order about or abuse. The fact that your GM is working on a plan despite the general feeling of the city, to make a path for contemptibles to progress and have tasks says a lot also, the fact that people allow you to join them hunting or fighting or dump power on you or whatever else speaks of the change that has happened over many years. Nothing is stopping the characters from going around individuals, garnering support, slipping in how archaic the laws are, look how good a cog I am maybe contemptibles can be reformed and accepted, and working on changing the laws, have people really consider their stance, etc. I just think it's unfair to expect us to suddenly go 'ok sorry being contemptible is unfun, let's just scrap it and love all the races'. How about, if its not your kind of fun rping as a contemptible, you change that status, either by changing your race (easy option) or trying to rp and bring about change (uphill battle but not impossible). Sutekh tried to force our hands and contest for GM. If he hadn't, and had kept chipping away for rights, things may well look different. He is the reason contemptibles can work on the epic, for example, and why they can have a lich seed in certain situations.

I think this is probably true, wrt to oldMag. I have vague memories of that time period. Here and now, though, it seems to be more of a sensitive issue and people are shying away from wanting it at all. I'm not sure I believe you that anything would continue to change, but it's not really the issue anyway. You're assuming I'm complaining about things I'm not. I have nearly max power at the moment, and I know how to get more easily enough. I don't have any complaints about Shango, or anyone else in Mag as far as how I've been treated.

Loralai

Sapphira said:

Sorry double post. It just ocurred to me that the recommended/not recommended races for orgs don't show up in the intro anymore. Maybe this is something that needs to return so newbies make informed racial choices in their orgs.

I didn't even realize that, but yeah.

Sapphira

It's an option because some people enjoy the roleplay, I suspect. And that we are thus less bigoted than Celest (/rp) and their outright bans. Contemptibles can have a chance to 'prove' themselves and be good cogs, or redemption arc, what have you, or stay scum-dwellers if people are into that. An outright ban doesn't give anyone options to even rp running away from the servitude into freedom elsewhere by choice. 

However - we do make it clear what the situation is for people going that route. It feels like we've had a lot of contemptibles lately which probably adds to the apathy. Another snowflake who would rather be the anomaly than just a regular citizen. I'm not saying that's you or even anyone, but it can end up feeling that way when it's flavour of the month (and at one point I want to say we had 3-4 logging in regularly which is actually a lot).

If you're playing a contemptible because you thought Mag players would want one, then yeah no wonder you're disappointed. Again we try to make it very clear to people the status they're buying into choosing those races - but if someone is adamant they want to be the perpetual lower level, more power to em, grovel away. But I don't think many if any current players in Mag are particularly interested in engaging hardcore in that sort of story, my perception on the people I know anyway. If you were interested in Loralai looking for arcane secrets and necromantic rituals to purge her inferior form and embrace the taint etc etc I'd be highly intrigued and would enjoy the experimenting and the like, if I were approached. I can't speak for others but for myself, not interested in your every day tolerating a contemptible rp and I think others may be the same. If anything, we like to help and boost up our kiddos so it's probably frustrating knowing you are ever going to be on the lower level as a merian even if the players don't really like it, does that make sense?

As for non-newbie players, there used to be big warnings when you tried to choose races that were considered bad for the org (ie contemptibles for Mag, Halli had a warning for dracnari, Celest warned against viscanti and illithoid etc) and racially aligned races were strongly recommended. This might be something we should bring to the admin's attention, it was a good part of the old intro.

Loralai

Sapphira said:

It's an option because some people enjoy the roleplay, I suspect. And that we are thus less bigoted than Celest (/rp) and their outright bans. Contemptibles can have a chance to 'prove' themselves and be good cogs, or redemption arc, what have you, or stay scum-dwellers if people are into that. An outright ban doesn't give anyone options to even rp running away from the servitude into freedom elsewhere by choice. 

However - we do make it clear what the situation is for people going that route. It feels like we've had a lot of contemptibles lately which probably adds to the apathy. Another snowflake who would rather be the anomaly than just a regular citizen. I'm not saying that's you or even anyone, but it can end up feeling that way when it's flavour of the month (and at one point I want to say we had 3-4 logging in regularly which is actually a lot).

If you're playing a contemptible because you thought Mag players would want one, then yeah no wonder you're disappointed. Again we try to make it very clear to people the status they're buying into choosing those races - but if someone is adamant they want to be the perpetual lower level, more power to em, grovel away. But I don't think many if any current players in Mag are particularly interested in engaging hardcore in that sort of story, my perception on the people I know anyway. If you were interested in Loralai looking for arcane secrets and necromantic rituals to purge her inferior form and embrace the taint etc etc I'd be highly intrigued and would enjoy the experimenting and the like, if I were approached. I can't speak for others but for myself, not interested in your every day tolerating a contemptible rp and I think others may be the same. If anything, we like to help and boost up our kiddos so it's probably frustrating knowing you are ever going to be on the lower level as a merian even if the players don't really like it, does that make sense?

As for non-newbie players, there used to be big warnings when you tried to choose races that were considered bad for the org (ie contemptibles for Mag, Halli had a warning for dracnari, Celest warned against viscanti and illithoid etc) and racially aligned races were strongly recommended. This might be something we should bring to the admin's attention, it was a good part of the old intro.

Well, people can play a 'servant' type character regardless of what race they are or what the laws of the city are. If the roleplay of redeeming one is actually something people enjoy, I can see the point to it then. But I've known people in other IRE games who resent those kinds of redemption arcs on an ooc level, because of the 'special snowflake' thing.

It is odd that there were so many recently. Dunno what that's about, I only heard of the one.

" you thought Mag players would want one" Mm kind of an odd way to phrase it imo. I think taking risks and trying different roleplay is not a bad thing. But if there is a concept within an entire org that no one wants to play into, it probably shouldn't exist. Guild and city rank don't mean a great deal to me, at least on this character. Your response does at least confirm that my perception is correct.

I'm not a newbie, and I remember those warnings. It should be brought back, but I also think Mag should ban the races.

Malayn

Loralai said:

I'm not a newbie, and I remember those warnings. It should be brought back, but I also think Mag should ban the races.

Magnagora would not ban something that can be beneficial, that is why contemptible status exists. You can serve without being a more ideal form, so long as you work for the Engine, and acknowledge that your status is naturally lower. A ban would be denying a tool the city could make use of. There is reason we do not implement complete bans, while more zealous organizations do.

Short of being forced to change an incredibly long standing rule or an exceptional amount of RP, I do not believe we would just up and change that.

Afrit

Loralai said:

Afrit said:

If you're looking for tolerance in the religious orgs (Celest and Magnagora) you're really barking up the wrong tree. Unlike the other organisations, they have an -obligation- to be discriminatory (of race), or else potentially face consequences from the admin or the Supernals/DLs.

So the options are, rewrite the orgs and even the sensibilities of the Gods to be more tolerant, or just don't be an unwelcome race in your org of choice.

Or, Use the discrimination as an impetus for your character to leave and join Glomdoring, Gaudiguch or Hallifax. That's a much more believable outcome.

I'm not looking for tolerance. I'm asking whether it is worthwhile to allow those races at all. Side note, why do you assume I can't I join Serenwilde or Celest...?

I meant that as a general "you". After I wrote my first post I realized I completely forgot to address the OP, so I made another one. The reason I listed those orgs is because none of them have any problems with any race. Celest bans viscanti and illithoid, Serenwilde...used to not like viscanti, but I believe they developed a ritual for Mother Moon to purify them symbolically? Or something? Dunno about their stance on illithoid. And then Magnagora is Magnagora.

Loralai

Malayn said:

Loralai said:

I'm not a newbie, and I remember those warnings. It should be brought back, but I also think Mag should ban the races.

Magnagora would not ban something that can be beneficial, that is why contemptible status exists. You can serve without being a more ideal form, so long as you work for the Engine, and acknowledge that your status is naturally lower. A ban would be denying a tool the city could make use of. There is reason we do not implement complete bans, while more zealous organizations do.

Short of being forced to change an incredibly long standing rule or an exceptional amount of RP, I do not believe we would just up and change that.

Fair enough. I don't agree, but it's a reasonable perspective.

Loralai

Afrit said:

Loralai said:

Afrit said:

If you're looking for tolerance in the religious orgs (Celest and Magnagora) you're really barking up the wrong tree. Unlike the other organisations, they have an -obligation- to be discriminatory (of race), or else potentially face consequences from the admin or the Supernals/DLs.

So the options are, rewrite the orgs and even the sensibilities of the Gods to be more tolerant, or just don't be an unwelcome race in your org of choice.

Or, Use the discrimination as an impetus for your character to leave and join Glomdoring, Gaudiguch or Hallifax. That's a much more believable outcome.

I'm not looking for tolerance. I'm asking whether it is worthwhile to allow those races at all. Side note, why do you assume I can't I join Serenwilde or Celest...?

I meant that as a general "you". After I wrote my first post I realized I completely forgot to address the OP, so I made another one. The reason I listed those orgs is because none of them have any problems with any race. Celest bans viscanti and illithoid, Serenwilde...used to not like viscanti, but I believe they developed a ritual for Mother Moon to purify them symbolically? Or something? Dunno about their stance on illithoid. And then Magnagora is Magnagora.

Ah ok. I'm pretty sure Serenwilde bans Illithoids too now, and I'm not sure if they still do anything for Viscanti.

Shango

If you wait a bit, I am working on an unofficial Path for contemptibles for just that very reason >_> Got some flak for my desire to do so, but tis my Guild so do what I want. Teaching a potentially new player, who is a race unable to progress normally, how to still be useful and engaged is an ideal I have in mind for it. But you are not neglected at least...just hadn't really come up as a concern before to need such a path, then the latest drama that had happened, etc etc. But I AM working on it, only have a rough idea of about 4 ranks out of the 10 so far. Also with varying titles starting with the Fledgling then Contemptible, progressing to Despicable, before moving towards better quality. Dreadlord of Scourge, or Scourgelord being a good match for the 10th rank to match the other Paths Dreadlord while being unique enough to stand out and still reflect the work put in. Just need a bit of time, and maybe IG help towards such.

Make Fain have a player again Would work well to fix such things, could even RP with Him to earn exceptional status, maybe through service, combat prowess, whatever, and be able to progress as normal if starting as contemptible to get the best of both RPs including the 'redemption' aspect?