New Shadowdancer Primary

Thul

Mother Night lay terribly wounded, and Nocht saw no choice. Gathering the Shadowdancers around Him, He traveled to furthest reaches of the Ethereal, where Night was first awoken. There, with the aid of Night’s faithful, He spoke the words of Awakening to restore Night, and in so doing blessed the wiccans with a fragment of the Sixth Circle arts. So empowered, the Shadowdancers learned to Awaken their own darkness, and brought to life their own shadows. A grateful Mother Night blessed these nascent shadows with great and terrible purpose: to serve as her personal emissaries alongside their awakeners. So came the creation of the Tahvotai, or in the fae tongue, the Bringers of the Grim Duty.

Tahvotai is a specialization of Nature available to the Shadowdancers, which may be taken in place of Wicca. The wiccans who walk the path of the Tahvotai eschew the lesser fae; truly, such fae are too terrified to stand in the wiccan’s presence overlong. Instead, the wiccan acts as Mother Night’s personal emissary, wielding greater powers of darkness and assisted by his or her own animated shadow, which harries enemies near and far.

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Tahvotai: Walk with the dread authority of Mother Night. (Master)

Dusk: Darkness ever surrounds you. (Master +33)

Smother: Suffocate the impertinent with bands of shadow. (Master +66)

Detach: Awaken the darkness at your side. (Gifted)

ShadowSpy: Know what the darkness knows. (Gifted +33)

NightDread: Bring fear to those who stand against Night. (Gifted +66)

Possession: Send forth your shadow to harry a foe. (Expert)

ShadowRecall: Call your darkness back to your side. (Expert)

Envelop: Show them the true power of darkness. (Expert +50)

ShadowStitch: Tether them to you with bonds of shadow. (Virtuoso)

ShadowTangle: There’s no escaping Mother Night’s wrath. (Virtuoso +33)

Nightfall: Spread your darkness over a greater area. (Virtuoso +66)

Abduction: Make your foes vanish in the darkness. (Fabled)

Quiver: Send shadowy shudders through their souls. (Fabled +33)

Merge: Become one with your shadow once more. (Fabled +66)

Wayang: Your shadow makes a puppet from the dead. (Mythical)

Assumption: Animate the corpse before it hits the ground. (Mythical +25)

Expel: Reject the darkness given to you by others. (Mythical +50)

Consume: Bring your foes into the embrace of Mother Night. (Mythical +75)

Shazbat: The Word of Dismissal annihilates all. (Transcendent)

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TAHVOTAI – TAHVOTAI

Syntax: SHADOWCALL TAHVOTAI

Syntax: FLY, LAND

You awaken the darkness that is ever a part of you, and take up the mantle of Mother Night’s emissary. The mantle of darkness offers a few basic benefits, including the gift of flight and a significant bonus to Weakening influence. Additionally, none may claim your shadow for their own.

TAHVOTAI – DUSK

Syntax: SHADOWCALL DUSK

SHADOWCALL DUSK DISMISS

Where the Tahvotai are, Mother Night is. While Dusk is active, the wiccan’s room is considered to be outdoors, forest, and night.

TAHVOTAI – SMOTHER

Syntax: SHADOWCALL SMOTHER <target>

Damage Type: 100% Asphyxiation

You may hurl a ball of living liquid shadow at your foes, strangling them. This may be used against denizens and adventurers both. Against adventurers, Smother also reduces the time remaining on the HOLD BREATH defense.

TAHVOTAI – DETACH

Syntax: SHADOWCALL DETACH

Syntax: SHADOWCALL REJOIN (to dismiss from same room)

Power: 5 (Master Ravenwood Tree), 0 on Ethereal Glomdoring.

Your awakened shadow may now separate from you and do your bidding. Your shadow is automatically invisible except in areas of great light and may be ordered to attack. The shadow’s claws do excoro damage and blind on each strike.BlackEmissary – Master : Allows flight, bonus to Weaken influence. Cannot have your shadow stolen.

(Areas of great light include natural daylight, Moonlit areas, areas with a chandelier, and other abilities as appropriate. Outside of these areas, the shadow is persistently cloaked.)

TAHVOTAI – SHADOWSPY

Syntax: SHADOWCALL LOOK

Syntax: SHADOWTRANCE (to enter roaming shadow mode)

Power: 1 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Syntax: SHADOWTRANCE END (to end roaming shadow mode)

You know what the darkness knows. Through your connection to your shadow, you may catch a quick glimpse of what is in the room where your shadow resides. Alternatively, you may enter the Shadow Trance, taking over the body and senses of your shadow, and walk unseen through the darkness. While in the Shadow Trance, you constantly drain mana. Taking damage immediately ends the shadow trance.

TAHVOTAI – NIGHTDREAD

Syntax: SHADOWCALL NIGHTDREAD

The Tahvotai bring with them the very fear of Mother Night herself. While in the wiccan’s area, enemies of the wiccan suffer periodic mana drain while they are outdoors in darkness.

TAHVOTAI – POSSESSION

Syntax: SHADOWCALL POSSESSION <target>

Power: 3 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Linking her shadow with an unfortunate victim, the wiccan may harry a foe so long as he stays under the gaze of Mother Night. While so possessed, the victim suffers from the shadow’s periodic attacks, and may be subject to more advanced techniques later on. Additionally, the shadow may not be targeted in this state. Possession lasts until the victim can reach an area of great light for five seconds.

This ability may be activated from the Shadow Trance.

TAHVOTAI – SHADOWRECALL

Syntax: SHADOWCALL RECALL

You may recall your shadow to your side with but a word. This ends Possession.

TAHVOTAI – ENVELOP

Syntax: SHADOWCALL ENVELOP <target>

Damage: 50% Asphyxiation, 50% Psychic

A target suffering from blindness sees nothing but the majesty of Mother Night. Speaking words of power to a target so afflicted, the wiccan causes blackout, damage and mana drain.

TAHVOTAI – SHADOWSTITCH

Syntax: SHADOWCALL STITCH <target>

Syntax: SHADOWCALL UNSTITCH (to release)

Power: 3 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

With a word, your shadow forms a thick bond between you and a victim, forcibly holding you together. While the Shadow Stitch persists, neither you or the target may willingly leave the room, and you both gain a significant amount of rooting. During this time, your shadow is occupied and may not attack or use any advanced abilities.

TAHVOTAI – SHADOWTANGLE

Syntax: SHADOWCALL TANGLE <target>

Syntax: SHADOWCALL TANGLE (targets Possessed)

You may order your shadow to gather around a victim’s feet, binding him in chains of darkness. If your target is afflicted with Possession, you may call on this ability from outside your room, as long as your target is outside and in darkness.

TAHVOTAI – NIGHTFALL

Syntax: SHADOWCALL NIGHTFALL (3|5)

Power: 3 or 5 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Mother Night’s reach is long and terrible, and with an extension of the wiccan’s will, she may spread her own reach as well. Nightfall increases the radius of the Dusk aura for a limited amount of time. For 3 power, the reach is extended by one room. For 5 power, the duration of the increased reach is shorter, but the aura extends for two rooms.

TAHVOTAI – ABDUCTION

Syntax: SHADOWCALL ABDUCTION <target>

Power: 1 (Master Ravenwood Tree) or free

Since the beginning of the First World, things have vanished forever into the darkness. The wiccan may call upon this power to deliver her enemies to her. While a target is outdoors, in darkness, and in the same area as the wiccan, he is vulnerable to being instantly dragged through the darkness to the wiccan’s location. If the target is Possessed, this costs no power.

During the night of the New Moon, the reach of Abduction extends to the entire continent.

(Stopped by shield, monolith, and areas of great light. Aggressive action.)

TAHVOTAI – QUIVER

Syntax: SHADOWCALL QUIVER

Damage: 50% Excoro, 50% Psychic

The wiccan may use her shadow to send shudders through a Possessed victim’s body and soul, causing damage, mana drain and paralysis.

TAHVOTAI – MERGE

Syntax: SHADOWCALL MERGE

The wiccan and her shadow are as one, and this power is a reflection of that. With a moment’s concentration, she appears at the location of her shadow, rejoining it.

TAHVOTAI – WAYANG

Syntax: SHADOWCALL WAYANG <corpse>

Power: 2 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Sometimes, the need for subtlety is past. With this grim ability, the wiccan can send her shadow into the body of a corpse, making it visible and vulnerable to attack, but granting it greater durability and extra abilities based on the archetype of the corpse used. This renders the corpse in question useless for any other purpose.

Warrior: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Cutting 50% Excoro, and Stun in addition to blinding.

Mage: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Psychic 50% Excoro, and it periodically casts Reflection on the wiccan.

Druid: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Poison 50% Excoro, and it Entangles its target in addition to blinding.

Wiccan: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Magic 50% Excoro, and it causes an additional mental affliction in addition to blinding.

Guardian: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Fire 50% Excoro, and it causes Aeon in addition to blinding.

Bard: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Psychic 50% Excoro, and the wiccan and her allies gain level 1 regeneration to health, mana, and ego.

Monk: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Blunt 50% Excoro, and it causes broken bones in addition to blinding.

TAHVOTAI – ASSUMPTION

Syntax: SHADOWCALL ASSUMPTION

Power: 4 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

If your shadow is already possessing a dead body, there’s no need to wait to let it take over. Sending power to your shadow, you order it to stand ready to inhabit its soon-to-be corpse. If the target of the Possession dies before he can get rid of your shadow, his corpse is immediately animated with Wayang.

TAHVOTAI – EXPEL

Syntax: Passive

The wiccan has already mastered her own darkness. The petty attempts by others to bring darkness upon her are at best, laughable. A wiccan with this ability gains a special Expel balance. If the wiccan would be afflicted with Blackout while this balance is free, the wiccan instead generates a minor shadow which absorbs the damage of the next attack against her.

TAHVOTAI – CONSUME

Syntax: SHADOWCALL CONSUME

Power: 4 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Calling on the wrath of Mother Night to utterly consume the weak, the wiccan merges her shadow with the victim’s inner darkness, drowning the target in shadow. Consume instantly kills a target who is Possessed by the wiccan, at 50% or lower mana, and either blind or suffering from blackout.

TAHVOTAI – SHAZBAT

Syntax: SHADOWCALL SHAZBAT (to destroy a Wayang)

Syntax: SHADOWCALL SHAZBATLAM (to destroy yourself)

Power: 10 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Damage: 100% Excoro

Sometimes there’s nothing for it. Filling her shadow with the spite and hatred of Mother Night, the wiccan overloads it with destructive energies… with terrible results. There is only a few seconds’ warning before the shadow explodes in a black cataclysm of power, obliterating friend and foe alike.

This technique may be activated either through a Wayang, or if the wiccan is particularly desperate, using her own body. In the latter case, her sacrifice also causes the blast to go through even the toughest shields.

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Author’s Note: I felt inspired to write this up after listening to a clansmate’s complaints about wiccans not having any unique skillsets, and the general… non-Primaryness of their Primary. Wrote this as a general creative exercise, not sure exactly how balanced or effective this skillset would actually be, since I’ve never done Guardian or Wiccan. I’m pretty sure at least one of the comments below is gonna be “lulzOPno.” But in theory… the idea is that you trade off the versatility and affliction volume and variety of the Wicca fae for greater hindering, better ability to keep your opponents close, and a bit of infiltration ability I felt was appropriate to the Mother of Shadows.

If this skillset existed, there would be a need for an equivalent Moondancer specialization of Nature. I have no idea where to even begin with that one.

Anyway, commence criticism.

Majanishi

lulzOPno

But seriously, I think it's got great potential but it does seem a little unbalanced. I could point out a few points, but I'm not a strong combatant, let alone a Guardian, so I'll let someone else who is more experienced with it to point the changes that may need to happen.

As for a Moon version, I could think of a couple of things. I don't know as that I have the gonads to write up a full skillset with any accuracy, but I can lend some roleplay direction toward how Moon might grant other powers. It seems with your idea here that you focus on the actual aspects of Mother Night rather than the magic granted by simple wiccan devotion to her. It might be the same with Mother Moon... the power would be derived in some way from the powers of the moon. The Moon totems specialization already covers a lot of Moon based skills though, and the Night specialization for totems is the same for Night, so I don't know how much overlap there should be.

Daedalion

I like the idea and even most of the skills, with the exception of shadowstitch (uncurable perfectfifth), abduction (instant area summon for 1 power?), wayang (no to ent passive aeon, that's only okay for champ pets) and shazbat (which seems to be dreadfully similar to achaea holocaust bomb, ridiculously op skill).

Majanishi

Detach was what stood out to me. Why have such a steep cost on Prime but no cost on Ethereal? The skill allows you to detach your shadow, send it out to claw people in other rooms, and afflict with those claws. I think on ethereal it should cost 2, maybe 3 power. I'd go with 2 myself I think.

Eritheyl

ShadowStitch does seem a little iffy to me, as well. However, the flavour here is absolutely delicious. 10/10 would alt.

Urfion

Thul said:

TAHVOTAI – DUSK

Syntax: SHADOWCALL DUSK

SHADOWCALL DUSK DISMISS

Where the Tahvotai are, Mother Night is. While Dusk is active, the wiccan’s room is considered to be outdoors, forest, and night.

You may want to note that the room only counts as outdoors/forest/night for the Wiccan himself, lest druids and particularly shamans be able to take advantage of abilities in areas they aren't intended to.

TAHVOTAI – DETACH

Syntax: SHADOWCALL DETACH

Syntax: SHADOWCALL REJOIN (to dismiss from same room)

Power: 5 (Master Ravenwood Tree), 0 on Ethereal Glomdoring.

Your awakened shadow may now separate from you and do your bidding. Your shadow is automatically invisible except in areas of great light and may be ordered to attack. The shadow’s claws do excoro damage and blind on each strike.

(Areas of great light include natural daylight, Moonlit areas, areas with a chandelier, and other abilities as appropriate. Outside of these areas, the shadow is persistently cloaked.)

Assuming this does relatively minor damage and can only hit as often as a fae, no problem here. Power cost seems a bit steep. Reduce to 1-2 depending on how tanky the shadow is.

TAHVOTAI – NIGHTDREAD

Syntax: SHADOWCALL NIGHTDREAD

The Tahvotai bring with them the very fear of Mother Night herself. While in the wiccan’s area, enemies of the wiccan suffer periodic mana drain while they are outdoors in darkness.

Passive mana drain on all enemies in the area for no power cost? Yeah right. If you want to keep this skill, it needs a substantial power cost, needs to hit everybody (like LongNight), and needs to only hit for very minor mana drain (no more than 5% or so).

TAHVOTAI – POSSESSION

Syntax: SHADOWCALL POSSESSION <target>

Power: 3 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Linking her shadow with an unfortunate victim, the wiccan may harry a foe so long as he stays under the gaze of Mother Night. While so possessed, the victim suffers from the shadow’s periodic attacks, and may be subject to more advanced techniques later on. Additionally, the shadow may not be targeted in this state. Possession lasts until the victim can reach an area of great light for five seconds.

This ability may be activated from the Shadow Trance.

Needs to also either end on a (relatively short) timer, or allow the victim to cure it (possibly by igniting self). There are too many situations were leaving the area to find a lit room isn't viable.

TAHVOTAI – ENVELOP

Syntax: SHADOWCALL ENVELOP <target>

Damage: 50% Asphyxiation, 50% Psychic

A target suffering from blindness sees nothing but the majesty of Mother Night. Speaking words of power to a target so afflicted, the wiccan causes blackout, damage and mana drain.

This would need to do substantially less damage than Smother (probably just under 1000 for a fairly high Int character), a standard 10%ish mana drain, and a short (1-1.5 second) blackout.

TAHVOTAI – SHADOWSTITCH

Syntax: SHADOWCALL STITCH <target>

Syntax: SHADOWCALL UNSTITCH (to release)

Power: 3 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

With a word, your shadow forms a thick bond between you and a victim, forcibly holding you together. While the Shadow Stitch persists, neither you or the target may willingly leave the room, and you both gain a significant amount of rooting. During this time, your shadow is occupied and may not attack or use any advanced abilities.

Gah! No! This absolutely needs to be curable. My suggestion is Ignite self, since that would give the Shadowdancer a brief time to hinder his opponent before they could leave the room after curing. In exchange, drop the power cost to 1.

TAHVOTAI – SHADOWTANGLE

Syntax: SHADOWCALL TANGLE <target>

Syntax: SHADOWCALL TANGLE (targets Possessed)

You may order your shadow to gather around a victim’s feet, binding him in chains of darkness. If your target is afflicted with Possession, you may call on this ability from outside your room, as long as your target is outside and in darkness.

What exactly does this do? Shackles? If you want this to be usable over Possession, it should either have a power cost to use over a distance (maybe 2), or Possession should be curable.

TAHVOTAI – NIGHTFALL

Syntax: SHADOWCALL NIGHTFALL (3|5)

Power: 3 or 5 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Mother Night’s reach is long and terrible, and with an extension of the wiccan’s will, she may spread her own reach as well. Nightfall increases the radius of the Dusk aura for a limited amount of time. For 3 power, the reach is extended by one room. For 5 power, the duration of the increased reach is shorter, but the aura extends for two rooms.

So long as the same limitations outlined in Dusk apply here, this is fine.

TAHVOTAI – ABDUCTION

Syntax: SHADOWCALL ABDUCTION <target>

Power: 1 (Master Ravenwood Tree) or free

Since the beginning of the First World, things have vanished forever into the darkness. The wiccan may call upon this power to deliver her enemies to her. While a target is outdoors, in darkness, and in the same area as the wiccan, he is vulnerable to being instantly dragged through the darkness to the wiccan’s location. If the target is Possessed, this costs no power.

During the night of the New Moon, the reach of Abduction extends to the entire continent.

(Stopped by shield, monolith, and areas of great light. Aggressive action.)

Absolutely no to over continent abduction. I can't even think of any limitations that would make such an ability fair. As it is, free, quick summon on area is painfully OP. In the event that Possession is made curable, allow summoning only the possessed victim for 1 power. Otherwise, this probably needs to go, or needs some serious restrictions.

TAHVOTAI – QUIVER

Syntax: SHADOWCALL QUIVER

Damage: 50% Excoro, 50% Psychic

The wiccan may use her shadow to send shudders through a Possessed victim’s body and soul, causing damage, mana drain and paralysis.

Same damage notes for Envelope apply here.

TAHVOTAI – MERGE

Syntax: SHADOWCALL MERGE

The wiccan and her shadow are as one, and this power is a reflection of that. With a moment’s concentration, she appears at the location of her shadow, rejoining it.

I suggest this be same area only, and be blocked by everything that blocks Teleport.

TAHVOTAI – WAYANG

Syntax: SHADOWCALL WAYANG <corpse>

Power: 2 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Sometimes, the need for subtlety is past. With this grim ability, the wiccan can send her shadow into the body of a corpse, making it visible and vulnerable to attack, but granting it greater durability and extra abilities based on the archetype of the corpse used. This renders the corpse in question useless for any other purpose.

Warrior: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Cutting 50% Excoro, and Stun in addition to blinding.

Mage: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Psychic 50% Excoro, and it periodically casts Reflection on the wiccan.

Druid: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Poison 50% Excoro, and it Entangles its target in addition to blinding.

Wiccan: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Magic 50% Excoro, and it causes an additional mental affliction in addition to blinding.

Guardian: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Fire 50% Excoro, and it causes Aeon in addition to blinding.

Bard: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Psychic 50% Excoro, and the wiccan and her allies gain level 1 regeneration to health, mana, and ego.

Monk: The shadow’s attacks become 50% Blunt 50% Excoro, and it causes broken bones in addition to blinding.

I don't like this ability at all, for several reasons. First, some of these are substantially better than others, second, requiring the SD to find not only a player corpse, but the player corpse of a particular archetype in order to use an ability would be very frustrating. I suggest instead that the ability simply cost 2 power, disallow Possession as well as any abilities keyed off of possession, and allow shadow attacks to hit with a mental aff as well as blind for the next 10 attacks, and possibly speed up the shadow for those 10 attacks.

TAHVOTAI – ASSUMPTION

Syntax: SHADOWCALL ASSUMPTION

Power: 4 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

If your shadow is already possessing a dead body, there’s no need to wait to let it take over. Sending power to your shadow, you order it to stand ready to inhabit its soon-to-be corpse. If the target of the Possession dies before he can get rid of your shadow, his corpse is immediately animated with Wayang.

I'm not sure what this is for, other than instant corpse destruction. As I said, I don't like the idea of animating corpses anyway, and I suggest that you make this a simple corpse destroyer, if that is what you are looking for. Being so high in the skill list, you could make this a corpse destroy that gives a temporary damage buff to your shadow if you wanted.

TAHVOTAI – EXPEL

Syntax: Passive

The wiccan has already mastered her own darkness. The petty attempts by others to bring darkness upon her are at best, laughable. A wiccan with this ability gains a special Expel balance. If the wiccan would be afflicted with Blackout while this balance is free, the wiccan instead generates a minor shadow which absorbs the damage of the next attack against her.

Basically, you want a balanceless auto-reflect during blackout? Yeah right. I suggest replacing this with something completely different. Possibly a 2 power ability that gives a target an uncurable Lv. 1 sip malus for 1 minute, or similar, to support your mana kill.

TAHVOTAI – CONSUME

Syntax: SHADOWCALL CONSUME

Power: 4 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Calling on the wrath of Mother Night to utterly consume the weak, the wiccan merges her shadow with the victim’s inner darkness, drowning the target in shadow. Consume instantly kills a target who is Possessed by the wiccan, at 50% or lower mana, and either blind or suffering from blackout.

Remove the "or suffering from blackout" part (since your shadow already passively blinds, and you can support this with beastspit), and increase the power cost to 6-7, since adding blind to the kill condition doesn't make it that much harder for this skillset.

TAHVOTAI – SHAZBAT

Syntax: SHADOWCALL SHAZBAT (to destroy a Wayang)

Syntax: SHADOWCALL SHAZBATLAM (to destroy yourself)

Power: 10 (Master Ravenwood Tree)

Damage: 100% Excoro

Sometimes there’s nothing for it. Filling her shadow with the spite and hatred of Mother Night, the wiccan overloads it with destructive energies… with terrible results. There is only a few seconds’ warning before the shadow explodes in a black cataclysm of power, obliterating friend and foe alike.

This technique may be activated either through a Wayang, or if the wiccan is particularly desperate, using her own body. In the latter case, her sacrifice also causes the blast to go through even the toughest shields.

Just say no to holobombs, particularly ones you can active from different rooms. Figure out something else for a trans skill.

Cyndarin

Stitch is the only iffy skill, though it's a double sided sword so not all that wacko, and abduction should require lust like empress or some other limitation. The other skills Daedalion brought up already exist in some incarnation in Lusternia (shazbat: mancy and chemancy skills both have versions of this....hallifax already has room wide passive aeon) so I'm not sure why they are imbalanced here and not elsewhere.

 

Balance would come down to numbers and how much mana drain the skill has, and how viable sticking blindness/blackout would be. I toyed with the idea of animating your own shadow a few months ago, I think it's an awesome idea. I absolutely love that it draws on the flavour of the Xynthin event with the visions involving myself, Eliron, and Astraea as well as Rowena's bomb thing.

 

Edit: it's really hard to take super obvious alts seriously. Especially when you're suggesting thing that already exist and aren't really OP are ZOMG NO OP. (merge exists in ecology, illuminati have it, trackers have it. :P)

Thulbear

Shaddus

I"m just gonna say no.

An asphyx attack that lowers asphyx dmp (basically)

A mob that does excoro damage and blinds on each strike.

Another version of Crow spying.

A way to forest a room?

Passive Mana Drain

A way to make the mob untargetable but still allow it to attack.

A way to cause blackout, damage and more manadrain to enemies suffering from said blindness.

Stitch? Hell no. There is no damned way you're giving a wiccan P5+.

A way to entangle a target who isn't in your room?

A way to forest even more rooms, basically giving wiccans a demesne-style setup?

Possibility of being summoned to the wiccan's room? Are we talking like currents, or Wildarrane's Cairnlargo skill, which I believe is Mythical and requires not only spirits, but being undeaf.

Manadrain and Paralysis, causing just that much more mana drain to focus away?

Bond Recall for free?

A version of Raisedead with basically passive effects?

I.... Assumption doesn;t make any sense, though I get the concept.

Passive blackout immunity that instead generates a reflection?

Ah, the Instakill. So target only needs 50% mana, have to be posessed  (the cure only requires leaving the room of the wiccan, or the demesne-style area, even though the target can randomly be automatically summoned back while entangled in another room and rooted into the room of the wiccan like p5), and blind or blackout (several attacks doing this). Uh, what?

Shazbat... hrm. I like that. I could see that happening, so long as if you use it via Wayang, it damages the Wiccan too.


Urfion said it better than I could.

Urfion

Celina said:

Stitch is the only iffy skill, though it's a double sided sword so not all that wacko, and abduction should require lust like empress or some other limitation. The other skills Daedalion brought up already exist in some incarnation in Lusternia (shazbat: mancy and chemancy skills both have versions of this....hallifax already has room wide passive aeon) so I'm not sure why they are imbalanced here and not elsewhere.

The "double-edged sword" isn't really true when the SD can end the effect at will, while the target can do little or nothing to stop it (except spam gust and hope for the best). As to the holobomb, all of the mancy/chemancy ones are affected by shield, which this one is explicitly not when sacrificing self. The skill is poorly defined anyway; is it room only? can it be triggered through a shadowtranced wayang (I assumed that it could)? If is only a room attack, cannot be activated from a distance, and is affected by shield, it's fine, or ever underpowered.

As for Abduct, Lust would be a appropriate limitation; my comments, however were focused on things in the bounds of this skillset (ie no lust, since the skillset can't inflict lust). Perhaps I was unclear: I meant that unconditional continent wide summon is an absolute no; with a possession/some other condition, it's fine.

As to Merge, remember that the Shadow is invisible outside of "brightly lit" rooms; I would say this this is powerful enough to require some limitation; area only was just my first though.

Rather than be dismissive, Celina, why don't you try making a point-by-point refutation of my post? That would be the intellectually honest thing to do.

Another idea to replace Expel. 2 power, uncurable affliction lasting 2-3 minutes-ish that doubles the mana cost of focus mind. This would give the skill greater synergy with Hexes, while accomplishing the same thing as a sip malus.

Daedalion

Celina said:

Stitch is the only iffy skill, though it's a double sided sword so not all that wacko, and abduction should require lust like empress or some other limitation. The other skills Daedalion brought up already exist in some incarnation in Lusternia (shazbat: mancy and chemancy skills both have versions of this....hallifax already has room wide passive aeon) so I'm not sure why they are imbalanced here and not elsewhere.

 

Balance would come down to numbers and how much mana drain the skill has, and how viable sticking blindness/blackout would be. I toyed with the idea of animating your own shadow a few months ago, I think it's an awesome idea. I absolutely love that it draws on the flavour of the Xynthin event with the visions involving myself, Eliron, and Astraea as well as Rowena's bomb thing.

 

Edit: it's really hard to take super obvious alts seriously. Especially when you're suggesting thing that already exist and aren't really OP are ZOMG NO OP. (merge exists in ecology, illuminati have it, trackers have it. :P)

Thulbear

Stitch is completely 'wacko' you remember pfifth-choke? No choke anymore but two or more people can still gank you with this skill, choke isn't even necessary since it's uncurable and you won't be getting away.

Chemancy has a lesser version, sortof. I suppose you could compare it to cloudkill. But he's asking for a trans skill version that is probably going to do vaccum type damage with no afflictions needed for damage output and you don't even have to be in the room to do it.

Also, the 'room-wide passive aeon' costs 5 power, only hits enemies and halves your ego/mana. Not to mention it doesn't stack with itself and there is no active blindness/blackout in the skillset to hide it. Get a few of these together however and you'll be in a state of constant blackout/blindess/aeon that stacks for each shadow. The imbalance isn't the idea of the skill it's the synergy of all of it.

Also, the only skillset that has an active merge is tracking. Dying and reappearing like reincarnation/homunculus doesn't count.

Cyndarin

I will when I get home. It's a pretty bare bones outline being proposed and I think the "yeah right" attitude isn't exactly the sort of one I want to get engaged in an "intellectually honest" debate with, or at least it's not terribly inviting to one. That being said, I'll be more than happy to apply context to a lot of the issues being raised later today.

I feel like you have zero context for your objections. FYI Mage pollute/maelstrom destroys shields. And doesn't blow up the caster. Or allies. Context is important!

Eventru

Remember to play nice.

Cool theme, @Thul.

Thul

A few clarifications:

Stitch is probably the implementation I was most iffy about as well, but the idea was that you join your shadow to the target and they're physically impaired somehow. Should have looked at pfifth's AB first.

Power costs... I used the Celestialism ent as a guide for that, including reduced power cost on the respective plane. The shadow is meant to be an awakened being, a fae in itself, albeit one directly tied to the caster.

The reduced power cost on the insta is supposed to be a reflection of having to cast Possession first. You can toad anyone, but you can only Consume your Possession.

Expel is there largely to give the Wiccan something to help bash with. It's based off of Nekotai ScorpionSpit, which is also handy for bashing. And like ScorpionSpit, it can be overwhelmed with enough affliction spam.

Abduction is meant as a direct parallel to Empress. The idea behind the skill set is that the Wiccan is the direct emissary of Mother Night. And if Tarot is meant to make you watch your lust list, that skill is meant to make you watch what time of day it is.

Shazbat is room-only, but activatable through a wayang.

Assumption is there for those times that you're pretty sure your target's dead, and you need to get rid of the body right away or just don't feel like throwing another Possession out. Aeon probably shouldn't have been on the Wayang list, but I couldn't think of another appropriately generic guardian affliction. Masked mental aff? Blackout? Fear? Eh.

In general, the skillset is meant to be easier on the power drain than Wicca, but balance comes down to numbers, and... final results may vary. Assuming anything ever becomes of a silly hypothetical skillset.

Llandros

Double edged swords aren't really a thing in Lusternia. At worst you have a skill that you have to employ strategically. Being able to choose when and where to use them allows you to negate virtually any downside.

Urfion

Thul said:

The reduced power cost on the insta is supposed to be a reflection of having to cast Possession first.
I suppose if Possession was curable, the power cost is fine.

Expel is there largely to give the Wiccan something to help bash with. It's based off of Nekotai ScorpionSpit, which is also handy for bashing. And like ScorpionSpit, it can be overwhelmed with enough affliction spam.
I'm not familiar with the exact mechanics of ScorpionSpit, but it looks like it's an increased shrug chance, with the ability to use a free poison when it comes up (please correct me if I'm wrong). I may have overreacted to a single free reflection on blackout, though it may disrupt certain combat strategies that rely on blackout.

Abduction is meant as a direct parallel to Empress. The idea behind the skill set is that the Wiccan is the direct emissary of Mother Night. And if Tarot is meant to make you watch your lust list, that skill is meant to make you watch what time of day it is.
Except players have no control over what time of day/time of the month it is. The difference between this and Terror/RageCoven is that most players can absorb at least a few hit from Terror/RageCoven attacks, and thus can either escape or shield, while a single successful Abduct on the new moon could potentially mean sucking a player into a gank room with little to no warning.

Shazbat is room-only, but activatable through a wayang.
OK, but can Wayangs be moved away from the caster through the use of Shadowtrance? That's what I really have a problem with (pathing/detonating Wayangs on nexi is an obvious trolling use). And apologies to Celina, I wasn't aware that Pollute and company hit through shields. The skill is actually probably underpowered, in that case, barring through-Wayang detonations in other areas.

Assumption is there for those times that you're pretty sure your target's dead, and you need to get rid of the body right away or just don't feel like throwing another Possession out.
It still doesn't seem much better than a standard corpse destroy, and is very power intensive for what it does. I'll reiterate my comment that it should be changed to a more traditional corpse destroy, possibly one what gives either the SD or Shadow a temporary (5 minutes, maybe?) buff.

Aeon probably shouldn't have been on the Wayang list, but I couldn't think of another appropriately generic guardian affliction. Masked mental aff? Blackout? Fear?
I don't particularly mind wayangs with Aeon; this spec doesn't really have anything to stick it with anyway. Masked mental aff would be odd, considering regular mental affs are already already available. Fear would probably be more of a hindrance to the SD than his victim, and the skillset probably doesn't need more blackout. See my suggestion for the skill in my original post.

Thul

ScorpionSpit negates a poison, flat out, and lets you spit it back at the target or just on the ground. A second skill, ScorpionBlood, makes you more likely to shrug poisons while your mouth balance is off.

It is my second favorite skill for bashing. First is Bloodboil.

Cyndarin

Just on a break so I won't go into a whole thing about it, but I think the motivation behind wayang bringing a corpse back is the vision of me using Eliron's corpse to protect Astraea during the Xynthin even, then blowing it up when it got overwhelmed. Also ties in with Rowena self detonating. I think it's fabulous flavour and would love, love, love to see that vision worked in IC. Corpse destroy is pointless as a mechanic. It doesn't offer anything. As an SD, I'm ok with the proposed abduction and wayang ideas, power costs included. I think they are fabulous.

 

The abduct concerns are kind of weird. It seems like it'll work just like empress. Only probably not work in doors since terror does not work indoors. And respect enemy territory restrictions. Stopped by shield. It has limitations, but area wide would be fine.

 

@Daedalion: Being really silly about the passive aeon, but whatever. It's actually so inconsequential to the over all theme that you can get rid of it. It's inferior to halli aeon in just about every way imaginable, but it's not important enough to debate a bad point on a theorhetical skillset. Pretty easy to just say "One posession at a time" which matches the theme of SD shadow stealing, rather than making a big hulabaloo about situational passive aeon when a guardian dies in your room etc. Especially when room wide aeon that stacks with active aeon and with passive blackout is already a thing. Hi researchers.

 

Shadowstitch could be altered as I said, it looks iffy, I just think the OMG WICCANS WITH PFIFTH?!?! reaction is so dramatic it's comical. There should be a version of Godwin's law for choke.

 

Tracking and ecology both have a already existing version of the merge suggestion. That's 10 guilds with it already in game, for the record. :P

 

Oh and just because I remember it being said earlier, a "substantial cost" for 5% mana drain? Wha?

Urfion

Celina said:

Oh and just because I remember it being said earlier, a "substantial cost" for 5% mana drain? Wha?

Substantial cost for 5% passive (periodic) mana drain on area.

And, on Merge, I'd like to reiterate that the ent being teleported to is invisible outside of "brightly lit" areas.

Cyndarin

Bonds and tracker dogs have hidden movement always. Really making an issue out if nothing. People will just kick blah periodically like they do now:

Make it room only. Who cares. It's 5%. That's less than an enchantment.

Cyndarin

The point is what does 5% mana drain do to someone 5 rooms away? Nothing. At all.

Urfion

My comments are are targeted at the ability if it's area wide. Room only, 5% on tick/enemies only is fine at 0 power.

My understanding is that the shadow can't be targeted at all while invisible (since wayang specifically makes it vulnerable), mind clarifying, Thul?

Dys

Good read + indoor meteors. Yay!

Cyndarin

Well like I said, context is important. 5% drain area wide or not is a moot skill, and a silly point to quibble over.

Thul

In this thread, we argue mechanics for things that will never exist in the given iteration. :P

The shadow is untargetable while Possessing someone. Possession falls off if the target can spend five seconds in a well lit area. Well lit areas include daylight, a number of Serenwilde and Celest room powers that will count, and I really see no way that the Pool of Stars and the Mother Moonhart won't count for that purpose. If the shadow isn't Possessing someone, it's fully targetable. And probably a little squishy unless it's in a Wayang.

Also... area drain is a thing that can happen, but... only if the whole area is outdoors and if it's nighttime. Dusk aura is room only, isn't spread by the shadow, so generally you'll only have to worry about the wiccan's room, plus one or two radius depending on Nightfall. If it is outdoors and night all over the area... Um. Thematically I don't think that's supposed to be a good time to fight Shadowdancers anyway.

As far as Abduction goes: limiters are no shield, no mono, outdoors, darkness, area at all times except New Moon, when it's continent. Most places, that'll give it a one or two room radius, and the wiccan will have to burn power for extended aura to make it happen.

Urfion

Thul said:

The shadow is untargetable while Possessing someone. Possession falls off if the target can spend five seconds in a well lit area. Well lit areas include daylight, a number of Serenwilde and Celest room powers that will count, and I really see no way that the Pool of Stars and the Mother Moonhart won't count for that purpose. If the shadow isn't Possessing someone, it's fully targetable. And probably a little squishy unless it's in a Wayang.

Ok, Merge isn't a problem then, though I still fell that Possess needs to be curable by some method other than bright area only, either a shortish timer, or ignite on self (which consumes EQ, so the user won't want to be spamming it). You would also want to drop the cost of Possess (to 0-1) if you implemented ignite to cure.

Also... area drain is a thing that can happen, but... only if the whole area is outdoors and if it's nighttime. Dusk aura is room only, isn't spread by the shadow, so generally you'll only have to worry about the wiccan's room, plus one or two radius depending on Nightfall. If it is outdoors and night all over the area... Um. Thematically I don't think that's supposed to be a good time to fight Shadowdancers anyway.

Well, the mana drain should still be fairly small, even with those restrictions, especially for 0 power. After all, it's both passive and 'uncurable', at least without leaving the room/area of effect.

As far as Abduction goes: limiters are no shield, no mono, outdoors, darkness, area at all times except New Moon, when it's continent. Most places, that'll give it a one or two room radius, and the wiccan will have to burn power for extended aura to make it happen.

That still means that Glom enemies would have to spend that entire new moon night indoors, or else drop mono/raise shield the instant they move or risk being sucked away to a gank room. There needs to be some other limiting factor, at least if you want to keep continent wide. Area wide is probably more or less fine. Terror can hit people for damage or blindness across continents, but most players can take at least a few hits of this while they move between safe areas, while Abduction would only need to hit once to transport them to a squad of angry gloms who are likely to kill them.

Shaddus

Thul said: Abduction is meant as a direct parallel to Empress. The idea behind the skill set is that the Wiccan is the direct emissary of Mother Night. And if Tarot is meant to make you watch your lust list, that skill is meant to make you watch what time of day it is. 



This would be great, but I can reject someone to remove them from my list. I can't change the time of day.

Sidd

Shaddus said:

Thul said: Abduction is meant as a direct parallel to Empress. The idea behind the skill set is that the Wiccan is the direct emissary of Mother Night. And if Tarot is meant to make you watch your lust list, that skill is meant to make you watch what time of day it is. 



This would be great, but I can reject someone to remove them from my list. I can't change the time of day.

But you can shield! That's totally a legit method to stop stuff, right?

Thul

I don't understand what problem there would be with Abduction that there isn't with Terror. If I remember the teleport rules right, you can't:

-Pull someone out of their city or commune.

-Pull someone off their nexus.

-Pull someone without having it count as an aggressive action.

-Pull someone into an area on Prime where they're enemied.

So your list of targets are limited to people who are wandering around the continent, unshielded, outdoors, at night during the New Moon, not on a monolith and subject to rooting. If it's on Prime, you're eating Avenger status. The only other place I can see continent-wide coming into play is on Ethereal against Serenwilde, and... well, if someone's sitting around in Etherwilde off the nexus long enough for someone to notice, they're inviting gankage anyway, in my opinion.

Sure, there's that one time of the month that you have to be careful, but... again, there are thematically bad times to be fighting Shadowdancers. If you can watch your lust list, you can hit TIME every so often.

Urfion

Thul said:

I don't understand what problem there would be with Abduction that there isn't with Terror. If I remember the teleport rules right, you can't:

-Pull someone out of their city or commune.

-Pull someone off their nexus.

-Pull someone without having it count as an aggressive action.

-Pull someone into an area on Prime where they're enemied.

So your list of targets are limited to people who are wandering around the continent, unshielded, outdoors, at night during the New Moon, not on a monolith and subject to rooting. If it's on Prime, you're eating Avenger status. The only other place I can see continent-wide coming into play is on Ethereal against Serenwilde, and... well, if someone's sitting around in Etherwilde off the nexus long enough for someone to notice, they're inviting gankage anyway, in my opinion.

Sure, there's that one time of the month that you have to be careful, but... again, there are thematically bad times to be fighting Shadowdancers. If you can watch your lust list, you can hit TIME every so often.

And if you happen to be out vulnerable to said continent wide summon, you get no warning of your impending death until you've been pulled into a stack of 5 five gloms. Terror can't kill anyone competent: the first hit lands, you take at most 2k damage, then you shield. With Abduct, you are suddenly ripped away (and are disoriented as a player), are hit by five people, and quickly start dying. If Abduct gave a brief warning over continent, or had to strip a common defense (which it would strip on the first hit) before being able to summon it would be fair, since it would give a warning before you got killed.

Thul

Yeah. Um. If you happened to have not checked your lust list, you can be whisked into a death squad by Empress in exactly the way you described. Is there something different about the implementation of Abduct that makes it less fair than that?

Urfion

Thul said:

Yeah. Um. If you happened to have not checked your lust list, you can be whisked into a death squad by Empress in exactly the way you described. Is there something different about the implementation of Abduct that makes it less fair than that?

Yes, we've been over this. I can REJECT THUL, and end that threat. This takes a few seconds. I cannot REJECT NIGHT. I have to be sure that I am already in a safe location before New Moon starts, unable to leave until New Moon ends. This takes at least fifteen minutes. Can you spot the difference?