If you would like realtime demonstrations, please feel free to request such
I am not asking for a demonstration. I am asking you to provide us with what exactly the autobashing utility is designed & intended to accomplish, and why a hotkey would interfere with that purpose. Because I can see no reason to argue so fiercely against its inclusion unless it really is intended to be used for afk-autobashing-- in which case the disclaimer is null and void anyways.
As you may have imagined, it does indeed give the option for the user to completely automate their offence with regards to bashing.
If you would like realtime demonstrations, please feel free to request such
I am not asking for a demonstration. I am asking you to provide us with what exactly the autobashing utility is designed & intended to accomplish, and why a hotkey would interfere with that purpose. Because I can see no reason to argue so fiercely against its inclusion unless it really is intended to be used for afk-autobashing-- in which case the disclaimer is null and void anyways.
The autobashing utility has been designed from the ground up to be a -complete- replacement to your current bashing method. Yes, it will -completely- and utterly replace how you bash and yes, it will completely and 100% automate this.
"Can" and "Should" are always two very different things. I most certainly caution anyone from buying a product that has an entire bashing module designed to get you shrubbed, heh.
Given the fact that Eventru just said it is completely illegal to use this script either AFK or otherwise... how is it not a bad thing?
I have been given explicit, "Yes, you can do this" from the admin.
Did... we even read the same response? You flagged the thing with a like flag even though it explicitly declares using automated bashing of any kind (whether AFK or not) is against the rules.
Coding it is not currently illegal, but using it is... and the door has also been left open to declare simply providing it as a bannable offense as well.
Given the fact that Eventru just said it is completely illegal to use this script either AFK or otherwise... how is it not a bad thing?
I have been given explicit, "Yes, you can do this" from the admin.
Did... we even read the same response? You flagged the thing with a like flag even though it explicitly declares using automated bashing of any kind (whether AFK or not) is against the rules.
Coding it is not currently illegal, but using it is... and the door has also been left open to declare simply providing it as a bannable offense as well.
Technically, Eventru said that currently it's not illegal to sell such scripts, but it could be changed. So right now, he can sell it without the admins getting involved in it. And really, who cares if the people using your scripts gets shrubbed, right? You still get the credits.
Given the fact that Eventru just said it is completely illegal to use this script either AFK or otherwise... how is it not a bad thing?
I have been given explicit, "Yes, you can do this" from the admin.
The admin have given you permission to sell the script. The admin have also explicitly told the players that buying the script is a waste of money because using it is illegal (Eventru is the admin). The admin have also explcitly stated that using the script they are allowed to buy is illegal (Eventru is the admin).
I didn't trust you before, and I trust you even less now. You are selling a script that the admin have publicly told us, just now, that they are not allowed to use. You are a fraud.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
The admin have given you permission to sell the script. The admin have also explicitly told the players that buying the script is a waste of money because using it is illegal (Eventru is the admin). The admin have also explcitly stated that using the script they are allowed to buy is illegal (Eventru is the admin).
I didn't trust you before, and I trust you even less now. You are selling a script that the admin have publicly told us, just now, that they are not allowed to use. You are a fraud.
Hey, cut him some slack. You gotta tip your hat to his advertising spirit. Not getting put down by all the people telling him he's wrong, but just pushing on with promoting his product. Even infomercials don't go that far, sometimes.
We all know what he's selling: something that can get you shrubbed if you choose to use a certain part of it. We all know the moral, the ethical implications of the rules, and whether or not we agree with them, we're bound by the rules for as long as we play the game. If you're willing to take the risk and buy his system to use it to abuse the game, then you better be prepared for the consequences. If not, leave him to his advertising. He can sell what he wants until the admin say he can't.
So, the question I want to know is this: If he added a hot key that would bash the room you're in, and then moved on, pausing in the next room to wait for the hotkey.... How would this make it more legal, Xenthos, if we go by Eventru's statement? If any automation is illegal, why do we allow people with "influence plugins" or reflexes? Why is it acceptable that Kelly has reflexes to get to the nodes during wildnodes? Why is it acceptable that people can use clan reflexes for sniping others/timing attacks with groups?
It's kind of a slippery slope, and I'm not saying that people should use it and just hope the admin don't bust them. I'm saying that if you abuse it, you -deserve- to be shrubbed, but it's not really much more different than what we have now.
I simply don't feel this should be branded as illegal just because it has the /possibility/ of abuse. It's simply coding that meshes things we already use.
To paraphrase George Carlin, "Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why is selling sex illegal?"
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Yep. He's free to sell it. My own problem is that he was trying to claim it was completely fine to use the auto-basher and that it wasn't against the rules; that's what made me react, really.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Doesn't mean players can't call out the sleazy nature of the deal, either. We are free to do that as well.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Yep. It's a sleazy deal for sure. At least now the legal issues are all handled; everyone knows that it's illegal to use the autobasher provided in it.
If we're going to go on an extended discussion about the ethics and the motivation behind automation rules (and the intricate implications which seperate things like Kelly's node-walking scripts or m&m's balance queues from things like Crown/Avante Garde/Saracen genrunners) then we should start a new thread.
But in general, and very briefly, automation rules are in place to curb unfair effort to reward ratios. There is no way for everyone to start on a fair and equal platform to compete in. Think of this like life, no one get born the same. Some people get a little more advantage, some people less. But competitions (and games) need to have a reasonably fair starting point from which participants can match themselves to one another.
Automation in a mud messes with this designed start point. With access to a genrunner system, people can exert far, far, far less effort than everyone else to get a huge reward. This reward is DESIGNED to have to take time, effort and mentally drain the person: bashing. Grinding. Unlike things like wild-nodes or combat usage of balance chasers, bashing and influencing are meant to provide reward only after inescapable tedium and boredom. When a script counters a great deal of this tedium, it is deemed unfair.
To be fair, the admin isolate automation and outlaw it ALL in their official stance. However, you cannot expect there to be zero automation. How much automation is allowed? How much is not? The admin cannot afford to dump the amount of resources required to actively and accurately police a clear threshold. Instead, they outlaw everything and inflict punishment where they see clear instances of abuse or unfairness. Genrunner scripts are one of these, and abusing balance-chaser scripts for influencing is also one of these.
For the more reasonable usages of automation, like balance chasing bashing that still requires input to actually work (Xenthos' suggestion), the chances are far higher it would be given a blind eye. Of course, no admin will officially confirm this. They cannot, for they risk compromising their own no-tolerance stance. And there's the fact that even if they do try to prosecute this kind of automation, they cannot prove it, as Eventru mentioned, since the player IS at his keyboard, and can claim he was doing everything manually when quizzed.
Genrunners are a clear and blatant ignoring of these moral and ethical considerations. It flagrantly steps on and dismantles the spirit of the rule: compete within acceptable limits. It can allow a player to entirely ignore the grind needed to get the reward from bashing/influencing. This is why it is deemed a clear case of unacceptable, whereas the gray areas like Kelly's node walking scripts can be accepted by the playerbase.
To paraphrase George Carlin, "Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why is selling sex illegal?"
This is terrible logic. Drinking is legal (if you're of above a certain age), driving is legal (again age, and with a license). Drunk driving is illegal precisely because of the interaction between drinking and driving (danger to other drivers/pedestrians) even though the two separate actions are completely legal.
It makes it more legal because their definition of automation generally is "something that does it all". If it can heal you, move you, and attack for you it is fully automated and therefore a Bad Thing.
Change one of these three to require human input and interaction and while most of the routine may be automated, the full system is not. There is zero possibility of you walking away from your computer while your character continues wandering around earning experience.
Given the fact that Eventru just said it is completely illegal to use this script either AFK or otherwise... how is it not a bad thing?
I have been given explicit, "Yes, you can do this" from the admin.
The admin have given you permission to sell the script. The admin have also explicitly told the players that buying the script is a waste of money because using it is illegal (Eventru is the admin). The admin have also explcitly stated that using the script they are allowed to buy is illegal (Eventru is the admin).
I didn't trust you before, and I trust you even less now. You are selling a script that the admin have publicly told us, just now, that they are not allowed to use. You are a fraud.
We're hearing the views from a -single- admin and you are basing your trust on the product over that?
Comments
Did... we even read the same response? You flagged the thing with a like flag even though it explicitly declares using automated bashing of any kind (whether AFK or not) is against the rules.
Coding it is not currently illegal, but using it is... and the door has also been left open to declare simply providing it as a bannable offense as well.
Technically, Eventru said that currently it's not illegal to sell such scripts, but it could be changed. So right now, he can sell it without the admins getting involved in it. And really, who cares if the people using your scripts gets shrubbed, right? You still get the credits.
Why court disaster with this one feature that they can't even use without being in violation, when there is a very easy fix you could implement?
The admin have also explicitly told the players that buying the script is a waste of money because using it is illegal (Eventru is the admin).
The admin have also explcitly stated that using the script they are allowed to buy is illegal (Eventru is the admin).
I didn't trust you before, and I trust you even less now. You are selling a script that the admin have publicly told us, just now, that they are not allowed to use. You are a fraud.
We all know what he's selling: something that can get you shrubbed if you choose to use a certain part of it. We all know the moral, the ethical implications of the rules, and whether or not we agree with them, we're bound by the rules for as long as we play the game. If you're willing to take the risk and buy his system to use it to abuse the game, then you better be prepared for the consequences. If not, leave him to his advertising. He can sell what he wants until the admin say he can't.
If he added a hot key that would bash the room you're in, and then moved on, pausing in the next room to wait for the hotkey.... How would this make it more legal, Xenthos, if we go by Eventru's statement? If any automation is illegal, why do we allow people with "influence plugins" or reflexes? Why is it acceptable that Kelly has reflexes to get to the nodes during wildnodes? Why is it acceptable that people can use clan reflexes for sniping others/timing attacks with groups?
It's kind of a slippery slope, and I'm not saying that people should use it and just hope the admin don't bust them. I'm saying that if you abuse it, you -deserve- to be shrubbed, but it's not really much more different than what we have now.
I simply don't feel this should be branded as illegal just because it has the /possibility/ of abuse. It's simply coding that meshes things we already use.
To paraphrase George Carlin, "Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why is selling sex illegal?"
I'll take TWO copies! (Strictly for research.)
But in general, and very briefly, automation rules are in place to curb unfair effort to reward ratios. There is no way for everyone to start on a fair and equal platform to compete in. Think of this like life, no one get born the same. Some people get a little more advantage, some people less. But competitions (and games) need to have a reasonably fair starting point from which participants can match themselves to one another.
Automation in a mud messes with this designed start point. With access to a genrunner system, people can exert far, far, far less effort than everyone else to get a huge reward. This reward is DESIGNED to have to take time, effort and mentally drain the person: bashing. Grinding. Unlike things like wild-nodes or combat usage of balance chasers, bashing and influencing are meant to provide reward only after inescapable tedium and boredom. When a script counters a great deal of this tedium, it is deemed unfair.
To be fair, the admin isolate automation and outlaw it ALL in their official stance. However, you cannot expect there to be zero automation. How much automation is allowed? How much is not? The admin cannot afford to dump the amount of resources required to actively and accurately police a clear threshold. Instead, they outlaw everything and inflict punishment where they see clear instances of abuse or unfairness. Genrunner scripts are one of these, and abusing balance-chaser scripts for influencing is also one of these.
For the more reasonable usages of automation, like balance chasing bashing that still requires input to actually work (Xenthos' suggestion), the chances are far higher it would be given a blind eye. Of course, no admin will officially confirm this. They cannot, for they risk compromising their own no-tolerance stance. And there's the fact that even if they do try to prosecute this kind of automation, they cannot prove it, as Eventru mentioned, since the player IS at his keyboard, and can claim he was doing everything manually when quizzed.
Genrunners are a clear and blatant ignoring of these moral and ethical considerations. It flagrantly steps on and dismantles the spirit of the rule: compete within acceptable limits. It can allow a player to entirely ignore the grind needed to get the reward from bashing/influencing. This is why it is deemed a clear case of unacceptable, whereas the gray areas like Kelly's node walking scripts can be accepted by the playerbase.
Change one of these three to require human input and interaction and while most of the routine may be automated, the full system is not. There is zero possibility of you walking away from your computer while your character continues wandering around earning experience.