Issues with Tattoos

ShaddusShaddus , the Leper MessiahOutside your window.
I'm wondering if we can get a discussion going about the Tattoos tradeskill. I hope we can get a civil, decent discussion going with perhaps some admin feedback.

First off, I'm not looking to buff the skills themselves; instead, I'm trying to find ways to improve it and make people want to actually take the skill for other reasons besides the armour and dmp. Tattoos is likely my favorite tradeskill out of all of them, due to the sheer amount of possible designs one could come up with. Be that as it may, it's rarely taken, and for a number of reasons.

1: The sheer amount of time required to ink a tattoo is immensely high. I'm guessing the time required is linear and based on the ka weight of the tattoo, and a 100 weight tattoo take ten minutes. With an artifact  needle, the same tattoo takes two minutes, an 80% reduction. Though I'm not trying to nerf the trade artifact, I feel that most tattooists who hawk their wares and actually work for others are -hampered- if they do not have an artifact needle (300 credits), and many customers will refuse to work with a tattooist who doesn't have one.

Solution A: Halve the time required to ink a tattoo without a needle. This still makes a tattoo needle desirable, but not required.
Solution B: Lower the price of a tattoo needle, perhaps to 200-225 credits. 

2: The inability of tattooists to tattoo themselves. I've heard this time and time again, that a tattooist can't tattoo their backs irl, and that's why tattooists can't ink themselves. Seeing as anyone who can ink a tattoo in Lusternia is either an acrobat (contortion, anyone?) or a psymet (control over their own body), there's no reason why we can't rp this out.

Solution A: Allow tattooists to ink themselves. Simple as that.
Solution B: Allow tattooists to ink themselves but require an artifact needle. Not as fun an idea as A, but it would lend more need for a needle.
Solution C: Allow tattooists to ink themselves, but require twice the time to ink due to it being more difficult.

3: I may be wrong on this, but it requires 66% Virtuoso in Discernment to be able to tell what tattoos a person has, and even then, clothing covers them up. One would think a tattooist should be able to appraise a person's tattoos at a glance without such an investment in Discernment. Furthermore, I don't personally see any need for a person to know another person's tattoos unless they themselves are a tattooist.

Solution A: Remove Tattoos from Discernment, and move it to Tattoos (tradeskill). 
Solution B: Keep Tattoos in Discernment, and add the same ability in Tattoos (tradeskill). If the tattooist has both, allow them to view all tattoos a person has, even through clothing.



Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.

Comments

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I disagree with point 3.  If I look at you and you have a tattoo on your face (and it's not covered), I should be able to see it.  Otherwise why make special tattoos?  You could just have a picture of Trader Bob everywhere and nobody will ever know (except a tattooist, I suppose).

    I fully agree with point 2, though.  It's a situation of mechanics trumps roleplay to me; there's no other tradeskill that you can't actually use it on yourself, but need to find someone else to do it for you.  It just adds an extra inhibiting feature to the skillset which is unnecessary.

    I don't have a huge problem with the first one either.
    image
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited May 2013
    I think people looking to make gold from tattoos would also benefit if tattoos had some kind of recurring investment for anyone not a tattooist themselves. Something about the ka energy fading, and needing re-aligning every so often.

    1A makes sense, as does 2 anything. Even 2A makes sense, just make it a high level skill (up near trans) and change the message to... going through katas in a cloud of inks that adhere to your body as you run through the mystical fighting stances, or something.
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals
    I'd love to see an option where you can just rework a tattoo already on a person so that it is aligned for a new tattoo power. Something like:

    REWORK TATTOO <tattoo #> ON <target> TO <power>.

    This would consume the same amount of power, but perhaps only half the tints and take half as long as doing a completely new tattoo. Reworking a tattoo design you do not have access to would be impossible.

    This would make changing up tattoos solely for powers (when you want to keep the same design) on guild changes much easier. The initial decision to get tattooed in the first place would be a major time investment still, it just wouldn't be such a pain to adjust powers when you are literally getting the same thing inked into your body otherwise.
  • You think that is bad. The current set up is actually very, very, very reasonable compared to when it first came out. Back then, the powers that a tattoo gave was included in the design. So if you wanted a tattoo with a different power, you had to design a whole new one from scratch. Thank god they changed that, at least.

  • Posted this in tweets already, but I want to say that I agree with all points given thus far.

    I was making a monk alt, and was going to take tattoos until I read that you couldn't tattoo yourself, and immediately noped out of that.

    There's no other skill in the game where I don't benefit from a single ability in it other than the trans skill. By taking tattoos I would essentially be signing up to spend tons of time sitting around doing nothing while I help someone else out. 

    It's not even that hard to RP this one out. Add a magic mirror apparatus to the tattoo bench that lets you ink onto a hologram of yourself - you're welcome, I accept payment in any amount of credits.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    I thought it would be cooler to have the tattoo artist just straight up magic that shaite. Toss the ink into the air, and do katas through it. It sticks to your skin and works because the katas focus... ka energy (which is what the RP says powers magical tattoos). As a monk, the tattooist already is able to focus their own ka energy with very little relative effort, it all makes sense.
  • Bumping. I'm am currently envoying a report to attempt to make tattooing either easier or more desirable. Please post any additional suggestions. I'll report the report here to see if it inspires any additional ideas.
  • Report #1273
    Skillset: Tattoos              Skill: None
       Guild: Tahtetso            Status: Draft

    Problem: Far too many of those with the tattoos skillset refuse to use the skillset to help
    players, especially newer players. It is too time consuming and too self-sacrificing to be a
    tattooist. As a tattooist, you'd be better off hunting or influencing. As to novices, imagine
    you're a new novice monk and you're told in the help files to use tattoo armour, so you ask,
    but your guild mates tell you to buy robes because they're not going to take the time to give
    you tattoos until you've proved you are going to stick around.

    Solution #1: New skill: Preparation: Using magical ink, powerstones, and KA, prepare your skin
    as armour. Each use gives 10/10 up to a max of 40/40. This would allow for some minimal
    protection for newer novices, but would encourage them to eventually seek upgrading for normal
    great robes protection. This would require and encourage them to take tattoos and so wouldn't
    be a free pass.  *** To clarify KA armour would still top out where it currently does.

    Solution #2: New skill: Imbue: Keep tattoos permanent, but have their power run out (like a
    battery), thus requiring recharging by a tattooist or preserved with a new artifact. Suggestion,
     1 power and 1 sip magicink per 1 weight, needle reduces power cost and halves time. Time 2
    minutes per 100 weight. The empowering should not be a short period of time, nor should tattoos
    have to deplete before being recharged. Suggest 100 game months. Prefer INK IMBUE x <tattoo
    number>.

    Solution #3: Allow self-tattooing and reduce time: Allow reach able parts of the body to be
    self-tattooed. Exempt back and waist (if waist goes around the back). Time is the killer. It is
    too much, too long.  Cut non-artifact tattooing by 60%. For the needle artifact, cut cost to
    200-225, have it use less inks (half?), and if imbue or self-tattooing is accepted (keep credit
    cost) and it becomes well worth it. If self-tattooing not allowed, consider allowing it with
    use of an artifact needle. Being able to switch out your own tattoos makes it well worth it.
    Additional idea to give value to needle: new verb, REWORK, keeps or replaces a tattoo design
    while keeping or replacing the tattoo power (same com and power costs).
  • Solution 1 is a definite help to newbies. Sometimes, newbies can't get tattoos even if someone is willing to do them because they don't have the gold for the comms needed. This will allow them to tide themselves over and bash without struggling before being able to buy actual proper tattoos.

    Solution 2 alone is just going to make things worse. If the admin approve this report and only implement solution 2, everyone's going to be worse off than they are now. I'd rather not see it at all.

    For solution 3, the artifact should reduce the costs, if the reduced time is going to be standardized, and nothing else. All other suggestions to upgrade the artifact should be put into the skillset and available to everyone, including self-tattoo, rework etc. As a note, the needle already reduces the powerstones cost.

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited September 2013
    Solution 2 would be a good idea if the original cost and time was shared with the restoring service, instead of being doubled by it. Pair solution 2 with a drastic reduction in the commodities and time required to tattoo someone in the first place, and you have recurring business. 


    EDIT: I agree with Lerad on your third solution as well. We should stop fixing major problems with skillsets by introducing expensive artifacts required to achieve 'balance'.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    edited September 2013
    Solution 2 would be awful due to the sods law of "there's never a tattooist around when you need one." Nor does it fix the issue highlighted in the first line of Steingrim's report draft, needing to do it more isn't going to encourage people who don't want to do it now to suddenly start.

    I'd rather, like Lerad, not see it exist.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    I feel like there are probably a lot more tattooists around, who just never hawk their wares and never respond to requests for tattooing, because it's so tedious and profitless. You have to figure that every serious monk will take trans tattoos at some point for the hilarious armor. Finding ways to both cut down the tedium and inject recurring profit would probably make those monks more likely to participate with their trade skill.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Furies: Solution 4, double all tattoo costs and time, triple needle cost and trans tattoos only provides 50/50 armor.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Morkarion said:
    Solution 2 would be awful due to the sods law of "there's never a tattooist around when you need one." Nor does it fix the issue highlighted in the first line of Steingrim's report draft, needing to do it more isn't going to encourage people who don't want to do it now to suddenly start.

    I'd rather, like Lerad, not see it exist.
    2 doesn't seem particularly onerous for a tattooist, in that it isn't particularly time consuming. 100 days gives quite a bit time for a player to get their tattoos re-topped off.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    100 irl days?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Enyalida said:
    I feel like there are probably a lot more tattooists around, who just never hawk their wares and never respond to requests for tattooing, because it's so tedious and profitless. You have to figure that every serious monk will take trans tattoos at some point for the hilarious armor. Finding ways to both cut down the tedium and inject recurring profit would probably make those monks more likely to participate with their trade skill.
    This.

    I've decided at this point I'll be switching classes (this has nothing to do with tattooing, just tossing it out to avoid anyone thinking I'm trying to feather my own nest here).

    As a general rule I don't do tattoos, largely because it is too time consuming. So much of this is from my own bias. I could be enticed to recharge someone's tattoos if it was only going to take 10 minutes. I could be enticed to give a novice 10-15 minutes of my presence. I will not spend 5+ hours a week doing tattoos.


  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    edited September 2013
    Last time I responded to a request for tattoo work on market (on my monk alt), the person wanted to name their own price and went something like: "1000 gold per 100 weight, your tints and powerstones" I'm sure everyone can imagine the response they got to such a request. Anyways... tattoo work tends to be rather on the ungrateful side more often than not. Last time I needed work done, I tipped something like 50k because I know a tattoo artist usually doesn't make much gold at all with that particular trade skill, so eh.

    EDIT: To recap... it takes too long to tattoo someone and the profits tend to be ridiculous, especially for a trade skill where you pretty much do work once/person, maybe twice. If the process was shortened and tattoos were to decay, perhaps it would be more lucrative, but eh... I doubt the process will be made faster considering the trade artifact reduces speed of tattoo work.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    With how long it sounds like it takes, I'd say put another zero on that number with the customer providing tints/stones and you might be talking. So very happy I don't plan on taking that skill ever.
    image
  • I tended to charge 100 gold per weight. 10 gold per weight...the tattoo artist IS losing money at that point, because even at the best herb prices WITH a paintbrush tints are at least 3 gold per for all but purple/gold, and those will cost at least 10 per. Tack on extra faeleaf for white or coal for black and the average tint usually ran me around 20 gold per. When looking at designs, and how many people picked ones very heavy on white or black (especially on white), it was an average cost of some 45 gold/weight for tints and attached materials - and I usually had access to a paintbrush. Don't forget the 1% power/2 weight as well, which usually came from a powerstone. So you're looking at a safe bet, 50 gold per weight cost to make the tattoos.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I tend to charge 100 per weight, 10k for a large tattoo (100 weight), provide my own powerstones/tints, I have a needle, and I generally break even. You designers need to quit making gold/silver tattoos :/
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    BUT SHINIES ON MAH BODAH!
    image
  • Shaddus, that's exactly what I did. Needle, powerstones, tints. Usually used a paintbrush. HATED the silver scrollwork tattoos. With a passion.

  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spot
    The fiasco that is tattooing makes me glad my character doesn't touch people. Also, I wouldn't have been able to take tattooing without jumping back into a monk guild anyhow.  :D
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Daraius said:
    The fiasco that is tattooing makes me glad my character doesn't touch people. Also, I wouldn't have been able to take tattooing without jumping back into a monk guild anyhow.  :D
    Come to the Light, Puppy-Anne.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spot
    [-(
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Sign In or Register to comment.