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Icewynd: Feedback on the changes.
Karlach
God of Kittens.
This is a two part thread, the first is my own personal report on Icewynd then and now, and also an open discussion for people to give feedback and opinions of their own.
Before the changes Icewynd was a highly sought after source of end game bashing. The mobs were easy to kill, many in number and if you had the spawn timers you could farm very easy essence and offerings all day. They were high reward and minimal risk as long as you knew what you were doing. They easily got people to Demigod, and easily got Demigods high amounts of essence. The corpses were also some of the best sources of God offerings essence in the game.
Because of this, it encouraged people to be selfish and hunt alone or in very small numbers and hoard the place to themselves, thus the rich got richer by knowing and controlling the spawn timers.
The biggest change is the affliction spam, aggressive stance and pursuit has now made soloing very undesirable if not impossible for most. People are encouraged to go as a group, a popular set up being a Knight with Standardbearer tanking all the mobs while the group pours in the damage with a controlled order of killing.
I like this bit, this is good, I'm all for areas that encourage groups instead of soloists.
However since the change, because the corpses are now divvied up and because the experience/essence is shared, this is poor bashing. In an hour it's worth less than sitting on Astral linking for 30 to 40 minutes alone. Especially with one of the other changes that was made was to bring Fiends in line with the rest of the other mobs in terms of exp/essence value and offerings value (as they were out of synch with the rest.)
While I'm sure others will disagree with my stance that I would like to see the current affliction and aggressive/pursuit mechanics remain to dis-encourage solo farming, I would instead propose a look at raising their exp and offerings values so that groups are encouraged to go there, as right now the risk/reward has swung in the other direction, and would like to see this balance brought into line. Not necessarily as high as their original values but somewhere between there and their current value.
The other thing I believe is lacking is a decent gold amount per mob, not just for the larva packs but also for the Icediggers. Compared to Lirangsha or the Gutter, which are both farmed over constantly, the gold for these is very poor despite the fact they aren't hunted anywhere near as often. I'd like to suggest this is looked at considering it is now a group hunting area and possibly raised to a level where it's expected to be divided by a group between 3-5 people.
Group hunting areas in my opinion are a great thing, but the rewards for any of them in my opinion need to outweigh simply going out and hunting alone for a Demigod to encourage teamwork. I'm a believer that team play should always be more rewarding than solo play because of the co-ordination involved and the fact you're doing this to benefit others than yourselves. If there is an option in the future to have more of these areas I'd firmly encourage it.
Thank you for your time.
Before the changes Icewynd was a highly sought after source of end game bashing. The mobs were easy to kill, many in number and if you had the spawn timers you could farm very easy essence and offerings all day. They were high reward and minimal risk as long as you knew what you were doing. They easily got people to Demigod, and easily got Demigods high amounts of essence. The corpses were also some of the best sources of God offerings essence in the game.
Because of this, it encouraged people to be selfish and hunt alone or in very small numbers and hoard the place to themselves, thus the rich got richer by knowing and controlling the spawn timers.
The biggest change is the affliction spam, aggressive stance and pursuit has now made soloing very undesirable if not impossible for most. People are encouraged to go as a group, a popular set up being a Knight with Standardbearer tanking all the mobs while the group pours in the damage with a controlled order of killing.
I like this bit, this is good, I'm all for areas that encourage groups instead of soloists.
However since the change, because the corpses are now divvied up and because the experience/essence is shared, this is poor bashing. In an hour it's worth less than sitting on Astral linking for 30 to 40 minutes alone. Especially with one of the other changes that was made was to bring Fiends in line with the rest of the other mobs in terms of exp/essence value and offerings value (as they were out of synch with the rest.)
While I'm sure others will disagree with my stance that I would like to see the current affliction and aggressive/pursuit mechanics remain to dis-encourage solo farming, I would instead propose a look at raising their exp and offerings values so that groups are encouraged to go there, as right now the risk/reward has swung in the other direction, and would like to see this balance brought into line. Not necessarily as high as their original values but somewhere between there and their current value.
The other thing I believe is lacking is a decent gold amount per mob, not just for the larva packs but also for the Icediggers. Compared to Lirangsha or the Gutter, which are both farmed over constantly, the gold for these is very poor despite the fact they aren't hunted anywhere near as often. I'd like to suggest this is looked at considering it is now a group hunting area and possibly raised to a level where it's expected to be divided by a group between 3-5 people.
Group hunting areas in my opinion are a great thing, but the rewards for any of them in my opinion need to outweigh simply going out and hunting alone for a Demigod to encourage teamwork. I'm a believer that team play should always be more rewarding than solo play because of the co-ordination involved and the fact you're doing this to benefit others than yourselves. If there is an option in the future to have more of these areas I'd firmly encourage it.
Thank you for your time.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
7
(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
Lirangsha is only enemy status half the time, rarely visited and easily flipped, it's also an insanely good influencing area for those who beg for the gold rather than bash for it. I'll agree with Astral being open PK, though insanity can be greatly reduced through Circlet/Medallion as well as Chaos domoth.
But even when you look at it all, Icewynd really doesn't have a place anymore in the bigger thick of things.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Also need to consider that all things in Icewynd have a fatal weakness to fire where as astral only goes to moderate.
I'm not sure what this means in actual numbers but I tear through Icewynd mobs with destruction. I've outpaced fullied artied and crit runed warriors with just my generic buffs and a magic damage artie. I suspect a lot of desctructioners and pyros would turn Icewynd into an essence buffet.
Yes those with fire (and to lesser extend divinus and blunt) will have advantages, though Fire is getting a lot more spread around with both fire damage runes and beast minorbreath. That said there might be merit to tone down a level (or two if the vision allows it) of their vulnerability, to not make it a pigeonhole setup that you bash the area with one high DMP/HP tank Knight and a squad of only Pyros and destro Ascendants.
Please keep up with the feedback folks, essentially right now Icewynd is for all intents and purposes a dead area, it's gone from popular to pretty much abandoned in one (albeit needed) series of changes, and it could use a little love.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Entered by: The Oneiroi, Administrators of Fate Date: 2013-05-16 01:40:32
Those hunting the frost-bitten Iceburn Plains will find their experience
gains have been increased across the board.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
People: Morkarion, Synkarin (Nightkiss tank/Destro Ascendant combo)
XP buffs used: Nightcoven Squad (not sure what it's worth, but it isn't huge)
Offering tattoo used.
Starting essence:.57,006,744
Final total: 58,255,548
Gold total: Roughly 52k per person.
God offerings: 1,166,909 (corpses split in half)
We cleared out 3 1/3 larva (someone had already started bashing one earlier in the day alone and failed, so we occasionally ran into small groups) In roughly 1 1/2 hours. Had we done a full four full larva spawns it would have probably taken about 2 hours.
The packs average out to about 350k essence per in a group of two. Offering essence is roughly the same per pack without the tattoo in said group of two.
As far as I'm concerned this is a great place to take 2-3 demigods and 1-2 non demis to help them level, or just a group of 3-4 demis for a fast clear. The values now are pretty accurate to where they should be as a group bashing place. With xp bonuses up this is a very profitable area that promotes group work, without making other areas obsolete.
Overall, great change, thanks!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Certainly more gold though, but that's a given.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
---
Icewynd (one larva):
Rate: 312,090 essence / 22 minutes
= 14,186 essence / min
= 851,154 essence / hr
Total corpses: 255
Kelly 109, Saoirse 146
30,238 total gold per larva (before split)
Gold obtained was modified with the Respect Demipower and Commandant arti.
Pros:
Minor gold drop (~50k/hr/person)
Avenger-protected
Cons:
* Accident-prone environment (pits, winds, mob multiplication targeting woes)
* Requires group (and very tanky standardbearer?)
* Greatly reduces standardbearer's efficiency (his/her personal corpse gain), and thus the overall group's rate of xp gain
* Comparatively larger expense on curatives
* Requires unique planar rift, artifact transportation, or unreliable quest access
* Long mob respawn time
* Specific mob resistances/weaknesses (caters to select attack types)
---
Astral (linked obesefessors):
Rate: 459,008 essence / 22 minutes
= 20,864 essence / min
= 1,251,840 essence / hr
Total corpses: 279
Kelly 155, Saoirse 124
Pros:
* Power gain
* Great xp/offerings
* Relatively limitless mobs
* Can be bashed solo or in groups
* Wide variety of mobs (weaknesses/resistances), lends to all classes
Cons:
* Insanity - reduces efficiency over time, imposes time limit on bashing
* Not Avenger-protected
* Artifact assistance may be necessary to access desired spheres
---
In conclusion, Astral was a significant ~50% better in terms of xp gain. Qualitatively, it was also much better in terms of offerings; more corpses and at a higher net essence/corpse rate.
Comparison to Astral aside, I still do not think Icewynd is really worthwhile. I would probably attribute this to the fact that the standardbearer is unable to attack for the majority of the time due to the high rate of hindering afflictions (frozen, paralysis, broken limbs, etc.), thus the squad's xp rate suffers. This can probably be slightly mitigated by having a larger group, but then is contingent on finding the same high-caliber bashers. I think using a standardbearer is necessary for this, but would be interested to hear otherwise! I also perceive a lot of cons around Icewynd bashing, while there are significant pros to many other areas.
In any case, I appreciate the Admin looking into this and giving the larva a little boost! As it stands, I would consider Icewynd a change of pace bashing locale, but it needs a little more help to make it attractive.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Diggers needed some help before, that's neat too.
Now the damage type advantages I don't see them fixing. Pyros and Destro Ascendants will have dominion in Icewynd, I dislike it but I don't see it changing. Asking for a Commandant's Standard artifact however allows a lot more tanky types who aren't Knights (monks and drunkbards for example) to fill what is essentially a niche role.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I don't have much an opinion on a standardbearer artifact right now, however Knights tend to be the archetypical tanks and certainly are prepared for the role in Lusternia (even before standardbearer, with Transmute, Surge, Weathering, Vitality, etc etc).
At a guess, I can see more group orientated bashing areas coming up in future. Not to say every future area will be a dedicated group area, maybe one in every 3-4. Said artifact is probably worth 200 credits due to situational use.
Here's the thing, the damage isn't the biggest issue, yes it'll kill non demigods, and if you're unlucky with aggression, some demigods too. The issue is the affliction spam is going to make it utter hell to fight through. You reduce the affliction spam and people will be able to solo it. Some people already can solo it, I've done it myself, it takes ages but it's possible to hack my way through an entire larva alone. If you cut down on the affliction output then myself and several others will be able to sit there and gather up a ton of essence and offerings without ever leaving the room.
Contrary to what some people may think, I don't actually want that, if I want to do that I'll go solo link astral for an hour. I like this as a group bashing zone, and I want it to be worth doing as a group bashing zone. The downside is it's probably the only way to make something a group hunting area that makes hunting alone completely non viable. Now the alternative would be to remove the hindering, tone down the direct damage and give them AoE damage auras split across a group, but for the numbers you need to kill off the soloists? That'll also kill lower levels.
I really don't see them making Standard Bearer a skill for all classes, I wouldn't object if they did, but I don't see it happening. Which is why I agree with the idea of an artifact, it'd also have other uses, again limited but there are places where you would want to not put lower levels at risk when hunting. Two person linking Astral for example, or hunting UV tunnel trash and aiming to not get your friend killed on groups of adoraths or cave-fishers.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Sat doing some napkin math today, the ultimate combination for a fast farm is two pyros/destro ascendants and a standard bearer Knight to get the best xp/hour ratio. I'd like to ask the Admin what setup they based their essence/hour ratio calculations on, and what they believe the acceptable ratio for Icewynd is at zero xp buff level.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Edit: Or, more accurately, a frozen broken-limbed and shattered popsicle in plate.
The issue is blacklung/frozen/paralysis/limbbreak/prone/fear spam on an entire group makes it a real bitch to try killing anything.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
As Morkarion said, it's not that they hit hard, it's that you need all that affliction spam to be on -one- target so that everyone else can actually murder them. If everyone is always frozen and unable to really attack, well, everyone's going to die a horrible death. That's the reason for needing a standardbearer, not the damage specifically. Others could tank that just fine, too.
If everyone else is able to attack then the devils / fiends die really fast, and thus don't add a lot of damage to the mix (and the tank can huddle in a little frozen iceball to survive another day).