Unused feature #2: Order wars

Ssaliss

With the other discussion idle, I figured I'd start the next, and due to the changes to how god realm raiding works, I figured I'd go for Order Wars.

Needless to say, this isn't my area of expertise at all, so start suggesting ideas!

Karlach

Well for a start #322 needs to be reversed and rethunk.

The problem with Order wars is they have to be done on mutual agreement, which may (not necessarily will) lead to wars that should exist through IC conflict being rejected because one side is bigger than the other.

Turnus

Okay here's my order conflict idea. Order Constructs of some sort (or maybe just shrines, I dunno) that can be built off prime (perhaps even only certain areas, like faethorn or astospheres) maybe a fourth type of shrine - essence shrines. They passively generate essence but otherwise have no combat effects or powers. No restrictions on raising or attacking them at certain times, orders don't lose buffs by missing them - orders that have them get more essence/epeen. And it opens up a spot for opt-in conflict without discretionaries, or waiting for specific times to be able to participate. Obviously a rough idea that would need fine tuning, but hey have at it.

Karlach

Edit: Scratch that I misread completely. I like this idea.

Kio

I'd like to see shrines changed on a whole, though it would be cool if they could be tied into Order Wars.

Frankly, I get really tired of being temporarily branded an enemy of a god just so your shrine will hit me during a domoth or wildnodes.  I really don't think you should be able to do that.  After all, being branded an enemy of a god seems like it should be kind of a big deal, and "Wildnodezzzzzzzzzzzz" just doesn't seem like I've said Zvoltz should be smashed into a billion pieces.

Everiine

I'd like to see shrines either:

1) Restricted to Order Wars and able to be raised only in Divine Realms, or,

2) Since the connection between Divines and cities/communes has been cemented, make shrines connected to a city/commune and have them affect city/commune enemies.

Kio

Everiine said:

I'd like to see shrines either:

1) Restricted to Order Wars and able to be raised only in Divine Realms, or,

2) Since the connection between Divines and cities/communes has been cemented, make shrines connected to a city/commune and have them affect city/commune enemies.

Then you're just gonna see temporary enemying to cities

Eventru

My only comment on this general topic is that it's hard to design a system that is encouraging to engage in but would be appealing to traditionally non-combatant orders.

With a unilateral order war system, you reach into the realm of forcing smaller orders or orders simply uninterested in competing (or incapable) to perpetually defend against a system they don't want to engage in. While "thems the breaks" can wipe some of that away, orders tend to appeal to a singular "type" of player – I can't, for example, see Crumkane's Flour Power Order being loaded with people interested in bashing heads in a PvP challenge. They become smaller facets of greater organizations (cities) and it may be best if a primary conflict system existed there, not orders. Guild vs Guild wouldn't be terribly exciting, either.

Not to say the system shouldn't exist as an option for gods/orders who want to engage in it, but I feel like it shouldn't be designed to be the primary form of PvP conflict.

I could see, though, changes to how it operates to facilitate that, or other "perks" for winning so as to encourage orders to want to compete on them beyond the feeling of kicking in another order's teeth.

Kio

Who says Order Wars have to be strictly for PK?  We could change that, after all.

Every order now have to specify their intent: peaceful or aggressive.  This is not something that can be easily changed, or changed at all.

Basics of the System

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Orders now have a specified intent: peaceful or aggressive.  Each intent creates a unique RP element to the order, as well as changes the powers of the various shrine types.

An aggressive order is an order meant to take part in battle.  The shrine powers for these orders remain what they are now.  Since these orders thrive in combat, incentives can be given to ensure they are fighting well (incentives in terms of essence, that is).

Peaceful orders do not thrive in combat.  Instead, they thrive on intellectual and aesthetic debate.  These orders have a propensity towards nonviolence, and as such, thrive in the thick of a good debate.  These orders' shrines would be changed in function, but remain named the same.  Incentives are given to ensure they are debating well (incentives in terms of essence).

Shrines

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Shrines can no longer be raised unless an order has specified its intent (to ensure that any order using shrines must engage in the Order Wars system - no, this is not a bad thing that will lead to griefing.  Read on.).  Shrines will only ever affect order enemies, as even though someone might do something harmful against an organization, they may not have done something harmful towards an order.  Orders may only enemy players for valid, RP reason.  Temporarily enemying a player for the sole purpose of having shrine powers affect them during a conflict event (domoth, revolt, flare, etc) will be considered abuse of the system and result in serious consquences.  Make sure that a player has earned enemy status before labeling them an enemy.

Aggressive orders will retain the same shrine powers.

Peaceful orders will have their shrine powers changed to reflect the nature of the order:

War shrines:

Wrath:  This power increases ego damage inflicted by debating or influencing for any order enemy within the shrine's influence.

Distort:  This power now prevents the use of influencing afflictions by order enemies (those cured with the focus enchantment).

Invasion:  This power now summons entities that will divert and aggressively influence order enemies.

Healing shrines:

Lifeforce:  This power now instantly heals the mana and ego of all order members within the shrine's influence, cures them of all influence afflictions, and grants them protection against the influence of enemies (a prismatic barrier for debating).

Replenish:  This power now passively restores mana and ego of all order members within the shrine's influence.

Allcure:  This power now passively cures influence afflictions of all order members within the shrine's influence.

Shield shrines:

Armour:  This power now decreases all ego damage from influencing and debating for all order members within the shrine's influence.

Pacification:  All debates initiated by order members within the shrine's influence will take twice as long to break (that is, when you've been separated).

Herald:  This power remains unchanged.

Personal powers can largely remain unchanged, as well.

Order Wars

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Order wars can now be openly declared without the consent of both orders.  Only orders which have declared their intent (and therefore can raise shrines) may participate in order wars.  Orders may declare war on multiple other orders.

Aggressive orders may only declare war on other aggressive orders.  Peaceful orders may only declare war on other peaceful orders.

Incentives are given, in terms of God essence, for slaying enemies of your order (for aggressive orders) and for shattering the ego of enemies of your order (for peaceful orders).

God Realms and Raids

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Realms of aggressive orders remain almost unchanged (after reverting the recent change).  They are open-PK.  However, dying in an enemy's realm results in the loss of essence for your God and the gain of essence for the God who controls the realm (meaning if you die by a priestess, Eventru gets essence).  Killing an enemy in your God's realm awards bonus essence for that death.  Now there is a reason to defend.  The largest change is that the mobs of these realms are no longer able to be influenced.  Instead, they can be given the corpses of the inhabitants of an enemy's god realm.  This would result in an amount of experience, essence, and gold similar to what they give now for influencing or being killed.  Only one corpse may be given to a mob within a specific time frame, and this time frame is the same of the rate of shuffling for influencing.  These mobs are worth no experience when slain and drop no gold.  This means that, in order to gain experience from these mobs, you must turn in their corpses to your own mobs.  This preserves the fun of building a god realm for the God while also holds no consequences for a God who does not wish to have a massive realm (as the number of mobs worth experience will be the exact same for both warring orders).

Realms of peaceful orders are now peaced.  No aggressive actions may be performed on other players or mobs.  Order members may influence these mobs.  Successful influence will result in receiving an item that may then be given to the mobs within an enemy god's realm.  Upon giving this item to that mob, the mob begins to contemplate the philosophies of both gods and becomes so caught up in their thought that they may not be influenced again.  This state will last the same amount of time influence recovery does and will reward the player with experience, gold, and essence for their god.  Players who get the ego shattered within an enemy's realm will award that God with essence and penalize the essence of that player's God.  Shattering an enemy in your God's realm will increase this essence reward.

Now we have meaningful, valuable order conflict that doesn't only revolve around PK.  We also no longer have to worry about massive shrine wars.  We also now have an avenue of debate conflict that doesn't revolve around revolts.

Apologies if this is only half-formed.  I read Eventru's post while using the restroom and this is what happened in my head.

Karlach

I'd love to see Order wars bypass Avechna on Prime for Middle/Inner circle.

I'm thinking too much like War Declarations in EVE, but if you make it so the violent orders will not be ruthlessly killing peaceful orders who go quietly about their business without bothering anyone.

Malayn

We should fix mob wandering code so some realms dont get 11 mobs in one room so they can defend themselves.

And yes, revert 322, that was just a terrible idea.  Now it self defends and its impossible to stop them from spam influencing if they want!

Lothringen

I dislike the notion of "peaceful" orders. Most, if not all, orders have at least one ideology that puts them at odds with other orders in the Basin. If you subscribe to a certain set of religious ideals, you should prepare to have those ideals challenged, often forcefully. Certainly, some orders are more militant than others, but declaring yourself a "peaceful" order shouldn't magically make you immune from harm from those with other methods. It's just part of a realistic world, in my opinion - there are going to be sacrifices you have to make for your belief system.

If, for example, Eventru's order declared themselves peaceful, yet espoused the idea that the world should be ridden of the taint, we're evil, etc., why should I, as a member of Morgfyre's order, not attack them? Why should there be some magical force that prevents me from attempting to destroy an ideal that wishes the destruction of my own? That's pretty much the basis of all conflict in Lusternia, so disabling it for orders feels a little too "we'll hold your hands on this" to me. This sorta ties in with the whole order mob change, too.

I feel as though a lot of the ferocity in the world has been taken out to appeal to everyone living these hunky dory lives, unaware that we're all in a deaTH MATCH FOR LIFE AND DEATH ON THE BRINK OF TOTAL ANNIHILATION AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT.

Kio

That's pretty much my thought exactly.  The problem seems to be, though, that not everyone wants their internet alter-ego to have to deal with that.  Some people would rather not have conflict at all.

While I'd much rather just say, "Too bad, suck it up.  Life's hard, princess," it seems the only sort of ideas that are heard are the ones that are at least willing to pander to the individual who would rather never have to use one of those trans'd skills they have.  

Karlach

I think any order where a God is outspoken and provocative cannot declare themselves peaceful.

Them's fightin' words.

Xenthos

No thanks to being in an Order making you open-PK on Prime.  We don't need people discouraged from joining Orders with the kind of griefing that would enable, especially if the new system allows for one-sided declarations.

Revamping orders wars is great, but leave Avechna out of it please.

Karlach

I think if it allows for open end (but not outside the order) fighting on Prime it would have to be a mutual war thing. Otherwise it is essentially a griefbox tool at that point.


I still like the idea of off prime constructs to Gods.

Enyalida

I like the idea of constructs, and different sorts of order war theaters of combat, depending on the orders in question. As long as it's the gods having to actually initiate the wars, or at least okay them and hit a switch, it shouldn't get too out of hand. 

Also, restricting shrine area powers to the order wars or personal buff use only sounds like a fantastic plan.

Lavinya

I don't want people to have free reign to kill me on prime for being in an order, tyvm. I'm all in favour of giving avenues for conflict that I can choose to not participate in, not ones that mean I can't even safely wander outside the aetherplex because Avechna won't cover my ass. Nononono.