Changelog 360/Skillflex

24

Comments

  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,681 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    Morkarion said:
    You can't swoop in Crowform because you need the Crow Perch skill to be able to do it, Nightgaze/Nightkiss don't have that restriction. I understand what you're arguing, but you're missing my point. It's not that having all three skills together is OP. It's having one of those skills out of it's tree in another tree with that tree's actives. Nightkiss with pits for example, a harder to kill tracker with strong personal offence and their amazing crow control.

    Poison expert and Crowform in Night don't give the same strong benefits. Chance your weapon poisons won't get resisted so much and +1 weighted int, your caw going from a fear to a mana drain (questionable which is better) and a heal on bashing kill. My position isn't weaker because one of them is strong outside it's spec and the other two aren't. They're small gains outside of their skill set, Nightkiss is powerful no matter what you are, if you still can't see that difference then I can't really explain it any easier for you.

    My annoyance as stated is the fact that the history of this report has been poorly handled, there's been moments in this report's history, right back to the suggestion of it where balance wasn't the motivation for some people, it was to spite certain players and a dislike of a certain archtype. I'm glad that the other envoys have taken the time to try and fix a poor implementation (though really, you think jealousy outside of Dramaturgy isn't as strong as Crowform outside of Night? I know which I'd rather have in a heartbeat.) but that doesn't change the fact this report was and still somewhat is an example of how the envoy system shouldn't be used. Not because of the concern regarding game mechanics, but the motives of some people (envoys and non envoys alike) who've been involved in this report.

    And yes that is the underlying issue that's been nagging at me, I just didn't want to post it here because of the dramallama it's going to cause when certain people rush to try and justify themselves despite me not pointing out names.

    I also still believe that this report has left more problems than it fixed, and problems that are more likely in some respects (hello tracking) to get the reply of "We'd rather just wait till the overhaul rather than redesign this skill) That doesn't mean I'm not open to trying, I'm just not very positive on it having a successful outcome.

    And while this was an issue to address, I still don't think it was as high up as other things that should be fixed, which are sadly concerns that will never see the light of day because some envoys have no sense of responsibility with regards to overall game balance rather than just maintaining their class remains powerful.
    Rapidfire, unfair accusations of wanting to spite people and improperly envoying things ignored, rest assured more defenses are being added to the list and the envoys have met and talked about it. Morkarion, I do think you're having a very kneejerk reaction to these changes and taking them far too personally, and it is showing. Yes, it can sting to be nerfed at times, but you sometimes have to accept it when it is necessary and justified. That's all I'm going to say on this topic since it's getting needlessly nasty, insulting and stressful. I don't think you'd like being an envoy very much.

    Keep in mind, I nerfed my own guild hardest of all the ones listed. I feel like that should say something.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    It's too easy to dodge criticism of the fact you handled the original list poorly as "Oh you're just kneejerking to a nerf" because unless you're employing selective reasoning you'll see several times where I've said this was something that did need implementing and a lot of what affects me I'm fine with. As for the spite accusations, as stated I didn't want to bring that up, nor am I naming names or implicating any specific people involved, but some (not all) people in this report didn't have a hand in it because they wanted to balance and better the game, they wanted certain people nerfed out of spite. Fortunately it's worked out for the better somewhat in the end (see previous comments about causing other problems that hopefully can be resolved) but lets not kid ourselves into thinking the entire history of this report was done with good and honest intentions.

    The fact that malice is a factor in the envoy system at any level is something to point out, and if anyone's going to start calling it unfair and start putting it down as a kneejerk, they're actually taking it personally. Whether it's actually necessary for them to do so or not.

    No one's still given a real justification for some of the buffs on the list, let's take one that doesn't affect me for example, enhancement. Does it give huge offensive and defensive boosts at the same time? No, does it give a variety of new or improved abilities? No. Does it even persist through death? Actually I don't know that one but I'm fairly confident it doesn't. That's not necessary, nor really is it justified unless "lets nerf monks however we can" is a justification these days.

    And you're right, I wouldn't enjoy being an envoy, not because I've no problem in calling for reasonable balances both positive and negative to my own class, but to sit there and watch other envoys do nothing month after month when there's key issues in their class to address, or to watch others try and pile more buffs on rather than address balancing issues which will be forever the reason they'll meet resistance in their other reports. To watch all that and be expected to do something about it from the class I represent, when the admin make it increasingly difficult for people to nerf abilities outside their own circle of influence? Yeah, I'd hate that a lot.


    Edit: Also I'm pretty sure Monks will argue over who got "Most nerfed."

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    edited October 2013
    Morkarion said:


    No one's still given a real justification for some of the buffs on the list, let's take one that doesn't affect me for example, enhancement. Does it give huge offensive and defensive boosts at the same time? No, does it give a variety of new or improved abilities? No. Does it even persist through death? Actually I don't know that one but I'm fairly confident it doesn't. That's not necessary, nor really is it justified unless "lets nerf monks however we can" is a justification these days.


    Edit: Also I'm pretty sure Monks will argue over who got "Most nerfed."

    A extra +2 weighted dexterity on a skillset that already has a weighted dexterity buff and isn't balanced with the extra +2 weight in mind... that includes dodging?  On a class where dexterity increases damage and wounding output?  An extra +2 weighted dexterity that increases stance and parry success and already has access to deflect?

    I believe that is a pretty big buff to both offense and defense.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    Reasoning? Reason: If it is a defense you will not lose when you die, you should not be able to keep it when skillflexing, period. Who cares if the defenses are good or not? I just suggested that all of the trances should be sure and clear when you skillflex, because though most of them are pretty damn minor effects... they will persist for up to an IG month, and none of the skillsets are really balanced around or designed to be paired with effects from non-concurrent skillsets.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    It's a buff to offence and defence but we're kidding ourselves to say it's big.

    So you're gaining a +2 weighted bonus to dexterity. That's +1 stat point, +1 stat point is a buff, but it's overblowing it to consider it a big buff. It makes a difference you can measure in numbers, but it's not going to turn a monk from having average damage and mitigation to suddenly being tanky and hitting like a truck.

    Furthermore, factoring in the fact most monks are Aslaran/Faeling for the high dex and the balance bonus, before you even take the extra stat point gained from this you're already in the 20's for your dexterity stat, diminishing returns have kicked in and you're not even getting a full benefit. It's not gamebreaking, it's one of the things that will go when the game changes but there's plenty of those examples.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    Enyalida said:
     Who cares if the defenses are good or not? 
    Well if they're not good, they're not overpowered, this quick fix was to eliminate overpowered defences. If they're not powerful defences but instead small gains that min/maxers like to put together for a bigger payoff using various means at their disposal, they weren't suppose to be affected in this post report list, the game isn't broken and utterly imbalanced if they survived long enough till the overhaul makes this entire scenario a past memory.

    Skillflexing is suppose to have the benefit of retaining abilities from other specs this has been said before by Estarra that it's intended, some of them were individually too powerful because of what they did offensively or defensively and that's why Rivius was told to give a list to Iosai. Persisting through death doesn't make an ability suddenly powerful, have you ever gone up against someone and gone "wow they were tougher/hitting hard, they were clearly using enhancement as an acrobat?" No, because individually it's a small gain, I bet you'd not tell the difference between an Ebonguard with or without Crowform if you didn't look at their description (unless a Knight started using caw for reasons unknown), because again small gain.

    But can you tell the difference when someone uses Nightkiss/Drawdown out of spec? Oh indeed, they're dealing more wounds, hitting faster, hitting harder and your damage against them is much less effective. You can tell someone using forced symmetry out of spec, or bloodboil when they're bleeding and their ego takes the hit. You can tell when a non Dramaturgy bard kept jealousy because you're pretty damn sure other specs don't hit that hard normally. These are powerful buffs, these are the few that were skewing the game out of balance. Whether they persist through death or not is what should be considered irrelevant, their individual strength is the only merit they should have been decided upon.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    Morkarion said:
    It's a buff to offence and defence but we're kidding ourselves to say it's big.

    So you're gaining a +2 weighted bonus to dexterity. That's +1 stat point, +1 stat point is a buff, but it's overblowing it to consider it a big buff. It makes a difference you can measure in numbers, but it's not going to turn a monk from having average damage and mitigation to suddenly being tanky and hitting like a truck.

    Furthermore, factoring in the fact most monks are Aslaran/Faeling for the high dex and the balance bonus, before you even take the extra stat point gained from this you're already in the 20's for your dexterity stat, diminishing returns have kicked in and you're not even getting a full benefit. It's not gamebreaking, it's one of the things that will go when the game changes but there's plenty of those examples.

    I vaguely remember a particular person saying that faeling became a terrible warrior race after losing +1 to strength.

    I won't name any names *coughitwasyoucough*
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    A problem does not need to be game breaking for a fix to be effective or desirable. Is that under dispute somehow?

     Regardless of statements from administration, the game wasn't designed for defenses from multiple terts to be active, and even with the cord is still generally balanced assuming you only have access to one of your given secondaries/terts. That you could gather up the defenses from multiple skillsets might have been nice (and not a bug, because the people who decide such things say so), but it was definitely a misfeature.  Fixing it might cause some hurt feelings, but in the long run, it's better for balancing the game to keep defenses from different skillsets separate.

    In my opinion, fixing ALL of them is the only way to avoid the malice and jockying you brought up, @Morkarion. If only certain defenses are chosen to be changed, who gets to decide, and using what criteria? Where is the line drawn between "Okay" and "Too much"? No, the best way is to make any persistent defs fade and go from there.Personally,  I would just make skillflexing wipe your character, honestly. You lose ALL defenses when you skillflex a guild skill (I don't think any trades have DEF defenses, do they?) including both temporary and persistent defenses. 
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    Ah taking things out of context AND comparing apples to oranges all in one sentence. A Knight going from 17 to 18 strength and Monk going from 2x to 2x+1 dexterity are completely different scenarios, and that's before you ignore the fact the latter is also reduced further by diminishing returns.

    Then you look at what wounds do for Knights and what wounds do for Monks, not counting the fact some Monk specs don't even need to care about wounds that much at all, they've other ways to kill you. Faeling being capped at 17 strength as a race (not buffs that you can get in a multitude of ways but the actual ceiling cap) means they struggle to stay ahead of wound curing, you've seen that yourself first hand. You're trying to take a comment regarding what +1 dex is going to do to a Monk in diminishing returns and apply it to a discussion about how a race with a warrior archetype is unable to ever hit the needed strength to be really effective in combat.

    Now sure, if it was viable to be a Monk in a race where thanks to the skillflex option you can be a walking brick shithouse that hits like a truck but naturally has low dexterity, overted by the fact you have enhancement to bring you up to the dexterity sweetspot, you'd have a point. But there isn't such race.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,681 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    A monk is the one who suggested it to me. I'm sure I can get monks on either side of the argument, but what's the point? It's gone. You want acrobatics defenses, be an acrobat. You want psychometabolism defenses, be a psycho...metabolist....?
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    Enyalida said:
    A problem does not need to be game breaking for a fix to be effective or desirable. Is that under dispute somehow?

    When you're given a criteria of what to suggest, and that criteria is for gamebreaking defences then yes, in this instance it is. Otherwise you might as well do all of them at once, which Iosai outright stated is something that will wait for the combat overhaul.

     Regardless of statements from administration, the game wasn't designed for defenses from multiple terts to be active, and even with the cord is still generally balanced assuming you only have access to one of your given secondaries/terts.

    With respect, you've given an opinion. Your opinion doesn't dictate game balance, especially when the admin (who do design, balance, code and oversee the game) come out and say contradictory. This is a throwaway statement that holds no weight, people might agree with it, but that doesn't make it true. Especially when "skillflex will fix it" has been a given explanation to deny issues in the game's balance regarding skillsets.

     That you could gather up the defenses from multiple skillsets might have been nice (and not a bug, because the people who decide such things say so), but it was definitely a misfeature.  Fixing it might cause some hurt feelings, but in the long run, it's better for balancing the game to keep defenses from different skillsets separate.

    I was more than content for gamebreakers to get quickly fixed, knowing that a full overhaul wasn't going to happen now. The problem is this hasn't fixed the problem at hand entirely, and has caused new problems in its wake, which (not that I'm against trying) probably won't also get fixed until the overhaul. I don't believe this change has made the game better, I'm not saying I disagree with the premise, or that certain abilities were overpowered or needed to be off skillflex (though some how people are really good at missing this part. Maybe I should underline it and make the text 3 times larger) But I am saying it was part of a much bigger sequence of problems which require a lot of changes across the board to fix.


    In my opinion, fixing ALL of them is the only way to avoid the malice and jockying you brought up, @Morkarion. If only certain defenses are chosen to be changed, who gets to decide, and using what criteria? Where is the line drawn between "Okay" and "Too much"? No, the best way is to make any persistent defs fade and go from there.Personally,  I would just make skillflexing wipe your character, honestly. You lose ALL defenses when you skillflex a guild skill (I don't think any trades have DEF defenses, do they?) including both temporary and persistent defenses. 

    There's one I'm neglecting to mention on the basis that it has no impact in combat, despite the fact it persists through death, log out and skillflex, because a lot of people use it for roleplay. In the end skillflex will be a thing of the past, the game will be designed so that it's not a bandaid to work around skillsets that need external support to be competitive and people sat with a 1k credit artifact feel there's still value in it. (Note the current state of the skillflex cord and if it's worth what was paid for it, doesn't do what it did when bought with that intention etc. etc. is another discussion entirely I have my opinion on but I'm not going to go into that here)

    But till then, we've got this, where to fix one hole in the garden we dug up a couple more for soil to fill it in. The end result, there's a messy brown patch in the ground and a couple of new holes. Anyone who thought you could just fix skillflexing and that it would have no knock on effects to game balance, class balance, skill balance and artifact value is either naive or delusional.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    So I assume then you're more than on board to work towards improving sub par skillsets that were balanced by skillflex, and told that improving them wasn't going to happen because skillflex existed?

    Though it somewhat still sort of does exist, albeit not as potent as it was before.

    Because if you're going to do a job of something, you might as well do a full job right? Oh wait that's what the combat overhaul was for, and call me cynical but I don't think the admin are keen to see a rework of tracking and major bonuses to Crow for Knights before that happens.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,681 Transcendent
    Morkarion said:
    Enyalida said:
    A problem does not need to be game breaking for a fix to be effective or desirable. Is that under dispute somehow?

    When you're given a criteria of what to suggest, and that criteria is for gamebreaking defences then yes, in this instance it is. Otherwise you might as well do all of them at once, which Iosai outright stated is something that will wait for the combat overhaul.

     Regardless of statements from administration, the game wasn't designed for defenses from multiple terts to be active, and even with the cord is still generally balanced assuming you only have access to one of your given secondaries/terts.

    With respect, you've given an opinion. Your opinion doesn't dictate game balance, especially when the admin (who do design, balance, code and oversee the game) come out and say contradictory. This is a throwaway statement that holds no weight, people might agree with it, but that doesn't make it true. Especially when "skillflex will fix it" has been a given explanation to deny issues in the game's balance regarding skillsets.

     That you could gather up the defenses from multiple skillsets might have been nice (and not a bug, because the people who decide such things say so), but it was definitely a misfeature.  Fixing it might cause some hurt feelings, but in the long run, it's better for balancing the game to keep defenses from different skillsets separate.

    I was more than content for gamebreakers to get quickly fixed, knowing that a full overhaul wasn't going to happen now. The problem is this hasn't fixed the problem at hand entirely, and has caused new problems in its wake, which (not that I'm against trying) probably won't also get fixed until the overhaul. I don't believe this change has made the game better, I'm not saying I disagree with the premise, or that certain abilities were overpowered or needed to be off skillflex (though some how people are really good at missing this part. Maybe I should underline it and make the text 3 times larger) But I am saying it was part of a much bigger sequence of problems which require a lot of changes across the board to fix.


    In my opinion, fixing ALL of them is the only way to avoid the malice and jockying you brought up, @Morkarion. If only certain defenses are chosen to be changed, who gets to decide, and using what criteria? Where is the line drawn between "Okay" and "Too much"? No, the best way is to make any persistent defs fade and go from there.Personally,  I would just make skillflexing wipe your character, honestly. You lose ALL defenses when you skillflex a guild skill (I don't think any trades have DEF defenses, do they?) including both temporary and persistent defenses. 

    There's one I'm neglecting to mention on the basis that it has no impact in combat, despite the fact it persists through death, log out and skillflex, because a lot of people use it for roleplay. In the end skillflex will be a thing of the past, the game will be designed so that it's not a bandaid to work around skillsets that need external support to be competitive and people sat with a 1k credit artifact feel there's still value in it. (Note the current state of the skillflex cord and if it's worth what was paid for it, doesn't do what it did when bought with that intention etc. etc. is another discussion entirely I have my opinion on but I'm not going to go into that here)

    But till then, we've got this, where to fix one hole in the garden we dug up a couple more for soil to fill it in. The end result, there's a messy brown patch in the ground and a couple of new holes. Anyone who thought you could just fix skillflexing and that it would have no knock on effects to game balance, class balance, skill balance and artifact value is either naive or delusional.

    "With respect, you've given an opinion. Your opinion doesn't dictate game balance, especially when the admin (who do design, balance, code and oversee the game) come out and say contradictory. This is a throwaway statement that holds no weight, people might agree with it, but that doesn't make it true. Especially when "skillflex will fix it" has been a given explanation to deny issues in the game's balance regarding skillsets."

    You keep saying this, but Estarra never said it was intended in the design. When the cord came out and it was brought up, she stated we'd treat it as a feature for now (meaning it wasn't really intended, but we'll wait and see) and if it was considered OP, we could bring it up on envoys. We did. The admin, who make up the Furies made a decision. Turns out that decision is contradictory to what you're saying. I'm not sure why you can't see that. The fact that my report was accepted is already proof that you're in the wrong here.

    Despite however small you might think the defense is, each skillset was intended to be standalone and does not require any buffs from outside skillsets. If you think they do, envoy an equal buff in that skillset itself and do things properly. I see no reason why a Night warrior needs Crowform when it seems universally agreed that Night is perfectly fine as it is!

    In regards to the malice argument, I conducted the report without any input from whoever you think it was from. You can have my word on that. I asked for some suggestions on what to envoy, it was a topic that was brought up and everyone seemed to agree it was something to be tackled. After that I was on my own. My report was very general and the specific list was something that came after. Whatever process you think was conducted to spite you is nothing more than imaginary. I admit my list was perhaps too small and envoys have graciously suggested more to be added and we're going to see some more get through if all things go well.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent

    Morkarion said:
    So I assume then you're more than on board to work towards improving sub par skillsets that were balanced by skillflex, and told that improving them wasn't going to happen because skillflex existed?

    Though it somewhat still sort of does exist, albeit not as potent as it was before.

    Because if you're going to do a job of something, you might as well do a full job right? Oh wait that's what the combat overhaul was for, and call me cynical but I don't think the admin are keen to see a rework of tracking and major bonuses to Crow for Knights before that happens.

    Whoa whoa whoa, no one said that skillsets -weren't- going to be improved because of skillflex. Xenthos just said he didn't bother envoying crow because of skillflex. 



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    Two wrongs do not make a right, no skillset was balanced by misfeatured skillflex defenses.

    But yes, I'd be happy to see a rework of Crow.... and Stag (which is in the same basket, like it or lump it),  and Woodchems, and Demenses, and Knighthood in general (to make it less random/artifact dependent, and have a smaller range of power), and monks, and shrines, and, and....  By all means, improve away. 

    While I am up for improvements, it should be noted that a "nerf" that is really a bugfix needs not be justified by equivalent return buffs. If there is a bug or misfeature, it should be quashed for the good of the game and balance overall. Balance by holding onto as many misfeatures/bugs as possible is probably the worst sort of balance possible. 
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,681 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    Also, please don't just fall into the defeatist attitude of "I tried this therefore it won't work". As an envoy, I've tried things too that didn't work before (eg. See my grace report and the standing on grace before that). Give a good argument for why you need it, give it some good thought and give it another try. If it's a good report, you might be surprised they change their minds.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    Again, my suggestion is to work out a way code-side that ALL defenses can be wiped at once, no exceptions, and keep that in mind for any future defenses, that way there is no pick and choose. What is the alternative, you lose all persistent defenses except crowform/nightkiss (insert ANY other of the defenses here), because it's balanced for those skillsets and not for any of the others? That's... sketchy at best. 

    EDIT: And when reading the report when it was actually submitted, this sort of thing is what I thought was going to happen. Not our fault it wasn't possible, so don't go pointing fingers saying "You were singling us ouuuut".
  • HiriakoHiriako Member Posts: 374 Expert
    I don't want all defenses to be wiped. After all, some of those cost power. A LOT cost power. I'd hate to have to redef every time I wanted to fiddle with another spec.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    It's also more to the fact I am cynical of any large changes being made now before the overhaul. This report is a prime example of that, Skillflexing buffs weren't removed entirely, but it's something that will happen come the overhaul.

    Yet I see things that are as major in terms of fixing for sake of game balance that can't be partially fixed, the biggest one being tracking. As I've said nobody finds pits fun, and there's no fun in sitting in the middle of a fight playing alias war with another tracker while everyone targets you, especially now all Knights have lost various amounts of offensive and defensive capability as a tracker that meant they were able to enjoy the game. Yet pits are so strong in group combat people will still feel obliged or be pressured to take tracking. The skillset needs an overhaul, and that's not a small job, which (again having to repeat myself because again people aren't reading) I'm more than happy to work on and try, but my cynicism is that it will get the reply of "this is a large change which we would rather handle in the overhaul." Which then leaves you with a hole in the garden and nothing to fill it with.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    Wicca and Druidry both have different skills in the same spots between Shadowdancers/Moondancers and Hartsone/Blacktalon.  Is it not possible to do the same thing with other guilds that share terts as well?  Keep X% the same between Y guilds that share the skill, but flag warrior guild A to get some sort of warriory buff, and flag wiccan guild B to get a different buff in the same slot.  It would seem like the underlying code to do this is already in place.  Of course, that would then mean you'd need to actually come up with said skills.  But, this could be a way to buff Crow/Stag/whatever without impacting the other class.  Come to think of it, a lot of those shared skills like Runes and Hexes could potentially benefit from the same thing.

    Of course, what with them doing their combat overhaul, I'd doubt the viability of this suggestion.  But it might be an idea worth floating.
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  • HiriakoHiriako Member Posts: 374 Expert
    That's something I've wanted to see for shared skills for a while, Tark. With Runes/Dreamweaving all having something unique for guilds, or at least 'these are druid skills, these are mage skills'. In this case, it's a matter of 'You possess Stag, so you get these extra skills in Druidry' or 'You possess Moon, so you get these extra skills in Wicca'. You could do that with Knighthood too, which might be neat.

  • UshaaraUshaara Schrödinger's Traitor Member Posts: 1,272 Transcendent
    I haven't been around enough to really contribute to this debate as an envoy, but I'm also firmly in the "Yes, all defences from non-active skills should go dormant/be removed on skillflex" camp.

    I can see how some might see the current list as arbitrary, and question why some defences are included and not others. Myself? I don't know who originally proposed the Aeonics abilities, but Insight + Timelessbody being included and not Mindclock, which is far, far better than Insight/Timelessbody for survivability, is bizarre to me. I suggested all Aeonics defences should be included if those two were being picked out. (I forgot Contingency @Rivius)

    What matters though is that this is a step in the right direction. Yes, some skills might take more of a nerf at this point in time, some others might not take any hit, but there are a huge number of abilities for envoys/admin to consider and of course some will be missed or neglected.

    I can sympathise with Crow being a sub-par choice for the Ebonguard, and I know the difficulty of improving skills and coming up with mechanics that are feasible, appropriate and balanced that the admin will like. But I agree with everyone else who said as much, that while you and others may not consider Crowform/PoisonExpert to be game-breaking, they should go dormant when you skillflex. I would disagree with claims of malice in which abilities are suggested for inclusion, commune warriors with weapon-auras, Stag/Crowform, facepaints + tracking benefits are simply the highest profile offenders who benefit from this issue.

    Hopefully the revamp will roll it out to all defences and everything will be made equitable, but if not, this need not be a 'final' implementation. The envoy system may be slow and piecemeal, but you are represented.

  • RevanRevan Member Posts: 90 Capable
    What amazes me is that you guys are still bothering to reply to mork. Carry on!
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    Mindclock was brought up but the reason I didn't It was needed if because it's available construct for most the population, plus it's really only pertinent against specific classes

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,613 Transcendent
    All class specific defenses should drop upon skillflex. A specific trans skill being arguably crappy isn't reasonable grounds for rejecting the idea as a whole when it comes to overall balance.

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  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    Except no one argued that, and I'm done explaining myself for the nth time when people are selectively quoting, making strawman arguments and taking things out of context.

    I'm all for discussion, but with people who actually want to discuss, not replicate talking to a brick wall.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    Irony.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    Enyalida said:
    Irony.
    I'm selectively quoting, making strawman arguments and taking other people's posts out of context?

    If you're going to throw out one word "farm likes" posts in an attempt to sound clever, at least make them accurate.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,206 Transcendent
    Farm likes? Seems legit :D
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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