This is literally a life and death situation and Avechna would risk hindering one of the people who could save Lusternia just because he/she "bullied" someone? You're making a mountain out of a molehill...
Will you still love me when I am no longer young and fergalicious?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
First line removed due to forum rules. Reply from support@lusternia.
When Estarra discovered there was a possibility that the Avenger could be used against a Sealbearer (this was issued), it was decided that this would not only be poor sportsmanship to allow but also considerably poor roleplaying if Avechna were to punish someone while asking them to save existence. In this case, the most logical move was to have Avechna suspend avenger activities this event.
There are 8 other seal holders, Avechna could have easily said a bully was unfit to stand as an ascendant. As I said before, peaced people can still claim TA in every way. Avechna does not have to ask us to save existence, we just do it, and why he is overlooking his defined duty of punishing people is questionable. We know for a fact one person will "save us", and we know it does not matter who, so this logic that Avechna "would risk hindering one of the people who could save Lusternia just because he/she "bullied" someone" is a load of crap, it bears no risk since we know at that point we will be saved.
First line removed due to forum rules. Reply from support@lusternia.
When Estarra discovered there was a possibility that the Avenger could be used against a Sealbearer (this was issued), it was decided that this would not only be poor sportsmanship to allow but also considerably poor roleplaying if Avechna were to punish someone while asking them to save existence. In this case, the most logical move was to have Avechna suspend avenger activities this event.
So, what you're saying is that someone issued this -this- year, and this decision was made?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
The decision to temporarily nullify any pacification effects was made this year, yes.
As I said before, the ability to call Vengeance has always been impossible during any Trial. The only change was that the effects of Vengeance (pacification) were also nullified for the duration of the Final Trial.
The decision to temporarily nullify any pacification effects was made this year, yes.
As I said before, the ability to call Vengeance has always been impossible during any Trial. The only change was that the effects of Vengeance (pacification) were also nullified for the duration of the Final Trial.
So you've never been able to call Vengeance during the Ascension before, but now the pacification from being called before Ascension has been removed?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
"Special Kelly Rule"? I'm not entirely sure what it is you're trying to imply. Certainly, nobody would deliberately use the Avenger system to try to compete a seal bearer from trying to compete on the final competition after they won a seal, and it seems within the realm of fairness to ensure that everyone is capable of for their Champion of choice. I note Vengeance has never been callable during any Trial, Final or otherwise, since the first Trial of the first Ascension. I'm just reiterating what the general mechanics are, some of which are unknown simply because people have never tried to use them in such manners. Talk about being the king of useless information!
Well it was mostly tongue in cheek but I am curios as to why the rule has spontaneously popped up and the playerbase been made aware for the first time when a rumor has started circulating that Celest's sole seal bearer coincidentally bullied someone. I'd like to note that I was TDF'd two years ago during the war seal and when I issued it to see if I could have it delayed so I could compete, I was told the admin don't make special rules or delay punishments to accomodate self inflicted punishments. So that's...not true anymore I guess.
Being peaced by the avenger is entirely self imposed. Are you really not so vaguely accusing someone of abusing the system by using the system? Wasn't there an envoy conversation a couple days ago about admin disliking rule exceptions?
I'm just saying it's silly and the timing is interesting. It won't matter, if Kelly is the staff holder, not like she'll be fighting anyways. Just observing an interesting scenario!
It's not a special Kelly rule. All other sealbearers are under its protection, as well. Seriously, though, the pacification is being postponed, and I don't really think your strategy for the upcoming challenge hinged on Kelly's being pacified.
This is just like any other issue that leads to a consideration of a scenario that hasn't been considered before.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Oh gosh, I hadn't read the rest of the thread. It was seriously mostly a joke.
All the other seal bearers aren't subject to vengeance right now. Only one is, and apparently Avechna is overlooking his reason for creation for one day to make an exception for a specific person.
The decision to temporarily nullify any pacification effects was made this year, yes.
As I said before, the ability to call Vengeance has always been impossible during any Trial. The only change was that the effects of Vengeance (pacification) were also nullified for the duration of the Final Trial.
So you've never been able to call Vengeance during the Ascension before, but now the pacification from being called before Ascension has been removed?
Not removed, merely temporarily nullified, It resumes afterwards - essentially, Vengeance does not interfere with the Final Trial, for everyone, for ever.
My philosophy on it is this - the tactic is unfair and mean-spirited in nature, irrelevant of who is using it. Often, unfair tactics are changed after it's been misused - and so someone is forced to suffer its abuse, and then when it is changed, cries of bias often rise, claiming those who used it are now being protected - unless the ones who suffered it are able to vindictively abuse it to the great suffering of those who abused it first. Only then is it "a good fix" on all sides.
Frankly, that what undoubtedly become a bitter and contentious situation (that would have lead to a great deal of angst and crying on both sides) has been headed off and that a questionable use of the Avenger system has been closed, is a good thing - irrelevant of who "profits" from it. Certainly, were the tables reversed, the decision would be the same, only some now bothered by it would instead be praising it.
I think anyone who steps back and views it rationally and objectively would more or less come to the same conclusion. It doesn't make sense from a perspective of Roleplay, nor does it really sound "fair" from a gameplay perspective.
Didn't realize it was a mean tactic to try to take vengeance on someone who slew you twice even though Avenger very clearly tells you not to. This rule should maybe have been reviewed for next year, not the day before it would actually happen. No one made Kelly give vengeance to someone, she did that all on her own, but now the rules from the mountain are suddenly changing. Peacing does not change her ability to take a seal, it should not be considered a problem.
As seems to be ignored. It is "fair" to peace someone, it does not effect their ability to take a seal. Someone holding the staff does not enter combat, can kill keth bits without attacking them, and can still be attacked. Nothing in avechnas peacing stops you from taking a seal. My objective conclusion was this "tactic" does not stop her at all, it only prevents her from entering into combat, which only happens if she doesnt have the seal, under which case I expect Avechna to do his job.
Clearly it does not matter that the timing and rationale are beyond suspicious. This will likely not change as Eventru has never changed his mind before, and why would he ever throw kelly under the bus?
QUICK EDIT: Nor do I think Eventru could reverse this on his own. He is just the admin talking about it.
I can't really agree with the notion that a tactic used based on a mechanic that holds the target culpable for their own actions as unfair.
The tactic would not be viable if the targeted party had not been reckless in their actions, I think in terms of metaphors it's like a teacher punishing a student. Rather than punishing them with detention for a few days there and then, they choose to ban them from the class's end of year trip to an amusement park instead.
Avenger has always been withheld and used at a time it will inflict the most harm on the person who brought the situation to bear. That's the risk you take of going PK CAREFUL OFF, you've made your choice to act and thus the decision holds in the hands of the grieved.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Didn't realize it was a mean tactic to try to take vengeance on someone who slew you twice even though Avenger very clearly tells you not to. This rule should maybe have been reviewed for next year, not the day before it would actually happen. No one made Kelly give vengeance to someone, she did that all on her own, but now the rules from the mountain are suddenly changing. Peacing does not change her ability to take a seal, it should not be considered a problem.
Except that's not what's being referred to by 'mean tactic'. 'Mean tactic' is the part when the Vengeance-r waits right before Ascension to call down Vengeance to peace Vengeance-e, and limit his or her participation in the most important event of the Lusternian year.
It's very easy not to get a vengeance status on someone. The consequences of having said status are well known, and well established. There are even mechanical methods of avoiding said statuses (PK CAREFUL ON). So, I think the onus is on the person who put themselves in this position in the first place, and not on the administration to make a change (whether it's a new rule, or a previously unmentioned exception to an old rule that we haven't heard of until now) that accommodates a sealbearer who has f@#$ed up.
I believe it is called vengeance for a reason. You do it at the time of greatest effect, not when they are going to be standing around for hours anyway.
Again, peacing in no way limits her participation. The only thing it stops is her attacking people, which if she has the staff, she will not be doing anyway.
Didn't realize it was a mean tactic to try to take vengeance on someone who slew you twice even though Avenger very clearly tells you not to. This rule should maybe have been reviewed for next year, not the day before it would actually happen. No one made Kelly give vengeance to someone, she did that all on her own, but now the rules from the mountain are suddenly changing. Peacing does not change her ability to take a seal, it should not be considered a problem.
Except that's not what's being referred to by 'mean tactic'. 'Mean tactic' is the part when the Vengeance-r waits right before Ascension to call down Vengeance to peace Vengeance-e, and limit his or her participation in the most important event of the Lusternian year.
Isn't that how most people use Vengeance? Big raid coming, save Vengeance for then. Being raided? Pop vengeance and thin their numbers. Greathunt coming? Peace them. Key Domoth fight due? Pop Vengeance.
It's always been used to gain an advantage when it best suits the party who was killed.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Btw, Vengeance doesn't take two kills. It takes one kill and then another hit. Just saying
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Again, peacing in no way limits her participation. The only thing it stops is her attacking people, which if she has the staff, she will not be doing anyway.
So why does it matter? Why is there such a big outcry over it? It's not like she got unpeaced and such, it's only a temporary lifting.
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I think it's pretty misleading to say this was created to benefit the entire playerbase and all seal bearers when it actually only affects one, who specifically issued about it for a specific situation, in the history of the event.
She did it to herself. All the "mean spirited" accusations don't really change that it was 100% avoidable. She just got status with ascension looming entirely voluntarily and then went behind the scenes to get the rules changed for her afterwards. The admin should, hopefully, see why other players are uncomfortable with that.
Ascension does not hinge on Kelly, so the RP explination doesn't really hold much water. There are other Seal Bearers. Several of them. Her being peaced does not result in the seals failing...it results in her not being able to hit people. It's not poor sportsmanship for people (kelly or whoever) to ask for special rules after they get punished, it's poor sportsmanship to use the system for the reason the system was created? That's just poor judgement on the admin's part. Sorry guys.
Buuut anyways, I don't think it'll affect anything and the actual change doesn't bother me. The motivation and shady dealings bother me but what can you do. Ascension will be fun either way!
I believe in this situation she went as far as to doublekill, pretty sure Silvanus has two charges on her.
Regardless, I don't believe Sealbearers are above the law, if a Seal bearer did something worth being shrubbed for, would they be overlooked because of the situation we are in?
No, they'd be told their behaviour and actions were reckless and stupid considering the delicate position and responsibility they were given.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I wonder if the person who has vengeance on Kelly wouldn't mind explaining how it happened to begin with.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Again, peacing in no way limits her participation. The only thing it stops is her attacking people, which if she has the staff, she will not be doing anyway.
So why does it matter? Why is there such a big outcry over it? It's not like she got unpeaced and such, it's only a temporary lifting.
Making a specific exception for one individual (she's the only one affected by this, at the moment) is what's causing an outcry, I think, not necessarily the affect of the peace. At least that's my position.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I believe in this situation she went as far as to doublekill, pretty sure Silvanus has two charges on her.
Regardless, I don't believe Sealbearers are above the law, if a Seal bearer did something worth being shrubbed for, would they be overlooked because of the situation we are in?
No, they'd be told their behaviour and actions were reckless and stupid considering the delicate position and responsibility they were given.
That was actually the admin position when I issued my TDF during War two years ago. Which is pretty comparable to this. I specifically asked to have my TDF delayed so I could compete on fair footing, and was told those sort of exceptions aren't made. A punishment is a punishment. Which is why this makes me uncomfortable. It's not consistent with previous positions, which subsquently makes people ask why it has spontaneously changed.
Comments
When Estarra discovered there was a possibility that the
Avenger could be used against a Sealbearer (this was issued), it was
decided that this would not only be poor sportsmanship to allow but
also considerably poor roleplaying if Avechna were to punish someone
while asking them to save existence. In this case, the most logical
move was to have Avechna suspend avenger activities this event.
There are 8 other seal holders, Avechna could have easily said a bully was unfit to stand as an ascendant. As I said before, peaced people can still claim TA in every way. Avechna does not have to ask us to save existence, we just do it, and why he is overlooking his defined duty of punishing people is questionable. We know for a fact one person will "save us", and we know it does not matter who, so this logic that Avechna "would risk hindering one of the people who could save Lusternia just because he/she "bullied" someone" is a load of crap, it bears no risk since we know at that point we will be saved.
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As I said before, the ability to call Vengeance has always been impossible during any Trial. The only change was that the effects of Vengeance (pacification) were also nullified for the duration of the Final Trial.
Well it was mostly tongue in cheek but I am curios as to why the rule has spontaneously popped up and the playerbase been made aware for the first time when a rumor has started circulating that Celest's sole seal bearer coincidentally bullied someone. I'd like to note that I was TDF'd two years ago during the war seal and when I issued it to see if I could have it delayed so I could compete, I was told the admin don't make special rules or delay punishments to accomodate self inflicted punishments. So that's...not true anymore I guess.
Being peaced by the avenger is entirely self imposed. Are you really not so vaguely accusing someone of abusing the system by using the system? Wasn't there an envoy conversation a couple days ago about admin disliking rule exceptions?
I'm just saying it's silly and the timing is interesting. It won't matter, if Kelly is the staff holder, not like she'll be fighting anyways. Just observing an interesting scenario!
Seriously, though, the pacification is being postponed, and I don't really think your strategy for the upcoming challenge hinged on Kelly's being pacified.
This is just like any other issue that leads to a consideration of a scenario that hasn't been considered before.
Oh gosh, I hadn't read the rest of the thread. It was seriously mostly a joke.
A joke that turned out to be a fact. Awkward.
Not removed, merely temporarily nullified, It resumes afterwards - essentially, Vengeance does not interfere with the Final Trial, for everyone, for ever.
My philosophy on it is this - the tactic is unfair and mean-spirited in nature, irrelevant of who is using it. Often, unfair tactics are changed after it's been misused - and so someone is forced to suffer its abuse, and then when it is changed, cries of bias often rise, claiming those who used it are now being protected - unless the ones who suffered it are able to vindictively abuse it to the great suffering of those who abused it first. Only then is it "a good fix" on all sides.
Frankly, that what undoubtedly become a bitter and contentious situation (that would have lead to a great deal of angst and crying on both sides) has been headed off and that a questionable use of the Avenger system has been closed, is a good thing - irrelevant of who "profits" from it. Certainly, were the tables reversed, the decision would be the same, only some now bothered by it would instead be praising it.
I think anyone who steps back and views it rationally and objectively would more or less come to the same conclusion. It doesn't make sense from a perspective of Roleplay, nor does it really sound "fair" from a gameplay perspective.
As seems to be ignored. It is "fair" to peace someone, it does not effect their ability to take a seal. Someone holding the staff does not enter combat, can kill keth bits without attacking them, and can still be attacked. Nothing in avechnas peacing stops you from taking a seal. My objective conclusion was this "tactic" does not stop her at all, it only prevents her from entering into combat, which only happens if she doesnt have the seal, under which case I expect Avechna to do his job.
Clearly it does not matter that the timing and rationale are beyond suspicious. This will likely not change as Eventru has never changed his mind before, and why would he ever throw kelly under the bus?
QUICK EDIT: Nor do I think Eventru could reverse this on his own. He is just the admin talking about it.
The tactic would not be viable if the targeted party had not been reckless in their actions, I think in terms of metaphors it's like a teacher punishing a student. Rather than punishing them with detention for a few days there and then, they choose to ban them from the class's end of year trip to an amusement park instead.
Avenger has always been withheld and used at a time it will inflict the most harm on the person who brought the situation to bear. That's the risk you take of going PK CAREFUL OFF, you've made your choice to act and thus the decision holds in the hands of the grieved.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Again, peacing in no way limits her participation. The only thing it stops is her attacking people, which if she has the staff, she will not be doing anyway.
It's always been used to gain an advantage when it best suits the party who was killed.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Signature!
I think it's pretty misleading to say this was created to benefit the entire playerbase and all seal bearers when it actually only affects one, who specifically issued about it for a specific situation, in the history of the event.
She did it to herself. All the "mean spirited" accusations don't really change that it was 100% avoidable. She just got status with ascension looming entirely voluntarily and then went behind the scenes to get the rules changed for her afterwards. The admin should, hopefully, see why other players are uncomfortable with that.
Ascension does not hinge on Kelly, so the RP explination doesn't really hold much water. There are other Seal Bearers. Several of them. Her being peaced does not result in the seals failing...it results in her not being able to hit people. It's not poor sportsmanship for people (kelly or whoever) to ask for special rules after they get punished, it's poor sportsmanship to use the system for the reason the system was created? That's just poor judgement on the admin's part. Sorry guys.
Buuut anyways, I don't think it'll affect anything and the actual change doesn't bother me. The motivation and shady dealings bother me but what can you do. Ascension will be fun either way!
Regardless, I don't believe Sealbearers are above the law, if a Seal bearer did something worth being shrubbed for, would they be overlooked because of the situation we are in?
No, they'd be told their behaviour and actions were reckless and stupid considering the delicate position and responsibility they were given.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
That was actually the admin position when I issued my TDF during War two years ago. Which is pretty comparable to this. I specifically asked to have my TDF delayed so I could compete on fair footing, and was told those sort of exceptions aren't made. A punishment is a punishment. Which is why this makes me uncomfortable. It's not consistent with previous positions, which subsquently makes people ask why it has spontaneously changed.