I don't think diminishing returns is necessarily a bad thing. I just think the current implementation is both too harsh and has the threshold where it starts kicking in being too low.
Note that my numbers were when I had already got to about 125k for the day. Just past 50k, I was noticing only a handful of mobs in the same area giving me considerably less (less than 200), while most other mobs were still giving me around the same as I would have expected (about 2k). I would not have been able to even get to the 125k mark if it wasn't for this. Once I went past about 100k it became very noticeable, with most mobs having much less value than normal. From my test in the Moors, it looks like I had reached a point where it was pretty crippling.
@Estarra - if you're interested - I'd be willing to grab a handful of people from each org to put together a report/proposal on things that can be done. It'd be like that special report Shuyin did a few years back. We could limit it to simple suggestions for alternatives to maps/genies etc with the expectation that after the overhaul is all finished up and we've deleted monks and tied up the loose afflictions and factions, that we could take a serious look at more involved measures (like the kind Talan/Portius and others have suggested).
It could be a simple report now to curb glaring issues, with a more involved, more finesse report in the future to follow up.
I think the main issue I have with the aethermines is that I feel like they represent a minimum investment before you're allowed to enter the market competitively. If you can't afford a manse, the extra rooms for at least one of every aethermine that your trade can use for comms, and the (still hard to obtain) dingbats for the aethergems, then you're forced to buy comms from other people, who can and will undermine your finished production prices. And this is on top of the specific trade artifact for most trades that improves your commodity efficiency.
A cook must have access to a spatula, own a manse with at least 5 rooms, and have purchased the meat/cloth, meat/milk/leather, fruit/vegetable/rope/grain, trees/fish, and poultry/egg aethermines or he risks being undercut by someone who does if he tries to turn a profit. That's 300 credits, 300 dingbats, and at least 1m gold? (I'm at work, and can't check prices.) And you still need to buy salt, sugar, and spices from other people. Bottles, too, if you want to do tea or alcohol.
Forging needs the platinum/silver/gold, gem, and iron/coal/marble, and the meat/milk/leather, and at least 4 rooms. (and probably also wants the meat/cloth, trees/fish, and fruit/veg/rope/grain, and silk ones, for the cloth, wood, rope, and silk some designs want...) Not counting the mallet since without stats on weapons all it saves is time IIRC, this means you need 200-400 dingbats and a bunch of gold.
Jewelers probably get off the cheapest(ish) by only really needing maybe three of the mines for most of their designs, plus access to the hammer if they don't want to pay someone to cut their gems.
I'm seriously sitting here wondering how many credits Arimisia has to have accumulated over 15,000 dingbats.
How about letting designers spend gold to add nouns to possible designs. >.>
I'd spend a few million gold just to be able to design berets, torcs, bowls, diadems, headdresses and the like.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
How about letting designers spend gold to add nouns to possible designs. >.>
I'd spend a few million gold just to be able to design berets, torcs, bowls, diadems, headdresses and the like.
Pretty sure headdress is a noun under the headpiece design. I've got one in my design book that's a headdress, at least.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
How about letting designers spend gold to add nouns to possible designs. >.>
I'd spend a few million gold just to be able to design berets, torcs, bowls, diadems, headdresses and the like.
I get the impression that would be more complicated than we think and potentially add bloat codewise to the game. Good news: headdress designs exist in tailoring!
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
What we need is a permanent version of the wayfaire, with games you can play for gold to win rare items. Maybe more villages need a sellable mount! BRING BACK WOMBAT MOUNTS!!!
I KNEW THERE WERE WOMBAT MOUNTS ONE DAY! When I came back I wanted to buy a wombat and everyone thought I was crazy!
How about letting designers spend gold to add nouns to possible designs. >.>
I'd spend a few million gold just to be able to design berets, torcs, bowls, diadems, headdresses and the like.
I get the impression that would be more complicated than we think and potentially add bloat codewise to the game. Good news: headdress designs exist in tailoring!
I'm sure it is, but considering the Charites -years ago- said that they'd be doing that, took ideas for -one trade-, resulting in fascinators, of which there...how many public designs?
We could use a few more nouns. Just saying. Artisans have been asking for more wallfeature nouns for a decade irl.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
@Estarra - if you're interested - I'd be willing to grab a handful of people from each org to put together a report/proposal on things that can be done. It'd be like that special report Shuyin did a few years back. We could limit it to simple suggestions for alternatives to maps/genies etc with the expectation that after the overhaul is all finished up and we've deleted monks and tied up the loose afflictions and factions, that we could take a serious look at more involved measures (like the kind Talan/Portius and others have suggested).
It could be a simple report now to curb glaring issues, with a more involved, more finesse report in the future to follow up.
I'm sure people would be willing to contribute.
Sure! Synkarin is officially in charge of the Gold Report!
Gold costs on org discretionaries is good, but also keep in mind that there's a report out there somewhere that's nerfing them quite a bit. I can't find it in submitted or accepted, I wonder where it went.
The best gold sink would be taking a lot of the cosmetic artifacts or one time use ones and making them also available for high amounts of gold. That or doing some gold auctions of custom mounts and custom items.
3
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I'd rather not do auctions, since it only removes the gold from a few people. Having things available for purchase will remove more gold from more people.
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You're best off removing it from a few people. The immediate plan should be to just pull gold out of the market so that there is less floating around. Pulling it from the highest rollers is the best place to take it from because it narrows the gap between the amount of gold new players have and the gold old players have. The 2nd step is to then balance out gold coming in and gold coming out. Best way to do that is more permanent gold sinks that provide something useful but are not a necessity, making them a necessity just breeds hostility. So does limiting the existing gold coming in. Future gold rewards should be balanced with the inflation in mind but nerfing the existing ones just punish people.
There is no simple solution with a game that has a player-driven economy.
-Gold sink vendors (Vendor that sells tonics, lips, and other non-pvp/utility artifacts, or similar things)
-Cosmetic manse artifacts for gold
-Auctions to put a dent in the larger concentrations of gold
-New form of gambling? Keno, poker, pachinko, or some such where you bet with gold and earn unique things. (Hate to say it, curios?)
-Alternative rewards for map/wheel with no gold value
-Alternative to gold from rubbing curios
-Reduced gold reward on certain mobs (Areas with 50+ mobs shouldn't drop 2-3k each)
Those would be a logical start, but it would be a slow process with the current amount of gold sitting around. Punishing new or non-rich players with diminishing returns for honest effort is a very small measure that would likely do more harm than good. Artifacts and curios should still be useful, as people paid good money for them, but I'm certain there are alternatives that can be put in place with no gold value. Temporary buffs, maybe? Perhaps even consumables that can only be used by the person who earned them.
I occasionally like to pretend that I'm replanting all of these herbs to attract bees, and might one day form an alliance with the bees and take over the Basin. Then we could have a wonderful tea party with plenty of honey and the best tea blends.
Yeah, Kurut has the right of it. @Estarra Do you guys have any rough numbers on how much gold is being put into the economy? You need to start planning gold sinks that pull gold out based on those numbers.
What about making some current credit/dingbat only items also available for a super high gold price, even for a limited time? Buying them with credits would still be the easier, cheaper, desirable way, but for people with obscene amounts of gold, who are probably the ones buying lots of credits with RL money anyway, it could give them a reason to part with the gold they don't need anyway.
I like this idea. Even if it was just one or two artifacts. (Aethership stuff maybe? That's always been a huge goldsink to begin with. Maybe offer the older aetherspace arties for gold.)
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What if the manse mines could be attached to thematically appropriate villages and maintained flavour-wise by existing denizens? Could make village mines buyable with gold and then maintained by paying the village extra. The non-artifact mines would vanish when village goes up for revolt. Artifact version would reset to person (or org, deed it somehow?) instead of vanishing, but have same gold maintenance cost. Then have village limit on number of mines that it can be expanded in this manner with.
Main gold sink is the maintenance cost. Players could affect mine output indirectly with the enslavement/freeing of slave quests. So the gold given's a purse to cover x denizens working y mines for z IG days, but if the denizens get taken, gold sits in purse until denizens return. (Or some of the gold is used to reward the player for recovering the denizens, at this point I'm role-play spinning it.)
Yeah, Kurut has the right of it. @Estarra Do you guys have any rough numbers on how much gold is being put into the economy? You need to start planning gold sinks that pull gold out based on those numbers.
Pretend the number is 100 gold every 24 hours for all players and that fractional gold exists. What would you suggest the gold sink costs should be?
Shouldn't the answer be pretty close to 100? I mean, even if the newbie who bashes up 1k gold to buy a sword doesn't spend that 1k on a gold sink, the person he gives that 1k gold should... Sure, there will always be those who stockpile gold for later, but in the end, all gold should either A) disappear through gold sinks, or "disappear" through inactivity. Right now, it doesn't, really.
That said, gold sinks should always be optional perks. You should be able to stockpile gold to use them on said perks at a later date, such as Ascension or seal challenges etc.
I was thinking personally that you want it to be 50% at minimum going back out relatively quickly, with the rest of it being stockpiled for the future (org coffers, hoarders, saving for future need). We are nowhere near even that drain of gold leaving the system completely right now.
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Solves two problems.
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Vive l'apostrophe!
Note that my numbers were when I had already got to about 125k for the day. Just past 50k, I was noticing only a handful of mobs in the same area giving me considerably less (less than 200), while most other mobs were still giving me around the same as I would have expected (about 2k). I would not have been able to even get to the 125k mark if it wasn't for this. Once I went past about 100k it became very noticeable, with most mobs having much less value than normal. From my test in the Moors, it looks like I had reached a point where it was pretty crippling.
It could be a simple report now to curb glaring issues, with a more involved, more finesse report in the future to follow up.
I'm sure people would be willing to contribute.
A cook must have access to a spatula, own a manse with at least 5 rooms, and have purchased the meat/cloth, meat/milk/leather, fruit/vegetable/rope/grain, trees/fish, and poultry/egg aethermines or he risks being undercut by someone who does if he tries to turn a profit. That's 300 credits, 300 dingbats, and at least 1m gold? (I'm at work, and can't check prices.) And you still need to buy salt, sugar, and spices from other people. Bottles, too, if you want to do tea or alcohol.
Forging needs the platinum/silver/gold, gem, and iron/coal/marble, and the meat/milk/leather, and at least 4 rooms. (and probably also wants the meat/cloth, trees/fish, and fruit/veg/rope/grain, and silk ones, for the cloth, wood, rope, and silk some designs want...) Not counting the mallet since without stats on weapons all it saves is time IIRC, this means you need 200-400 dingbats and a bunch of gold.
Jewelers probably get off the cheapest(ish) by only really needing maybe three of the mines for most of their designs, plus access to the hammer if they don't want to pay someone to cut their gems.
I'm seriously sitting here wondering how many credits Arimisia has to have accumulated over 15,000 dingbats.
Vive l'apostrophe!
I'd spend a few million gold just to be able to design berets, torcs, bowls, diadems, headdresses and the like.
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We could use a few more nouns. Just saying. Artisans have been asking for more wallfeature nouns for a decade irl.
-Gold sink vendors (Vendor that sells tonics, lips, and other non-pvp/utility artifacts, or similar things)
-Cosmetic manse artifacts for gold
-Auctions to put a dent in the larger concentrations of gold
-New form of gambling? Keno, poker, pachinko, or some such where you bet with gold and earn unique things. (Hate to say it, curios?)
-Alternative rewards for map/wheel with no gold value
-Alternative to gold from rubbing curios
-Reduced gold reward on certain mobs (Areas with 50+ mobs shouldn't drop 2-3k each)
Those would be a logical start, but it would be a slow process with the current amount of gold sitting around. Punishing new or non-rich players with diminishing returns for honest effort is a very small measure that would likely do more harm than good. Artifacts and curios should still be useful, as people paid good money for them, but I'm certain there are alternatives that can be put in place with no gold value. Temporary buffs, maybe? Perhaps even consumables that can only be used by the person who earned them.
Main gold sink is the maintenance cost. Players could affect mine output indirectly with the enslavement/freeing of slave quests. So the gold given's a purse to cover x denizens working y mines for z IG days, but if the denizens get taken, gold sits in purse until denizens return. (Or some of the gold is used to reward the player for recovering the denizens, at this point I'm role-play spinning it.)
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That said, gold sinks should always be optional perks. You should be able to stockpile gold to use them on said perks at a later date, such as Ascension or seal challenges etc.