I'm sorry, but I can't muster any empathy for the arguments that state that because the mechanical restriction would affect everyone, and not just true newbies, it should not be put into place.
If it protects true newbies, but must by a side-effect force experienced players to use their reincarnation to play their RP choice, then so be it. Which is your priority? Protecting people who do not and cannot know that the choice they are going to make is a terrible one, or protecting experienced players' "right" to save their reincarnation for something they may or may not want to do in the future? My priority is on the former, even if it means stepping on, reining back and compromising the "liberty" of experienced RPers to choose what they want without using their reincarnation.
I'm sorry, but I can't muster any empathy for the arguments that state that because the mechanical restriction would affect everyone, and not just true newbies, it should not be put into place.
If it protects true newbies, but must by a side-effect force experienced players to use their reincarnation to play their RP choice, then so be it. Which is your priority? Protecting people who do not and cannot know that the choice they are going to make is a terrible one, or protecting experienced players' "right" to save their reincarnation for something they may or may not want to do in the future? My priority is on the former, even if it means stepping on, reining back and compromising the "liberty" of experienced RPers to choose what they want without using their reincarnation.
Why does it have to be one or the other, when by the addition of a fourth category, we can protect both?
My very first character ever in a mud was one that was a terrible race/choice combination, and I loved it.
Not every true newbie cares about the mechanics. Obviously, we want to help them make the best choice possible for them, especially since there -are- true newbies that care about it, but outright preventing them from picking a race because it appeals to them, when there is nothing in their city or commune or guild that says they cannot be that race is a bad idea.
ESPECIALLY since newbiew are able to quit guilds when they realize that a guild is not right for them. I have definitely seen newbies move entire orgs because after they finished the intro, they realised that a particular city/commune/guild was not right for them. If they were forced to pick a race they didn't want to, and then used their reincarnation, and moved somewhere else where they realized they want to be a different race (for whatever reason) they've now been mechanically forced, by you, to have to pay credits to change races, when that's the whole point of the reincarnation. Not to use it to pick the race you wanted in the first place, but to change your mind if you realize that you don't like it/it doesn't work for you.
A whisper from the trees and a frosty presence tells you, secretly, "But you are strong, little
flower, and wise." The voice shifts and expands, becoming more real. "And everything you just said
in the ritual made me feel safer. You should, too."
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
ESPECIALLY since
newbiew are able to quit guilds when they realize that a guild is not
right for them. I have definitely seen newbies move entire orgs because
after they finished the intro, they realised that a particular
city/commune/guild was not right for them. If they were forced to pick a
race they didn't want to, and then used their reincarnation, and moved
somewhere else where they realized they want to be a different race (for
whatever reason) they've now been mechanically forced, by you, to have
to pay credits to change races, when that's the whole point of the reincarnation.
Not to use it to pick the race you wanted in the first place, but to
change your mind if you realize that you don't like it/it doesn't work
for you.
Your last paragraph is a mess of what-ifs. What if a true newbie decided to pick a race he liked but that was mechanically bad, and then he decided he wanted to reincarnate to a mechanically better race and then wanted to change guilds and then wanted to reincarnate again? Now he has to pay credits all because the system, which could have prevented them from picking a bad choice from the very start, failed to protect them from their own bad choices. How about that for an argument? Sounds ridiculous, right? Yeah, that's what yours sounded like to me too.
I'm not interested in convoluted what-if this, what-if thats. The system currently doesn't have a fourth category. It doesn't have built in commentary system. It doesn't have a magical girl flying about on a broom telling the newbies what's good and what's bad. The system, however, does have the potential to take the ability to make a horrible choice out of a newbie's hands. In light of the current circumstances then, use it to do exactly that, I say. If you want to have a system that can protect a newbie from doing something he will very likely regret, but then not use the system to actually do so, then we might as well not have bothered to make the system in the first place.
I'm sorry, but I can't muster any empathy for the arguments that state that because the mechanical restriction would affect everyone, and not just true newbies, it should not be put into place.
If it protects true newbies, but must by a side-effect force experienced players to use their reincarnation to play their RP choice, then so be it. Which is your priority? Protecting people who do not and cannot know that the choice they are going to make is a terrible one, or protecting experienced players' "right" to save their reincarnation for something they may or may not want to do in the future? My priority is on the former, even if it means stepping on, reining back and compromising the "liberty" of experienced RPers to choose what they want without using their reincarnation.
Yes, we should provide newbies with the ability to make informed decisions that will enhance their ability to enjoy playing lusternia. This is very important.
But claiming that we either do it this way, at the expense of more experienced players, and people more interested in roleplay than anything else, or else we are not protecting newbies seems to be to be a false dichotomy. I think almost all of the proposed modifications protect newbies, yet at the same time they make it possible for more experienced players to pursue roles they are interested in.
Of course, perhaps none of these modifications are possible to implement. Perhaps this structure is getting handed down, and there isn't much that can be done to tweak it. In which case it would be nice if an Admin could possibly tell us that no changes are possible, so that we can stop wasting time arguing about how changes would make it better, and focus on discussing what to do with the implementation.
In this case, it probably would be good to try to come to some sort of consensus on whether guilds are going to ban races for mechanical reasons. (Out of curiosity, how does this affect joining a guild as a banned race as a non newbie?) I realise that some races really and truly are not viable for certain classes. But my concern is that races will get tossed into restricted categories when they're simply worse than average, which a newbie wouldn't even necessarily notice. (Also, I realise Viscanti have issues, but having a Magnagoran guild restrict viscanti just seems... wrong.)
I would personally not enjoy a system that would put an undue inhibitor on me. As a newbie, I did genuinely consider choosing to play a Furrikin Paladin. Putting a big "no" on that option because clearly I'm not intelligent enough to choose what's good for me reeks of arrogance. The choice should be mine to choose what I want to play. Not have those choices limited by others who think they know my desires better than me.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
I'm also coming at this from the perspective that, given the way this change was announced, it was intended to prevent the hazing that accompanies being a roleplay undesirable race. When you're still learning the game, most races are manageable, it's not until much later levels when people figure out what they really enjoy that they tend to want to optimize mechanically.
ESPECIALLY since
newbiew are able to quit guilds when they realize that a guild is not
right for them. I have definitely seen newbies move entire orgs because
after they finished the intro, they realised that a particular
city/commune/guild was not right for them. If they were forced to pick a
race they didn't want to, and then used their reincarnation, and moved
somewhere else where they realized they want to be a different race (for
whatever reason) they've now been mechanically forced, by you, to have
to pay credits to change races, when that's the whole point of the reincarnation.
Not to use it to pick the race you wanted in the first place, but to
change your mind if you realize that you don't like it/it doesn't work
for you.
Your last paragraph is a mess of what-ifs. What if a true newbie decided to pick a race he liked but that was mechanically bad, and then he decided he wanted to reincarnate to a mechanically better race and then wanted to change guilds and then wanted to reincarnate again? Now he has to pay credits all because the system, which could have prevented them from picking a bad choice from the very start, failed to protect them from their own bad choices. How about that for an argument? Sounds ridiculous, right? Yeah, that's what yours sounded like to me too.
I'm not interested in convoluted what-if this, what-if thats. The system currently doesn't have a fourth category. It doesn't have built in commentary system. It doesn't have a magical girl flying about on a broom telling the newbies what's good and what's bad. The system, however, does have the potential to take the ability to make a horrible choice out of a newbie's hands. In light of the current circumstances then, use it to do exactly that, I say. If you want to have a system that can protect a newbie from doing something he will very likely regret, but then not use the system to actually do so, then we might as well not have bothered to make the system in the first place.
it's not what ifs, I am speaking from experience.
I -have- seen newbies quit guilds
I -have- seen newbies out the portal forced to reincarnate right away (illithoid in Seren being a recent example)
restricting illithoid makes sense because -no- guild in Seren will allow them.
I -have- seen newbies, who reincarnated right away, quit guilds/communes and move elsewhere where a different race would be better for them, and be unable to because they had to use their reincarnation already.
I have seen these things over many many years in this game.
By restricting races based on what somebody has deemed to be "unfavorable," you are creating if not more opportunities for similar situations, then my guess would be it would stay around the same.
Which, I might add, is pretty uncommon in the first place!
(both instances, newbie picking RP incompatible race, and newbie picking mechanically incompatible race)
A whisper from the trees and a frosty presence tells you, secretly, "But you are strong, little
flower, and wise." The voice shifts and expands, becoming more real. "And everything you just said
in the ritual made me feel safer. You should, too."
I personally view "encouraged" as good, neutral as "discouraged," and restricted as "banned". I feel like that is the intended design. I have nothing against expanding it; that would actually be great if it was made a bit more descriptive.
Unfortunately right now all we have are these three categories (which is what Lerad is getting at). I just disagree a bit; I feel that most newbies will be smart enough to see an encouraged list and conclude that races not on that list won't work so well.
Since a newbie cannot select from the restricted list, they only have two sets: encouraged and neutral. If I was a newbie I would focus on the encouraged races, which is the point.
As such, there is no need to forcefully restrict them from making their choice. It should be viewed as a way to give guidance before they really know what is going on, and in its current state it can accomplish that.
I'm not sure if anyone is misunderstanding and thinking that I am saying that all the races put into the restricted (mechanically not choosable) section should be only mechanically weak ones for the guild. RP incompatible races can and should also go in alongside mechanically weak ones. If it's a bad choice that the newbie will regret, it should go in there.
Look at it this way. A newbie can regret their choices in a few ways:
1) I chose a race that is shunned in my org. Now I have to reincarnate, change org or live with being looked down upon RPly. 2) I chose a race that is mechanically difficult to play with my skills. Now I have to reincarnate, change guilds, or live with (heavily?) disadvantageous stats for my abilities. 3) I chose a race that is not my first choice race. Now I have to reincarnate, or... I can continue playing my second choice race.
By taking races that are both RPly not acceptable in the org as well as races that are mechanically horrible, and preventing newbies from choosing them at all, you have the first two scenarios pretty much locked out. What's left is the third, and I'm pretty happy with making every single newbie suffer the regret from that third instead of having even one suffer the regret from the first or second.
As for being arrogant and "knowing better" than what the newbie wants? I'm proud to say that yes, I have every confidence in my ability as an experienced player to decide what race is better or worse for a newbie's experience mechanically. If that's arrogance and putting you off, fine by me. I'm not really running for a pageant here.
I honestly have yet to meet a newbie who cares in the slightest about min/maxing. That's something that comes later, when they get more used to the mechanics. If the time comes that they decide they want a more ideal race, well, that's what their free reincarnation has always been there for. Nor am I convinced that lower-level bashing is significantly different with a good or bad race to merit taking that decision away from them.
As this change is currently implemented, they have two choices, recommended or not. It is already implied if they are choosing something from the 'not recommended' category, that for some reason or another, this racial choice is less than ideal.
I'm using the forbidden category only for those races that will result in us forcing them to waste that first reincarnation anyway, no matter what. I see no reason to make it more restrictive than that.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Question for the admin, how hard would it be to allow unlimited RACE SELECT <blah> until level 20-30?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
You should not be forced by mechanics to not be able to pick a race simply because it's not optimal for the guild.
No one has said optimal races only, otherwise every Knight guild would pigeonhole you into Aslaran.
You're confusing "optimal" with "races that aren't utterly terrible" there's a massive difference.
If you've been reading, you'll see there's been talk of putting mechanically bad races in the restricted category, which is what @Parua (and I, and everyone asking for a 'discouraged' category and the ability to make brief notes on each race) objects to.
I have been reading, and my point stands, you're confusing "not optimal" with "terrible".
Example: Taurian are not optimal for warriors, you'd be pushed to say any race but Aslaran is, but they're not mechanically terrible.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The problem is there's no hard line where something becomes "terrible" over "not optimal." Frankly, a lucidian serenguard (I'm stealing examples from Hiriako's thing) is still going to be able to bash just fine for quite a while. They may not be able to pull off a lot of the pvp strategies well, but if they someday decide they care about that, they can reincarnate. If they already know they care about that, they'll pick one of the encouraged races. I find it highly unlikely that a newcomer in pre80 bashing is going to be significantly less frustrated by bashing as a dracnari than they are as a lucidian. It makes no sense to me, therefore, to tell someone new to the game "You can be a big lizard warrior in Serenwilde, but not a big rock warrior."
Will you be a great serenguard pvper as a lucidian serenguard? Presumably not. Can you still be useful in territory defense, level, and do other things? Sure. Will, as a newbie, you be likely to repent of your choice forevermore and qq in frustration? Probably not. You can reincarnate, since you know that changing races is possible.
I think it's a good thing that newbies can no longer end up in a situation where they are immediately required to use their free reincarnation to stay in the guild. I don't think it's a good idea to use this tool to restrict choices any more than is necessary.
Let's say I want to start as a restricted race due to RP. With the current system, that'd mean I would have to pick another race and then reincarnate, blowing my free reincarnate on that. This seems unfair to those who favour roleplay above all else, and I find that to be conflicting with the game's ideals. Because these players may want to appear as always having been the same race, but down the line they will have saved up for a race hat and reincarnate into a mechanically superb race. For this they would be forced to buy a dagger. All because they put RP first and foremost. Can we please consider any option that would not make this scenario real?
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Again, you're taking PvP and PvE and thinking I'm focusing on one or the other.
The above example I gave applies to both specs, there is one "optimal" race, and then there are a fair number of perfectly fine races. Then there are races where you will find you hit like a wet paper bag, and you don't even have the joys of influencing to back you up in a couple of scenarios.
See here's the thing, people are saying "We shouldn't be dictating choice to them, they may enjoy the RP of a #poorclassracecombine" What if they want to enjoy the RP of being a sub culture race that is looked down upon and sneered, you're dictating choice there, and it's perfectly fine for them to blow that free reincarnate if they really want to do it, how's that any different? You can't for example block Kephera (when actually they aren't illegal in Glom for example, just highly restricted and have additional rules) for the guise of RP, and then crticise people who block races so that NPE isn't going to be skewed when they go "This sucks, things take too long to kill/influence or I die too easily."
Will a fourth category fix things? Absolutely yes it would, that being said I do prefer Shaddus' idea about race flexing up till 30, you can forget lessons and class swap in that period, why not race too? Give players the right to experiment and play.
Also whoever said new players never come in caring about min/maxing, that's not true. There are players who naturally min/max as their game style, and while they may be new to Lusternia, this isn't their first game, there are people who pick and plot from the offset. Sure they aren't the status quo, but to say they don't exist is a false statement. What is more common isn't people who come in who are min/maxers, but people who come in and want to play the game, who are unaware of the actual game's mechanics, but want to be able to play something that provides them with the toolset to get to grips with the game. Throw in Kelly's suggestion of annotations to reasons why classes are blocked (or if the fourth option of not-encouraged comes in, that) so that not only do they see certain classes are poor, but they get to understand why.
We can all live in this happy hypothetical scenario that as you log in there are people there to take you by the hand Willy Wonka style into this magical new player experience and answer all your questions, or we can accept the realism that there really are times you log in and there's people who might be able to help your college quests, and they're likely other guilds who don't know the first damn thing about what your class does and what's good to pick right out of the bat. Sure if we had a massive population 24/7 this wouldn't be necessary, but we don't, global game and people are scattered across timezones.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
It's different because as a new player to a game, it's significantly more daunting to be faced with a ton of of people being dismissive/agressive towards you in character for something not necessarily your fault than it is to take a longer time to kill something. If you come out as a banned race, you're immediately told that you have to change. This can be extremely unwelcoming and offputting to people in a way that gradually finding out that they don't hit very hard isn't.
If new people want to min/max, they will do so. And in doing so, they will do their research and pick a race off the encouraged list. Even I was familiar with the idea that if I want a bard or a mage I probably want to have higher charisma/int, and if I want a warrior or a monk, I probably want higher strength/dexish.
It's different because it is explicitly impossible to play as a viscanti or illithoid moondancer long term because of guild rules. It would be mechanically hard to play as certain other things, but it's not impossible. Are there any races that are so utterly terrible for a class that they are entirely unplayable? I could maybe see putting the most extreme cases in restricted. But I don't think straight up banning 8 out of the 20 races is wise.
I think it's better to let someone run with "oh hey, this guild concept looks cool, and oh I can be a cow person, sure!" and get drawn into lusternia, than to go "no, you can't try that right now. It's not that we hate cow people, just, you're not allowed to be one." I'd find this confusing, and disappointing. Admittedly, I did a ton of reading before jumping into the game, and I know some people want to jump straight in.
Essentially, it's easy to draw a line between these races are banned for rp reasons, and these races aren't as great. I don't see how it's easy to draw a line between these races are terrible, and these ones just aren't optimal for this guild. And because of that, I'd rather stick with the clear line, that avoids hazing, than semi arbitrarily banning over a third of the possible races.
1
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
The Admin should just add the fourth category already and end this debate. It is the easiest, most logical, and best solution to the problem.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
It's because Taurians are awful. Not enough strength or dex to make a really convincing warrior, not enough intelligence or charisma to be good at any other role (including influencing), bad racial perks/nerfs. You're generally better off being human, though you'll end up with slightly lower con. It's... 'doable', but it's far from a great choice.
I would still really just prefer if this was un-implemented. Newbies get a free reincarnation as it is, we should instead be urging them to discuss their choice with an experienced guild member (albeit more ICly appropriate), and if need be, nudging them towards a more sound choice based on their needs and wants as a player with that free reincarnation. I never saw this system go awry before, and have had more than my fair share of "Well if you wanted X, you could do Y" discussions with my own newbies. Not sure why it had to change!
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
Taurian are pretty solid solo bashers as Warriors, 15 str going to 17 with Enrage, +16 con, cutting resist and a health regen bonus makes them pretty great for levelling up.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I would still really just prefer if this was un-implemented. Newbies get a free reincarnation as it is, we should instead be urging them to discuss their choice with an experienced guild member (albeit more ICly appropriate), and if need be, nudging them towards a more sound choice based on their needs and wants as a player with that free reincarnation. I never saw this system go awry before, and have had more than my fair share of "Well if you wanted X, you could do Y" discussions with my own newbies. Not sure why it had to change!
I have to disagree. I've seen countless novices turn up in Magnagora as an elfen (most common), because they have no idea that such a race is the scum of the basin in our eyes. They probably think cool, evil city, I'll make a dark elf....but it doesn't work that way. And about 98% of them race change when they realise, to avoid the IC racism. It's an unnecessary use of their free reincarnation, that they could probably use better if they get into pvp down the line and want to go a more optimal race, or even if they ever org hop and want to be more appropriate. It seems unfair to use it because of ignorance.
I don't think this is as big a deal as people seem to be making it out to be. It's to help true newbies not make bad decisions out of pure ignorance, and guides them towards what is more thematically appropriate for their guild. Oldbies who want the rp challenge can still take that option. It doesn't hurt the established playerbase, it helps the new players we want, to stick around.
I personally think restricted races should be purely those that are ICly going to cause drama (ie viscanti in Celest), not just races that aren't ideal for pvp. Keep them in neutral (or discouraged, that really would be a great option in there).
1. We really do need the discouraged section so that we don't entirely prohibit newbies from making awful decisions on race. If they are true newbies, then they won't so much as be looking to pick a specific race for RP reasons, but probably picked it due to being it in another game.
2. Why can't novies Reincarnate as much as they want? Would it be hard to code something to where up to circle 30, a novie can reincarnate as many times as they want, but after 30 they only get one chance?
I find myself strongly agreeing with Lerad's perspective for a variety of reasons. I'll spare TL:DR ya with an elaborated response thought... other than the anecdotal evidence that I've worked with many frustrated novices who needed to reincarnate after they realized a certain race was a poor decision. The "I'll RP through this lesser race" and/or find ways to make combat happen (i.e. Thul) are fewer and far between.
I'll fully utilize my CGHELP and GHELP files to best inform my player base as to the RP and mechanic potentials and pitfalls of each race. I love the simplicity of three tiers, and don't find four tiers absolutely necessary. Then again I don't find the hard coded restrictions a necessary, secondary prevention outside of the label of "restricted" as synonymous with "poor choice".
All that being said, I'm mediating my own personal experience with novice as the longstanding GA, the "mechanical" needs stated by my GC, and the feelings of the forum/guild at large. Here is the second draft of GUILD RACES:
EDIT lucidian are full of mechanic min/max fail, but are ripe for RP considering the history of the Old Ones presented through Scorpion Caverns. Lucidian should be available right alongside dracnari for that very reason.
EDIT tae'dae is a horrible choice. Thul made it work through outlier strength when oothai could gain momentum and wasn't mitigated by discipline breathing asphyx DMP reduction. Tae was added back in memory of Thul.
I wish @Delphas used the forums so we could ask him why he set orclach and taurian as encouraged nihilist races
I know why he did it, because Fain loves orclach and taurians. That doesn't mean we need to encourage them to be nihilists
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
@Shaddus: Message him, possibly point him at this thread. He is really big on RP, a bit too much at times, but he is also a very reasonable guy OOC.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order. Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
Comments
If it protects true newbies, but must by a side-effect force experienced players to use their reincarnation to play their RP choice, then so be it. Which is your priority? Protecting people who do not and cannot know that the choice they are going to make is a terrible one, or protecting experienced players' "right" to save their reincarnation for something they may or may not want to do in the future? My priority is on the former, even if it means stepping on, reining back and compromising the "liberty" of experienced RPers to choose what they want without using their reincarnation.
mugwump orclach taurian viscanti
Your last paragraph is a mess of what-ifs. What if a true newbie decided to pick a race he liked but that was mechanically bad, and then he decided he wanted to reincarnate to a mechanically better race and then wanted to change guilds and then wanted to reincarnate again? Now he has to pay credits all because the system, which could have prevented them from picking a bad choice from the very start, failed to protect them from their own bad choices. How about that for an argument? Sounds ridiculous, right? Yeah, that's what yours sounded like to me too.
I'm not interested in convoluted what-if this, what-if thats. The system currently doesn't have a fourth category. It doesn't have built in commentary system. It doesn't have a magical girl flying about on a broom telling the newbies what's good and what's bad. The system, however, does have the potential to take the ability to make a horrible choice out of a newbie's hands. In light of the current circumstances then, use it to do exactly that, I say. If you want to have a system that can protect a newbie from doing something he will very likely regret, but then not use the system to actually do so, then we might as well not have bothered to make the system in the first place.
But claiming that we either do it this way, at the expense of more experienced players, and people more interested in roleplay than anything else, or else we are not protecting newbies seems to be to be a false dichotomy. I think almost all of the proposed modifications protect newbies, yet at the same time they make it possible for more experienced players to pursue roles they are interested in.
Of course, perhaps none of these modifications are possible to implement. Perhaps this structure is getting handed down, and there isn't much that can be done to tweak it. In which case it would be nice if an Admin could possibly tell us that no changes are possible, so that we can stop wasting time arguing about how changes would make it better, and focus on discussing what to do with the implementation.
In this case, it probably would be good to try to come to some sort of consensus on whether guilds are going to ban races for mechanical reasons. (Out of curiosity, how does this affect joining a guild as a banned race as a non newbie?) I realise that some races really and truly are not viable for certain classes. But my concern is that races will get tossed into restricted categories when they're simply worse than average, which a newbie wouldn't even necessarily notice. (Also, I realise Viscanti have issues, but having a Magnagoran guild restrict viscanti just seems... wrong.)
Unfortunately right now all we have are these three categories (which is what Lerad is getting at). I just disagree a bit; I feel that most newbies will be smart enough to see an encouraged list and conclude that races not on that list won't work so well.
Since a newbie cannot select from the restricted list, they only have two sets: encouraged and neutral. If I was a newbie I would focus on the encouraged races, which is the point.
As such, there is no need to forcefully restrict them from making their choice. It should be viewed as a way to give guidance before they really know what is going on, and in its current state it can accomplish that.
Look at it this way. A newbie can regret their choices in a few ways:
1) I chose a race that is shunned in my org. Now I have to reincarnate, change org or live with being looked down upon RPly.
2) I chose a race that is mechanically difficult to play with my skills. Now I have to reincarnate, change guilds, or live with (heavily?) disadvantageous stats for my abilities.
3) I chose a race that is not my first choice race. Now I have to reincarnate, or... I can continue playing my second choice race.
By taking races that are both RPly not acceptable in the org as well as races that are mechanically horrible, and preventing newbies from choosing them at all, you have the first two scenarios pretty much locked out. What's left is the third, and I'm pretty happy with making every single newbie suffer the regret from that third instead of having even one suffer the regret from the first or second.
As for being arrogant and "knowing better" than what the newbie wants? I'm proud to say that yes, I have every confidence in my ability as an experienced player to decide what race is better or worse for a newbie's experience mechanically. If that's arrogance and putting you off, fine by me. I'm not really running for a pageant here.
Example: Taurian are not optimal for warriors, you'd be pushed to say any race but Aslaran is, but they're not mechanically terrible.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Will you be a great serenguard pvper as a lucidian serenguard? Presumably not. Can you still be useful in territory defense, level, and do other things? Sure. Will, as a newbie, you be likely to repent of your choice forevermore and qq in frustration? Probably not. You can reincarnate, since you know that changing races is possible.
I think it's a good thing that newbies can no longer end up in a situation where they are immediately required to use their free reincarnation to stay in the guild. I don't think it's a good idea to use this tool to restrict choices any more than is necessary.
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The above example I gave applies to both specs, there is one "optimal" race, and then there are a fair number of perfectly fine races. Then there are races where you will find you hit like a wet paper bag, and you don't even have the joys of influencing to back you up in a couple of scenarios.
See here's the thing, people are saying "We shouldn't be dictating choice to them, they may enjoy the RP of a #poorclassracecombine" What if they want to enjoy the RP of being a sub culture race that is looked down upon and sneered, you're dictating choice there, and it's perfectly fine for them to blow that free reincarnate if they really want to do it, how's that any different? You can't for example block Kephera (when actually they aren't illegal in Glom for example, just highly restricted and have additional rules) for the guise of RP, and then crticise people who block races so that NPE isn't going to be skewed when they go "This sucks, things take too long to kill/influence or I die too easily."
Will a fourth category fix things? Absolutely yes it would, that being said I do prefer Shaddus' idea about race flexing up till 30, you can forget lessons and class swap in that period, why not race too? Give players the right to experiment and play.
Also whoever said new players never come in caring about min/maxing, that's not true. There are players who naturally min/max as their game style, and while they may be new to Lusternia, this isn't their first game, there are people who pick and plot from the offset. Sure they aren't the status quo, but to say they don't exist is a false statement. What is more common isn't people who come in who are min/maxers, but people who come in and want to play the game, who are unaware of the actual game's mechanics, but want to be able to play something that provides them with the toolset to get to grips with the game. Throw in Kelly's suggestion of annotations to reasons why classes are blocked (or if the fourth option of not-encouraged comes in, that) so that not only do they see certain classes are poor, but they get to understand why.
We can all live in this happy hypothetical scenario that as you log in there are people there to take you by the hand Willy Wonka style into this magical new player experience and answer all your questions, or we can accept the realism that there really are times you log in and there's people who might be able to help your college quests, and they're likely other guilds who don't know the first damn thing about what your class does and what's good to pick right out of the bat. Sure if we had a massive population 24/7 this wouldn't be necessary, but we don't, global game and people are scattered across timezones.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
If new people want to min/max, they will do so. And in doing so, they will do their research and pick a race off the encouraged list. Even I was familiar with the idea that if I want a bard or a mage I probably want to have higher charisma/int, and if I want a warrior or a monk, I probably want higher strength/dexish.
It's different because it is explicitly impossible to play as a viscanti or illithoid moondancer long term because of guild rules. It would be mechanically hard to play as certain other things, but it's not impossible. Are there any races that are so utterly terrible for a class that they are entirely unplayable? I could maybe see putting the most extreme cases in restricted. But I don't think straight up banning 8 out of the 20 races is wise.
I think it's better to let someone run with "oh hey, this guild concept looks cool, and oh I can be a cow person, sure!" and get drawn into lusternia, than to go "no, you can't try that right now. It's not that we hate cow people, just, you're not allowed to be one." I'd find this confusing, and disappointing. Admittedly, I did a ton of reading before jumping into the game, and I know some people want to jump straight in.
Essentially, it's easy to draw a line between these races are banned for rp reasons, and these races aren't as great. I don't see how it's easy to draw a line between these races are terrible, and these ones just aren't optimal for this guild. And because of that, I'd rather stick with the clear line, that avoids hazing, than semi arbitrarily banning over a third of the possible races.
--[ Recommended Races]--------------------------------------------------------
aslaran dwarf igasho krokani orclach tae'dae viscanti
--[ Neutral Races]------------------------------------------------------------
dracnari furrikin illithoid lucidian taurian
faeling human loboshigaru mugwump trill
--[ Restricted Races]---------------------------------------------------------
elfen kephera merian
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
-
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I have to disagree. I've seen countless novices turn up in Magnagora as an elfen (most common), because they have no idea that such a race is the scum of the basin in our eyes. They probably think cool, evil city, I'll make a dark elf....but it doesn't work that way. And about 98% of them race change when they realise, to avoid the IC racism. It's an unnecessary use of their free reincarnation, that they could probably use better if they get into pvp down the line and want to go a more optimal race, or even if they ever org hop and want to be more appropriate. It seems unfair to use it because of ignorance.
I don't think this is as big a deal as people seem to be making it out to be. It's to help true newbies not make bad decisions out of pure ignorance, and guides them towards what is more thematically appropriate for their guild. Oldbies who want the rp challenge can still take that option. It doesn't hurt the established playerbase, it helps the new players we want, to stick around.
I personally think restricted races should be purely those that are ICly going to cause drama (ie viscanti in Celest), not just races that aren't ideal for pvp. Keep them in neutral (or discouraged, that really would be a great option in there).
1. We really do need the discouraged section so that we don't entirely prohibit newbies from making awful decisions on race. If they are true newbies, then they won't so much as be looking to pick a specific race for RP reasons, but probably picked it due to being it in another game.
2. Why can't novies Reincarnate as much as they want? Would it be hard to code something to where up to circle 30, a novie can reincarnate as many times as they want, but after 30 they only get one chance?
I know why he did it, because Fain loves orclach and taurians. That doesn't mean we need to encourage them to be nihilists
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order.
Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.