Guild Covenants

Ieptix

I've noticed recently some discussion on the forums related to perceived deficiencies of guild covenants. Due to the particular goals of guild covenants (particularly in making life easier for newbies, particularly those in less-populated guilds), this week I will be looking into implementing some player-suggested changes to the covenant system to make them more usable and effective. So, post any ideas you might have regarding covenants!

Diniah

1) Shared guild scrolls, detailing progression at least to a certain point.
2) Undersecretaries an secretaries having the ability to affect novices of both guilds equally. This would apply to favors, as well as promotions from novice to full guild member, an such.

Lavinya

The ability to share scrolls in someway, and also to read logs would be very helpful. Needing to have an extra shared clan seems to defeat the purpose of the covenant, when it could be done without the process. I say logs so favours can be cheked before they are given. EG:

readlog covenant (to show all logs of both guilds, perhaps?)
COVHELP <file> to share files for guild requirements etc. I think it would be preferable than just sharing all guild files.

Elanorwen

1) Guild score, guild inventory, guild skills accessible to people of the proper rank across guilds.
2) Readlog accessible for both guilds and, hopefully, associated organizations (Air Lords, Continuum, etc)
3) Diplomacy accessible across guilds by the proper individuals (Protector, Security, etc)


It's almost midnight right now, so I can't think of more stuff, but there likely will be more from me tomorrow.

Eritheyl

Elanorwen said:

1) Guild score, guild inventory, guild skills accessible to people of the proper rank across guilds.
2) Readlog accessible for both guilds and, hopefully, associated organizations (Air Lords, Continuum, etc)
3) Diplomacy accessible across guilds by the proper individuals (Protector, Security, etc)


It's almost midnight right now, so I can't think of more stuff, but there likely will be more from me tomorrow.

---

I agree with the first two, but the third one I'm somewhat iffy about. An enemy status from a guild is given by the guild, and I don't think anyone aside from the leaders of that guild should be able to revoke it.

Edit: Why, quotes. Whyyy.

Rialorm

If sharing guild scrolls is an option, please make it so that we can share existing scrolls rather than have to create a new scroll at the covenant level. To avoid doing things double, and also if the covenant gets broken that the scrolls don't vanish. Please do not automatically make all scrolls shared either, guild 'secrets' and all that. 

Ieptix

For the help files thing, would something along the lines of all guildhelp files ending with the suffix "cov" being automatically kept in sync across both guilds work?

For example, if the Cuddlemancer and the Snugguardian guilds have a covenant, Archcuddler Xenthos would be able to GHELP EDIT cuddlenovicescov, and anyone from the Snugguardians would then have access to the file in their own guild. Further, Master of Snuggles Eritheyl would be able to edit the cuddlenovicescov file from his guild, and it would update the file for the Cuddlemancers as well.

Enyalida

Can guilds have the option to also limit priv sharing to folks under certain ranks: Allow covenant people to guild inventory/score/whatever people under rank 3, for instance?

Lerad

Yes, allowing members of a covenant to be able to access and edit some common help scrolls without needing an extra clan would be very good. Please put that in.

Allowing security/protector/diplomacy access across covenants would help the org as a whole, not just newbies, so I'd say yes to it as well, but the common help scrolls one is, at the very least, a must.

Rialorm

Ieptix said:

For the help files thing, would something along the lines of all guildhelp files ending with the suffix "cov" being automatically kept in sync across both guilds work?

For example, if the Cuddlemancer and the Snugguardian guilds have a covenant, Archcuddler Xenthos would be able to GHELP EDIT cuddlenovicescov, and anyone from the Snugguardians would then have access to the file in their own guild. Further, Master of Snuggles Eritheyl would be able to edit the cuddlenovicescov file from his guild, and it would update the file for the Cuddlemancers as well.

If that is the best / only way to make it work then that will have to do, I have a suspicion you might be running into legacy code or system limitations here for you to ask that.

Personally I was more thinking that after you make a scroll you could do something like COVENANT SHARE <helpfile> and COVENANT UNSHARE <helpfile> plus a way to see what files are shared or not. Maybe put a little symbol next to them on the GHELP overview or put covenant in brackets after the name. 

Pectus

GUILD LEDGER FIND
   - Find the location and area of a guild novice.
GUILD LEDGER SUMMON
   - Summon a guild novice.
GUILD LEDGER TELEPORT
   - Teleport to a guild novice.

Make it so these can be used across the covenant? Most of the time we just use the covenants for novice care in dead guilds anyway

Elanorwen

Rescue might be nice to have, too... although lately I seem to notice nobody ever calls for help. (Not to mention that it needing a declare on prime is strange at best)

I don't see why there's a complaint in regards to diplomacy. Perhaps limit it to being read-only for the covenant guild as opposed to running the ability to set fines/etc across, even though I personally don't see the issue there. If you can't trust the members of your covenant guild to set proper fines, it'll take all of two wrong attempts for the people seeking unenemying to figure out that they need to speak with your guild when they pay a fine and end up back on the enemy list.

Parua

Just to echo and support what has already been said:

1) allow sharing of certain files across the covenant

2) favors carry the same weight across the covenant

3) read logs of your covenant guild

Couple new things (unless I just missed them)

A) allow members of covenant guild to count for guild rites*

B)allow the proper equivalent ranks in covenant guilds to advance and hold back in the collegium

C) see enemy status of your covenant guild, for example: "She is an enemy of your covenant guild."

D) see status of associated orgs, like Moonspirit or Demon Lords "He is an enemy of your covenant guild's associated organization"

E) allow writing to logs of your covenant guild, provided you are able to write to your own guild log.

*now I guess that this could be slightly gameable, allowing for the guilds to perform up to 2 guild rites per RL day, but the essence and exp involved are so negligible, I really don't see this as being a serious problem.

Llandros

I'm a big fan of the covenant concept so I'm happy to see them getting attention. Shared scrolls are a great idea.

I think maybe a scroll titled newbie-cov would be a little more clear than newbiecov though.

The other big hurdle is forming the covenant. You need an active patron and guild leaders to form it which can be a lot to ask of guilds that could benefit from this the most. When I went through this I was told it was hard coded and there was nothing that could be done. Putting in back door for the divine to force it through would be helpful.

With only sharing some scrolls, keeping the news boards separate and having gts for private in-guild conversations, privacy concerns are covered pretty well. Other things should be worked out when the covenant is formed and updated as needed.

Astraea

Definitely guild score/skills/inventory and all that should be covenant-wide.

Nihta

I feel like I am the only one who wants some degree of separation left between covenant guilds.

What if when a covenant was formed a third entity called the covenant came into existence. Covenants would have their own help scroll section which both guilds could write to COVHELP. Member guilds of the covenant could appoint covenant secretaries and covenant undersecretaries which would be given the ability to do the job for both guilds (but secretaries of one guild would not automatically be secretaries of the other unless expressly appointed).

I think guildfavours should be able to be sent across the divide of the covenant, but a guildfavour from a member of your own guild be worth more than from the other.

I like the idea of sharing guild score/skills/inventory and sharing guild rites and enemy lists.

I don't really see the point in sharing logs, and I think we certainly should not share bank accounts, credit accounts, ect.

Brona

I just don't want to see this become like the failed system Imperian has.  In which case, guild identity gets destroyed.

Llandros

I'm not sure why you would put any kind of secret information in the logs or any anything like that but it would definitely be helpful.

It would be nice to make sure novices aren't being double favoured. If they just got through novicehood by timing out then they probably need to be checked on. If someone joined through the guild tutor that would be helpful to know since it might not always be as obvious as someone coming out the portal.

Having a covenant be it's own thing might be outside the scope of how much resources they are willing to spend here. Also, it could be confusing for novices to have newbie scrolls scattered across several locations. They already have the game help files, collegium help files and guild help files to navigate. 

Nihta

well, as for it being confusing for newbies, their guild scrolls would probably still also be in their guild - and they don't need to know information from the other guild terribly much. I would understand it as being more for the secretaries to help advance the other guild.

Parua

@Nihta

I don't think anybody is suggesting that both guilds have access to -all- the scrolls of their covenant guild. Just certain scrolls tagged to be covenant scrolls.

Elanorwen

Why would you want favours coming from covenant be worth less? Example being... a member of the Symphonium completes an advancement task. By all rights, he's meant a GF from one of the leader triumvirate. None of the currently online leaders have favours available, but luckily for them, there's an Aero GL ready and able to assist. They ask for the favour be granted, and it is... and it accomplishes... not what was intended, putting the person that received it up just enough so that when they're favored next by a symph GL, they gain TWO ranks instead of one. That's hardly a solution for less active leadership on one side of the covenant.

Nihta

I guess that is true, but I feel that with all the changes proposed a covenant would create new guilds out of 2 old guilds, and I am not sure I want that. I want to keep some insularity in the guild so that guild RP can survive, and that the guilds remain more important in the life of a guild member than the covenant.

Parua

Guilds still: have their own separate guild halls, have separate guild scrolls (only the covenant scrolls would be shared) GTS and news boards separate, higher tier advancement still separate, have separate purposes, and have separate leadership. The only changes are ones that allow another guild to help the novices of the other guild. At least, that's all I see with the proposed additions to the covenant system

Xenthos

Ieptix said:

Archcuddler Xenthos

Why, hello there, Ieptix!  I think you need a cuddle!

* Trans skill: Ieptix has been given the Cuddle of Death by Xenthos and liked it all the way into the grave.

Cyndarin

I would cap the guildrank at which members could receive GFs from the other guild. Such as a Nekotai can't GF a SD over GR3. 

 

My concern with merging logs AND channels is that the guilds are just going to start merging together and interaction is going to be less guild centric, which some people will like I suppose. Not because the guilds are inherently oversharing, but because the typical lines of communication are all going to be shared and the only other avenues for JUST SD communication are GST (which not everyone has) or in person group meetings. If I want to just talk to my guild, I can't. I have to include the Nekotai.

 

The guild aether and guild logs are really the central day to day methods of communication between the guilds. News tends to be less day to day chit chat and upkeep, and more big picture and major changes. For example, I don't think the Nekotai should be privvy to a guildwide discussion about the next Princess of Shadows.

 

 

Xenthos

Celina said:

I would cap the guildrank at which members could receive GFs from the other guild. Such as a Nekotai can't GF a SD over GR3. 

 

My concern with merging logs AND channels is that the guilds are just going to start merging together and interaction is going to be less guild centric, which some people will like I suppose. Not because the guilds are inherently oversharing, but because the typical lines of communication are all going to be shared and the only other avenues for JUST SD communication are GST (which not everyone has) or in person group meetings. If I want to just talk to my guild, I can't. I have to include the Nekotai.

 

The guild aether and guild logs are really the central day to day methods of communication between the guilds. News tends to be less day to day chit chat and upkeep, and more big picture and major changes. For example, I don't think the Nekotai should be privvy to a guildwide discussion about the next Princess of Shadows.

 

 

My vision for this is to make it easier for guild members to get to rank 5; this means that you can then use GTS to speak with just your guild if you need to.  It also makes it easier to get members more involved in the guild, if they are progressing, so I see it as win-win.

Elanorwen

Celina said:

I would cap the guildrank at which members could receive GFs from the other guild. Such as a Nekotai can't GF a SD over GR3. 

 

My concern with merging logs AND channels is that the guilds are just going to start merging together and interaction is going to be less guild centric, which some people will like I suppose. Not because the guilds are inherently oversharing, but because the typical lines of communication are all going to be shared and the only other avenues for JUST SD communication are GST (which not everyone has) or in person group meetings. If I want to just talk to my guild, I can't. I have to include the Nekotai.

 

The guild aether and guild logs are really the central day to day methods of communication between the guilds. News tends to be less day to day chit chat and upkeep, and more big picture and major changes. For example, I don't think the Nekotai should be privvy to a guildwide discussion about the next Princess of Shadows.

 

 

Never mentioned logs need to be merged. Just said that covenants should have access to each-other's logs... so the way you do readlog shadowdancers today, you'd be able to also look at readlog nekotai. The logs are technically still separate, you just have access to reading/writing both.

The point being... you log on, you read both logs, note that Janalon has written the following in the Neko log: "Newbie431 has earned a favour, please provide accordingly" So you go ahead and guildfavour newbie431 <Cause Janalon said so> and everyone's happy.

Nihta

I would prefer limiting covenant powers to ones that could only affect novices / low GR members. Maybe if we want to be able to write log, the covenant could have a log (which basically only is used for writelog by people with privs). I don't think it is too much extra work to read that log in addition to your own, or to mention that you favoured someone, ect. That way at least guilds could choose what they share.

Llandros

With the Cacophony having such a growth spurt and doing so well we have definitely been pretty independent for a while now and have not been having problems with it.

Aside from the occasional misaether from Pectus the Nihilists have no idea we have a good laugh at their expense. I certainly wouldn't writelog cacophony OH HELL NIL! Did you see what those bitches were wearing today!?!?!?! For a number of reasons really but mostly because I'm classy.

Cyndarin

Elanorwen said:

Celina said:

I would cap the guildrank at which members could receive GFs from the other guild. Such as a Nekotai can't GF a SD over GR3. 

 

My concern with merging logs AND channels is that the guilds are just going to start merging together and interaction is going to be less guild centric, which some people will like I suppose. Not because the guilds are inherently oversharing, but because the typical lines of communication are all going to be shared and the only other avenues for JUST SD communication are GST (which not everyone has) or in person group meetings. If I want to just talk to my guild, I can't. I have to include the Nekotai.

 

The guild aether and guild logs are really the central day to day methods of communication between the guilds. News tends to be less day to day chit chat and upkeep, and more big picture and major changes. For example, I don't think the Nekotai should be privvy to a guildwide discussion about the next Princess of Shadows.

 

 

Never mentioned logs need to be merged. Just said that covenants should have access to each-other's logs... so the way you do readlog shadowdancers today, you'd be able to also look at readlog nekotai. The logs are technically still separate, you just have access to reading/writing both.

The point being... you log on, you read both logs, note that Janalon has written the following in the Neko log: "Newbie431 has earned a favour, please provide accordingly" So you go ahead and guildfavour newbie431 <Cause Janalon said so> and everyone's happy.

That's really just arguing semantics. If everyone has access to both all the time, it may as well be the same thing. At that point, it's simply a tedious task to check both rather than merging them outright like the GT aether. "Technically" seperate is not the same as truly seperate entities. It does not address the above concern, (though whether the above concern needs to be addressed may be a matter of opinion).

 

I, personally, liked Covenants in theory but have disliked them in practice. However, I understand their value. Whether the alternate option of maintaining identities WHILE provided newbies with adequate promotion opportunities is realistic or not may dictate how much of this actually gets implemented. Obviously we can't back track and unrelease guilds to boost populations, so my concerns may be wholly secondary to the more immediate concerns of newbie advancement.

 

That being said, considering most "newbie" tasks end at GR3 when you enter as a full guild member, I don't think anyone should be teaching the more lore centric aspects of other guilds than the guild itself. I believe in being conservative rather than liberal on how far we let the guilds influence eachother's new players.

Parua

I wonder if there's a way to change the way the aethers work. So instead of being able to see each other talking on the regular aether, you'd do GCT (guild covenant talk) and have it be a separate channel.

I will admit, I don't like sharing GT with the covenant guild.