I still maintain that having factions in each org (night worshipers, Crow murderers, scorp followers) that can rise and fall similar to Lusternia houses is the way to go. Start with admin created ones that mirror the current guild structure, and then let loose. Players can form their own, they can disappear if they fall below a certain threshold, etc. Will flesh out the idea in its own thread once I'm not phone typing
Ieptix's suggestion would allow that flexibility - the only things that is shared would be the help files that are designated to be shared via adding the suffix.
For log reading and all, I personally don't think it's that big of a deal, shared or not. Access to certain helpfiles without needing the hassle of pastebin and the such would already be a big step to solving the most pressing problems. The newbies of any guild, Covenanted or not, probably doesn't even know logs exist.
* Adding a new GCT channel or something would be possible, but I almost see it as just adding complexity for no major gain; it largely becomes just _another_ channel to keep track of, especially for new players, who already have NEWBIE and CT and CGT and GNT and GT and quite possibly a handful of CLTs and probably others I'm forgetting. Am interested in more feedback regarding channels.
Tangential thought: I think we should get rid of GNT, and just give full access to GT from novicehood onward. It's not like they're missing anything delectable.
...that said, to compromise, I would still prefer the covenant channel made separate (or gr5 should be the new gr3 in terms of ease of new player advancement, which it already is in some guilds I've joined).
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
If Ieptix's list is the way we're going, I don't see why we shouldn't just dissolve the guilds altogether. Not my preferred option, but that certainly seems the direction we're going. It has its value, even if it's not my direction of choice.
With the advent of classflexing and the merger of guilds in every way imaginable save the actual guild names, it seems more fluid to just realign the focus of the game to orgs and wipe the guilds clean rather than hodge podging covenants into some kind of newbie helping frankenstein.
Please don't do that. I'd prefer not seeing Lusternia go the way of Imperian which is just a giant chat room with no rp and occasional group battles.
For me personally, I came back because I enjoy the RP environment that the Nihilists guild provides and the role they play within Magnagora and the Basin. Without guilds and their specific identities, we will be losing quite a bit of character designs and a basis for old and new players to have an in game role supported by an organization.
I realize that some people do not care about RP, but if just that group is catered to at some point those of us that enjoy RP will get bored and leave.
I don't agree with the implication that guilds form the basis of most roleplay. RP is more fluid than that. I'm just saying that covenant improvements are only a bandaid fix to the population spread.
@Shuyin, I didn't say all RP. However, from the start of making a character a new player's RP begins within the realm of City/Commune, Guild, then Race. This would conceivably remove one of those. In reality, the one that the person will have the most interaction with as a new player. So yes, it will dramatically effect new players in terms of initial development.
Again, guilds built on a foundation based on your class skills isn't particularly deep RP. I would prefer that characters find meaning beyond the ability to spirit bond trout. With that in mind, I would prefer guilds become based on ideology more than skill. Which probably means merging some of them yes.
I'm not talking about skillsets. I'm talking about the lore-based organizations which guilds are. However, I really hate multi-class because that takes bodies away from guilds. Don't want to be in the monk guild for your city? Multi class and join the warrior guild. Monk guild just lost a perspective member. Multiply by 20 and suddenly a guild just dies because people want to be in another guild for whatever reason. I just really like this game and I don't want to see it destroy itself by implementing bad decisions which have already been proven to be damaging to IRE games.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
GUILD ADVANCE already appears to work with covenants. Are there any other novice promotion/advancement related commands of relevance that I'm not seeing?
I'm not talking about skillsets. I'm talking about the lore-based organizations which guilds are. However, I really hate multi-class because that takes bodies away from guilds. Don't want to be in the monk guild for your city? Multi class and join the warrior guild. Monk guild just lost a perspective member. Multiply by 20 and suddenly a guild just dies because people want to be in another guild for whatever reason. I just really like this game and I don't want to see it destroy itself by implementing bad decisions which have already been proven to be damaging to IRE games.
This doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. If people are staying in a guild just for the skills something clearly needs to be done, if that thing is getting rid of that guild and allowing members in other guilds to take theirs kills, seems like a good solution to me. Obviously folks in that monk guild weren't getting good/fun/satisfying rp from that guild, why should they be punished with a lame guild? Especially for some of the guilds that hurt their entire org being empty, as their skills prove vital for org conflict.
So with the new updates to covenants, I had another idea that might work better for the scrolls - of which I hope it's not impossible to do! I was thinking that the scrolls of the guild could have permissions attached to them, like we would give permissions for someone to enter or not enter a manse / aethership module etc.
This would then reduce the amount of scroll visible to a newbie in GHELP - they would only see the scrolls most important to them at the time (Rules, conduct, respect, titles, history, advancement -whichever scrolls you feel they need as a newbie) And then when they hit GR1, more scrolls will be visible..and so on.
Another example, I will use the Moondancers. From GR1-3 you had tasks to do before you became a true member of the Coven - so you could restrict a number of scrolls until they hit GR3, to immerse the more in the guild.
I think something like this will give an incentive, too, for people to advance to learn more of the guild (if that's how you play the above) This would also be useful to have the leaders, their secretaries/undersecs/prot/security to have scrolls that would only be viewable to them for teaching purposes, advancement recording, etc. (Though I suppose that this is also what projects are for..) but this would also reduce the need to have a separate clan for undersec/sec/GA/teachers (like we had in the Moondancers, the Coven of the Moon clan was for teachers so we had scrolls to keep records on novices / scrolls for teaching guides etc)
I hope I didn't ramble too much!
EDIT: Oh, so this is also for guild covenants, too. EX. As a Blacktalon in Covenant with Ebonguard, I could set the permissions of GHELP ABC to EBONGUARD ALL or if I had a lore scroll that only the guild leaders should see, GHELP XYZ to EBONGUARD GA ; EBONGUARD GC ; EBONGUARD GM
I'd personally like to see the GHELP RENAME <current name> <new name> added as an option to guild leaders to make it easier to reorganize scrolls as needed.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
So with the new updates to covenants, I had another idea that might work better for the scrolls - of which I hope it's not impossible to do! I was thinking that the scrolls of the guild could have permissions attached to them, like we would give permissions for someone to enter or not enter a manse / aethership module etc.
This would then reduce the amount of scroll visible to a newbie in GHELP - they would only see the scrolls most important to them at the time (Rules, conduct, respect, titles, history, advancement -whichever scrolls you feel they need as a newbie) And then when they hit GR1, more scrolls will be visible..and so on.
Another example, I will use the Moondancers. From GR1-3 you had tasks to do before you became a true member of the Coven - so you could restrict a number of scrolls until they hit GR3, to immerse the more in the guild.
I think something like this will give an incentive, too, for people to advance to learn more of the guild (if that's how you play the above) This would also be useful to have the leaders, their secretaries/undersecs/prot/security to have scrolls that would only be viewable to them for teaching purposes, advancement recording, etc. (Though I suppose that this is also what projects are for..) but this would also reduce the need to have a separate clan for undersec/sec/GA/teachers (like we had in the Moondancers, the Coven of the Moon clan was for teachers so we had scrolls to keep records on novices / scrolls for teaching guides etc)
I hope I didn't ramble too much!
EDIT: Oh, so this is also for guild covenants, too. EX. As a Blacktalon in Covenant with Ebonguard, I could set the permissions of GHELP ABC to EBONGUARD ALL or if I had a lore scroll that only the guild leaders should see, GHELP XYZ to EBONGUARD GA ; EBONGUARD GC ; EBONGUARD GM
A much better way to do this will be to steal (yes, outright steal and adapt) Aetolia's orghelp index system. Here it is:
6.28 Organizational Help Files
As much as our help file system documents, it will never even approach fully covering everything there is to know in Aetolia, as much of that knowledge is player-created and ever-changing. In order to facilitate the passing of information from older players to younger players, and to assist in the creation of a culture within these organizations, cities, guilds, clans, and Divine Orders can create organizational help files. The commands are as follows:
CITYHELP EDIT <file name> - Can be done by ruling council, and any Minister. Creates or edits a help file with that name.
CITYHELP DELETE <filename> - Can be done by ruling council, and any Minister. Deletes a help file with that name.
CITYHELP or CITYHELP INDEX - Shows you an index of city help files.
CITYHELP EDIT INDEX - Done by the organization leader, edits the appearance of the city help index itself.
CITYHELP <file name> - Shows you a particular city help file.
The syntaxes for the other organizations are the same, except the root verb is: GUILDHELP, CLHELP, HOUSEHELP, or ORDERHELP.
In guilds, GMs and Secretaries can edit and delete. In Clans, only the clan head and those bestowed with the ability may do it, though in all cases, the organizational Patron can also edit the files. In Orders, only the God or Goddess and those that have the 'orderhelp' privilege may edit files for the Order.
You can create a custom index page for your orghelp by editing the 'index' file. Note that this means you will have to update the index each time your files get created or deleted. You can use GHELP REALINDEX to see an automatically updated list of all your orghelp files.
Orghelp files can be linked using MXP links as such:
To link to another one of your organization's help files, you wrap the help file's name in [[ and ]], i.e. [[filenamehere]].
To link to an actual help file you should wrap the help file name in [< and >], i.e. [<helpfilenamehere>].
Here is a slightly more verbose example:
Hello novice! Please take the time to read GHELP [[PROGRESSION]]. You should also read over HELP [<RAZMAEL>] as he's a pretty cool guy.
Here's what anyone typing CHELP sees:
Help Index: The City of Bloodloch ------------------------------------------------------------ Composed by: Lyl Composed on: 2013/12/08 14:19 GMT
++-----------------------------------------------++ + + | THE OFFICIAL SCROLLS OF THE CITY OF BLOODLOCH | + + ++-----------------------------------------------++
================ =============== || RESEARCH || || HUNTING || ================ =============== - Research - Hunting One - Research Benefits - Hunting Two - Research Rewards - Hunting Three + Project 1134 + Project 1384 - TABLE OF CONTENTS + + Project 1117 + Project 1382 (rare organs) - Ylem Mist + Project 1287 (directions: 5-30) + Project 1345 (directions: 31-45) + Project 1357 (directions: 46-60) + Project 1377 (directions: 61+)
And here's what the realindex looks like:
Bloodloch: Realindex ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ambassador's Ministry Becoming Undead City Credits City Portals City Shops Commodity Shops Crafters Directions Hunting One Hunting Three Hunting Two Index Map Novice Hunting Novice Quests Novice Titles Personal Dwellings Research Research Benefits Research Rewards Shrines The Orrery The Tenebrous Glass Welcome Ylem Mist Yohanan
Anyone else like to listen to your Covenanted Guild (the other guild, in other words) argue, and want to chip in but you realise it's not your business?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Anyone else like to listen to your Covenanted Guild (the other guild, in other words) argue, and want to chip in but you realise it's not your business?
Nope. I chip in because I'm a raging bitch.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
Comments
For log reading and all, I personally don't think it's that big of a deal, shared or not. Access to certain helpfiles without needing the hassle of pastebin and the such would already be a big step to solving the most pressing problems. The newbies of any guild, Covenanted or not, probably doesn't even know logs exist.
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If Ieptix's list is the way we're going, I don't see why we shouldn't just dissolve the guilds altogether. Not my preferred option, but that certainly seems the direction we're going. It has its value, even if it's not my direction of choice.
With the advent of classflexing and the merger of guilds in every way imaginable save the actual guild names, it seems more fluid to just realign the focus of the game to orgs and wipe the guilds clean rather than hodge podging covenants into some kind of newbie helping frankenstein.
Again, guilds built on a foundation based on your class skills isn't particularly deep RP. I would prefer that characters find meaning beyond the ability to spirit bond trout. With that in mind, I would prefer guilds become based on ideology more than skill. Which probably means merging some of them yes.
I was thinking that the scrolls of the guild could have permissions attached to them, like we would give permissions for someone to enter or not enter a manse / aethership module etc.
GHELP PERMS <scroll> <perms> | PERMS: GR1, GR2, GR3, UNDERSEC, SECR, GM, GA, GC, etc..
Or something along those lines!
This would then reduce the amount of scroll visible to a newbie in GHELP - they would only see the scrolls most important to them at the time (Rules, conduct, respect, titles, history, advancement -whichever scrolls you feel they need as a newbie)
And then when they hit GR1, more scrolls will be visible..and so on.
Another example, I will use the Moondancers. From GR1-3 you had tasks to do before you became a true member of the Coven - so you could restrict a number of scrolls until they hit GR3, to immerse the more in the guild.
I think something like this will give an incentive, too, for people to advance to learn more of the guild (if that's how you play the above)
This would also be useful to have the leaders, their secretaries/undersecs/prot/security to have scrolls that would only be viewable to them for teaching purposes, advancement recording, etc. (Though I suppose that this is also what projects are for..) but this would also reduce the need to have a separate clan for undersec/sec/GA/teachers (like we had in the Moondancers, the Coven of the Moon clan was for teachers so we had scrolls to keep records on novices / scrolls for teaching guides etc)
I hope I didn't ramble too much!
EDIT: Oh, so this is also for guild covenants, too. EX. As a Blacktalon in Covenant with Ebonguard, I could set the permissions of GHELP ABC to EBONGUARD ALL or if I had a lore scroll that only the guild leaders should see, GHELP XYZ to EBONGUARD GA ; EBONGUARD GC ; EBONGUARD GM
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
A much better way to do this will be to steal (yes, outright steal and adapt) Aetolia's orghelp index system. Here it is:
Here's what anyone typing CHELP sees:
And here's what the realindex looks like:
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