I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with your arguments for guild unification there Saran. Yes, the Moondancers may have been a huge guild in the past, with enough people to divide up their population into several clear paths. But this was also the past of the Institute, where we imagined the possibility of six different paths with a different path head and all. And I dare say that it is the present of the Aquamancers.
Guild membership fluxes. That's just the way things are. While there may now be a whole lot more guilds to try and fill up, combining some guilds aren't magically going to make them have a big enough membership to recreate these paths of old. The only way to reliably ensure that guilds are full of people and vitality is to ensure that the total playerbase itself grows. If anything, THAT is where we as players should be focusing our efforts. Not upon making arguments for vast changes in how the guilds of Lusternia function. It is very much a non-ideal solution to change the guild mechanic. There's a whole lot of identity that's going to just be washed out if that so happens.
And while I make no claims to speak on her behalf, I do not think Estarra believes that being a small guild makes it elite. Rather, she seems to be saying that if you are small, seize the opportunity of it and play yourself up as being elite. It reads to me as advice on how to make the best out of a bad situation, rather than worrying about a bad situation.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with your arguments for guild unification there Saran. Yes, the Moondancers may have been a huge guild in the past, with enough people to divide up their population into several clear paths. But this was also the past of the Institute, where we imagined the possibility of six different paths with a different path head and all. And I dare say that it is the present of the Aquamancers.
Guild membership fluxes. That's just the way things are. While there may now be a whole lot more guilds to try and fill up, combining some guilds aren't magically going to make them have a big enough membership to recreate these paths of old. The only way to reliably ensure that guilds are full of people and vitality is to ensure that the total playerbase itself grows. If anything, THAT is where we as players should be focusing our efforts. Not upon making arguments for vast changes in how the guilds of Lusternia function. It is very much a non-ideal solution to change the guild mechanic. There's a whole lot of identity that's going to just be washed out if that so happens.
And while I make no claims to speak on her behalf, I do not think Estarra believes that being a small guild makes it elite. Rather, she seems to be saying that if you are small, seize the opportunity of it and play yourself up as being elite. It reads to me as advice on how to make the best out of a bad situation, rather than worrying about a bad situation.
I feel I need to point out that that I specifically mentioned that the Moondancers were one of the biggest guilds at the time and then provided an example of what we used to consider a small guild. Which was potentially still larger than many of the current guilds.
Yes, guild membership fluxes. The big guilds will not always be so large, the small guilds might grow. However the simple fact is that, we were able to sustain these old things previously, and then over years the player base spread thin and we were unable to sustain them any more. When Hallifax and Gaudiguch first came out I remember there being an announcement stating that their guilds wouldn't come until they had the population to support them, now apparently they're comming regardless?
As I have mentioned previously, I generally tell everyone I meet that might even be vaguely interested in Lusternia about the game. I've even sat there and tried helping them through the early levels. I'm in a club with ~50 regulars who will sit there and play games non-stop for days, they'll play risk 2210 for eight hours (if they're going quick), we have a board games cabinet that has nothing by the parker brothers and has had to have its contents halved multiple times, and we run multiple pen and paper games (we had one this year where we were normal humans trying to fight Akaitera pokemon). Prime hunting grounds for new players for our games, with on acahaen exception they are uninterested in playing in the Iron Realms (Ironically a few were only interested in playing MUDs if we hosted our own and they had builder permissions).
And it's nice that you're concerned about identity, because that's what the people arguing for this seem to be concerned about, I know that I am. We can't pass on our identity because there is no one to pass it on, or to pass it on to. The solutions are to focus more on the commune or city, but this makes people feel that the guilds, their identity is less important and can be forgotten.
As to the comments about being elite and that it's not an issue, I'm sorry but every time I read something like that it feels like I'm telling someone to stop punching me because it hurts and they're telling me "No it doesn't"
I've never really heard of guilds being proud of a small size, allowing them to feel more elite. I feel like that sort of thing is found more in clans or other sorts of group mentalities you'll find in the game. In any case, even if there are guilds than enjoy being smaller, the problem here isn't that they're smaller than other guilds. The problem is that some are not large enough to fill all the necessary positions to function properly.
I've never really heard of guilds being proud of a small size, allowing them to feel more elite. I feel like that sort of thing is found more in clans or other sorts of group mentalities you'll find in the game. In any case, even if there are guilds than enjoy being smaller, the problem here isn't that they're smaller than other guilds. The problem is that some are not large enough to fill all the necessary positions to function properly.
The Symphonium aren't going to have a Champion for a while, given that their Guildmaster and Administrator are virtually the only two members aside from the odd 'log in for five minutes a week'ers. It's essentially been that way since, what...a month or two after the guild opened? The Cantors are about to have either a complete non-com, or a really, really terrible swing at a combatant, as their Champion because there just isn't anyone fitting for the position.
This problem comes up a little too often for my tastes, and I'm glad it's getting some widespread recognition in this thread. However, it is really sad to see that it's being discussed like, as Saran said, "telling someone to stop punching me because it hurts and they're telling me "No it doesn't"".
Guilds that are small to the point of being nearly unable to function without one or two people severely gimping their own fun are not good things. No amount of roleplaying them as 'elite' is going to change this fact. Quite frankly, it blows.
I do think, however, that revamping the Ambassador position as mentioned earlier would be a nice bandage for the time being until some middle ground can be reached between 'this is a problem' and 'really there is no problem'.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
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With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
So, again, what are you chasing after a novice for? Could we add shared duties to other collegium professors not in your guild? I was asking what things because in case others in the city/commune could help out those guilds (small favors or whatnot to help with GR?). Anyway, I'm not sure what the novices are needing which is why I'm asking!
I understand your frustration, but, on the other hand, it's kind of exciting for some people being in the small guild that's struggling. You should play that up! Why not tell newbies or make it clear that the guild is small, secretive, select and elite, and they could expect not to see others often or have to do things on their own. Trust me, there are many players who would be drawn to that. I think you may be making more drama than there needs be, though!
Believe it or not, I've been a GM in empty guilds before. This was in other realms but honestly I don't recall ever feeling the stress you are putting on yourself. I was more excited than anything when a novice joined because finally I had company! I was also big on recruitment. If my guild was low, I'd do whatever I could to poach newbies from other guilds, to bribe established players to join me, and do whatever it took to bring back numbers (okay, so I wasn't exactly nice cakes). Sure, it's a challenge, but it can be fun!
Well, think of it this way. If someone else in the org spends their time with the novice, it's very realistic to think the novice has a good chance to jump ship to that guild where they have happy, helpful people around rather than crickets on GNT. It ties back with the problem that big guilds tend to stay big because they have the people and time to invest in each novice that comes through and the lchance of them sticking around is much higher. Sure, we can add a bunch of auto advanacement, but how interesting is that. People don't stick around in a particular guild JUST to advance. There's intereaction and atmosphere by players that keep them around.
I think in theory that works, and I do try to push the "only the keenest of minds are worthy of Mother Night's blessing blah blah", it was even in my last guild post, but honestly...people aren't dumb. They know the guild is empty because people aren't joining because it's more fun somehwere else, not because Mother Night is a picky bitch. It's one of those things that if you push it, you kind of come across as wildly delusional or in denial.
I do understand a lot of it is stress I'm putting on myself, but when you sign up for GM, you are generally more commited to the success and prosperity of the guild than joe the gr3. You want to guild to grow, be intersting, flourish in RP...and whether you want to be or not, you are labeled the responsible party...and as they say, it takes a village, and a smart leader knows that the best a guild can be isn't the result of one person's work. Esentially I feel like I'm spinning my wheels in the mud as a GM. I mean, I'm proud of what I've done and the RP perspective that I've brought to Queen, but mechanically speaking...there's nothing for me to do. Revamp the convoluted advancement system? No one around to advance anyways. Add some stuff to the guildhall? We're small, and as such, we are poor. Train some combatants? Nope, it's just me. Personally I don't want to rob other guilds of novices because that's not really a solution to the greater percieved problem. It is just shifting the problem around momentarily.
I think what players want is not an immediate finger snap of a solution, we're realistic (or at least I am) and we get it's the end of the year and you have things already in your queue. What we want to do is explore options, and I think that even a general recognition of the problem, that there is a difference between "small and selective" and "can't even fill their leadership roles," would go a long way. I mean, simple (in idea, I have no idea about code) solutions for the short term like letting leaders fill multiple elected positions so they can at least do the actual job and long term idea like factions, automated guild advancement, or guild mergers.
**edit** Just as a note, guilds with dormant leaders can't kick high ranked people out, they ran into this with Munsia. Can't appoint security or secretaries depending on just how dormant they are. Some examples of mechanical issues that we run in to.
Yeah, I'm not sure the solution to "guilds don't have enough people to fill leadership positions (or guilds have too many positions)" is "make yourself elite".
Scorpion. No other guild, not even Glomdoring, nor any other city or commune care like the Nekotai does. Why don't I interact with my commune mates more than I do my cultists? Because my commune mates don't "get it".
The elite thing goes out the window when you remember that npcs induct any newbie who feels like joining. Including the ones a 'elite and selective' guild would never select.
To address the issuse with too many positions, not enough leaders could we consolidate power into one position?
The guild master would remain and inherit all the bulk of the privileges that go with leading the guild. The guild champion and administrator could move to being a third teir on their respective ranks perhaps?
The gm could gain the ability to appoint protectors and undersecretaries, and a new priv... perhaps bequeath? Which allows them to promote a member of the security or secretary groups to the champ or admin position. This would give them any additional privileges they would need for the position. Maybe the process on either side could take a number of days during which members of the guild can chose to oppose or support the action?
So... Queen Celina is elected to her position, there are no other positions filled, at this time she has the Crown, the Shadow Archives, and the Ebon Orb. Because there is no one worthy of the princely titles she keeps the Archives and Orb. Over time she finds worthy undersecretaries and protectors, some of these prove themselves to be greater than the rest and they rise to the ranks of secretary and security. One secretary in particular impresses her, and so with great ceremony she bestows upon them the Shadow Archives and the title of Prince(ss) of Shadows, unfortunately none of the security have managed to truly impress her enough to be worthy of the orb and so she retains it, along with the privileges it offers her, awaiting a champion worthy of her and night.
Of course, this means that all the power is invested in one position and that could be bad, but primarily it would mean the champion/admin positions would only exist separately from the gm when needed.
To address the issuse with too many positions, not enough leaders could we consolidate power into one position?
The guild master would remain and inherit all the bulk of the privileges that go with leading the guild. The guild champion and administrator could move to being a third teir on their respective ranks perhaps?
The gm could gain the ability to appoint protectors and undersecretaries, and a new priv... perhaps bequeath? Which allows them to promote a member of the security or secretary groups to the champ or admin position. This would give them any additional privileges they would need for the position. Maybe the process on either side could take a number of days during which members of the guild can chose to oppose or support the action?
So... Queen Celina is elected to her position, there are no other positions filled, at this time she has the Crown, the Shadow Archives, and the Ebon Orb. Because there is no one worthy of the princely titles she keeps the Archives and Orb. Over time she finds worthy undersecretaries and protectors, some of these prove themselves to be greater than the rest and they rise to the ranks of secretary and security. One secretary in particular impresses her, and so with great ceremony she bestows upon them the Shadow Archives and the title of Prince(ss) of Shadows, unfortunately none of the security have managed to truly impress her enough to be worthy of the orb and so she retains it, along with the privileges it offers her, awaiting a champion worthy of her and night.
Of course, this means that all the power is invested in one position and that could be bad, but primarily it would mean the champion/admin positions would only exist separately from the gm when needed.
I'd be fine with the GM getting powers of unfilled positions, BUT not them being able to appoint. All guild leadership positions should still have to be filled by vote. So, say there is no GC, then the GM temporarily gets their privs, but as soon as one is elected, it returns to how it was.
I see no issue with the GM holding all of the powers because they can be elected out of office. If the people don't like the power hungry GM, they step up and run against them.
As long as there'd be a way to vote to keep the vacancy. Right now there isn't. If there's only one person in the election, they always win.
I'd be fine with that as well... but the real issue would come is when there isn't a GM... should the GA get the privs that the GM has related to them, and the GC the privs related to them?
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I am definitely not in favor of having the GM being able to appoint GA's or GC's. Even in the SD's where traditionally the GM is the Biggest of the Big, it would change the dynamic in a very (in my opinion) unhealthy way. Likewise, a lot of what Estarra has said has actually done a bit to allay some of my fears and anxiety over this - Yeah, it is pretty sucky, but I'm thinking, maybe it is best if you kind of just fling up your arms and just go with it. I still feel like we are all way too spread out, but I'm definitely considering ways to alleviate the pressure ICly instead of looking for an OOC structural fix.
Edit: Though, I'd been considering - what about a way for guilds to more flexibly interact with each other on an organizational basis. For instance, what if, after long talks and discussion, the Harbingers and Shadowdancers decided to formalize some treaty or contract, and enter into a closer relationship. This would give SD and HB leadership limited abilities in the other guild, capable of perhaps reading ghelps and training/teaching newbies, and advancing them out of novicehood, though they wouldn't be able to directly advance them after that, but could still offer support in an advisory manner.
Edit2:
**************************[ THE SHADOWDANCERS GUILD & Allies ]**************************
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I'm not sure "going with it" is really an option for several guilds right now. I mean, the only reason the SDs will have a GA is because the GM of another guild (you) were guilt tripped and moved. Our previoud GA phased in and out of activity for a long time. The GC is barely a combatant, I'm pretty sure the GC before him didn't have a system. We're managing, but we're what I would call barely scraping by with the absolute minimum. We have active and experienced leaders (all 3 have been GMs at one point) so we'll push through...but it just kind of sucks that if we are honest about it, it's kind of as good as it's going to get for a long while.
The crappiest part is a few guilds (more than one) have it even worse and aren't even managing to fill their leadership positions with active people over very long periods of time. Daedalion was institute GC for months and months and months, and when was the last time that guy even logged on, much less fought someone. Maybe if it was isolated, but it's not. It's a few guilds, and it's kind of a recurring trend. I mean, you can't even find a combatant, much less a champion worthy one, in every guild. I feel like that's a pretty big indication of a population problem. Most guilds seriously have their one token combatant.
That being said, I like that guild alliance thing idea. It's kind of like factions but allows the players to kind of blend things more thematically (BT and SDs probably not going to work out). The guilds could keep their identities, but merge a bit and share a channel so it's not crickets all the time.
I do like the semi-merge idea (letting the guilds remain distinct, but able to do things like help out with favours and the like). It's a way to keep the separation Estarra wants while letting us address things from a player standpoint.
Depending on how it is implemented and handled it does have a fair bit of potential, and it might help alleviate the 'not my guild, not my problem' issue. Especially if ambassadors and their aides are given more direct control over helping out novices, as well.
Throw into this the ability for us to set lesson plans for guild tutors that they can offer to teach newblets (maybe even at a faster speed, so the tutor can do all 65 lessons of knighthood in one go), and you have a more robust system available for small guilds to take advantage of.
Token combatant is such a harsh term.
I do like the semi-merge idea (letting the guilds remain distinct, but able to do things like help out with favours and the like). It's a way to keep the separation Estarra wants while letting us address things from a player standpoint.
Depending on how it is implemented and handled it does have a fair bit of potential, and it might help alleviate the 'not my guild, not my problem' issue. Especially if ambassadors and their aides are given more direct control over helping out novices, as well.
Throw into this the ability for us to set lesson plans for guild tutors that they can offer to teach newblets (maybe even at a faster speed, so the tutor can do all 65 lessons of knighthood in one go), and you have a more robust system available for small guilds to take advantage of.
Quoting because I cannot like and agree with a post any more than what I can right now.
This idea is amazing and a mechanical compromise Estarra was looking for
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
So I just want to throw a, possibly relevant, two cents in here.
I tried Lusternia a while back and liked the world and concepts in the game but was frustrated that there was never anyone in my guild to teach me how to play my guild. Other people could help-ish, but it's not the same. I eventually got frustrated and left.
I was pondering a return today and googled "lusternia population" and this thread is one of the top results. I saw the subject and thought, "Good! They're dealing with the issue." So I read and saw lots of excellent arguments in favor of consolidation as well as other ideas posed. Then Estarra started posting. What I took away from those posts is, "You're wrong. People like small guilds. Doing anything wouldn't make a difference anyways. We're low population so why bother trying anything? I'm really busy and can't be bothered."
That pretty much decided it for me as far as coming back. From my perspective this is a big issue for the game and the administration is totally uninterested in dealing with it.
Not trying to be snarky, just give the perspective of a "newcomer" which was one of the big concerns of this discussion.
So I just want to throw a, possibly relevant, two cents in here.
I tried Lusternia a while back and liked the world and concepts in the game but was frustrated that there was never anyone in my guild to teach me how to play my guild. Other people could help-ish, but it's not the same. I eventually got frustrated and left.
I was pondering a return today and googled "lusternia population" and this thread is one of the top results. I saw the subject and thought, "Good! They're dealing with the issue." So I read and saw lots of excellent arguments in favor of consolidation as well as other ideas posed. Then Estarra started posting. What I took away from those posts is, "You're wrong. People like small guilds. Doing anything wouldn't make a difference anyways. We're low population so why bother trying anything? I'm really busy and can't be bothered."
That pretty much decided it for me as far as coming back. From my perspective this is a big issue for the game and the administration is totally uninterested in dealing with it.
Not trying to be snarky, just give the perspective of a "newcomer" which was one of the big concerns of this discussion.
I'm sorry that you had a negative experience on your first try, Gesiah. I think you're mistaken, however. Estarra specifically created Guild Covenants to help with the population issues in smaller guilds. If you give the game another try, let us know what you think about the new covenants!
It's unfortunate that that was your take away from this thread. In fact, the administration implemented an idea which probably came from this thread (I don't know, as I wasn't around for it), and was why the conversation was dropped: guilds can now make covenants with other guilds, which allows members of larger guilds to take a more active role in helping novices of their covenanted guild, combines guild channels, and so on. I know several of the smaller Hallifaxian guilds have taken advantage of this, and from what I've seen it's been helpful.
First: Your considerations to return are obviously not serious if you only read one 6 month old thread and don't talk to anyone or ask questions. With the introduction of guild covenants, smaller pop guilds are able to team up with other guilds to make sure novices aren't left in the lurch. They share guild and guild novice channels, good stuff.
I'm sorry that you had a negative experience on your first try, Gesiah. I think you're mistaken, however. Estarra specifically created Guild Covenants to help with the population issues in smaller guilds. If you give the game another try, let us know what you think about the new covenants!
I will most definitely not be doing that and you can thank Llandros. I was tempted after yours and Allyrianne's posts but I read Llandros', laughed and realized that's not a population I want to be a part of.
I actually urge you to give Lusternia another try. A large part of the problem, besides the population issue, is the timing in which you log on. Each guild has its periods when the bulk of its members are most active and it's very possible you might have attempted at the wrong times. Around its peak times, you'll usually find people to engage with and help you learn what you need.
Lusternia definitely does have a small population, which is surprising because of everything it has to offer. I don't know if it's due to a lack of exposure or what.
I'm somewhat skeptical that covenants have fixed any perceived problems, however. Though perhaps the guilds that have tried them out could take the time to discuss whatever impact they've had.
In my personal opinion, we probably have too many guilds for our current population. The popular ones thrive, and the less popular ones tend to fall into a vicious cycle where novices are driven away by the lack of interaction. The only real fix to this problem is to see how we can bring in more players, since no guilds are going anywhere, and consider holding off releasing new guilds until we have the population to support them.
I will most definitely not be doing that and you can thank Llandros. I was tempted after yours and Allyrianne's posts but I read Llandros', laughed and realized that's not a population I want to be a part of.
Don't let him spoil the game for you. Every community has its bitter veterans and its obnoxious griefers, but of all the Iron Realms MUDs I've played, Lusternia generally has the least tolerance for such people.
Now, in my bitter cynical-ness I could give you other valid reasons not to try Lusternia, but definitely don't count a toxic population among them.
Lusternia is an extremely complex, extremely deep game that genuinely requires the assistance of others to so much as get started. Even with proper guidance, I don't think the retention rate for genuine novices is the greatest. Without anyone to help at all? They're gonna walk.
Unfortunately, the guild covenants haven't done anything better than collegium as far as catching novices goes. The Nekotai/Shadowdancer covenant, in my opinion, has only served to highlight the vast cultural gap between the two guilds. We don't have access to relevant help files, can't really answer questions about the other guild's skills, and are generally left with a feeling of intruding on each other's guild aethers.
Looking back over some of the ideas, I do like the idea of automating some of the more basic guild advancement tasks (though with 28 guilds, I'm not sure how possible that is.) I know that the Nekotai Rite of Idols is one of our most requested tasks, and the Shadowdancers just can't perform it. I think it'd be nice if at the appropriate time, a novice could go to a room, trigger an NPC, and have a nifty little interactive sequence play out for them before kicking them to the appropriate guild rank.
Um. Also, any chance of reviewing how the whole guild favor/rank system works? Guild covenants have the option to favor, which may or may not raise someone a rank, but as it is most guilds I've seen have a rigid "you must do this to be at this rank" setup so we can't go about throwing favors for minor tasks without upsetting someone. And when someone does advance, it can take two or three different people to bump someone up that rank.
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Guild membership fluxes. That's just the way things are. While there may now be a whole lot more guilds to try and fill up, combining some guilds aren't magically going to make them have a big enough membership to recreate these paths of old. The only way to reliably ensure that guilds are full of people and vitality is to ensure that the total playerbase itself grows. If anything, THAT is where we as players should be focusing our efforts. Not upon making arguments for vast changes in how the guilds of Lusternia function. It is very much a non-ideal solution to change the guild mechanic. There's a whole lot of identity that's going to just be washed out if that so happens.
And while I make no claims to speak on her behalf, I do not think Estarra believes that being a small guild makes it elite. Rather, she seems to be saying that if you are small, seize the opportunity of it and play yourself up as being elite. It reads to me as advice on how to make the best out of a bad situation, rather than worrying about a bad situation.
I feel I need to point out that that I specifically mentioned that the Moondancers were one of the biggest guilds at the time and then provided an example of what we used to consider a small guild. Which was potentially still larger than many of the current guilds.
Yes, guild membership fluxes. The big guilds will not always be so large, the small guilds might grow. However the simple fact is that, we were able to sustain these old things previously, and then over years the player base spread thin and we were unable to sustain them any more. When Hallifax and Gaudiguch first came out I remember there being an announcement stating that their guilds wouldn't come until they had the population to support them, now apparently they're comming regardless?
As I have mentioned previously, I generally tell everyone I meet that might even be vaguely interested in Lusternia about the game. I've even sat there and tried helping them through the early levels. I'm in a club with ~50 regulars who will sit there and play games non-stop for days, they'll play risk 2210 for eight hours (if they're going quick), we have a board games cabinet that has nothing by the parker brothers and has had to have its contents halved multiple times, and we run multiple pen and paper games (we had one this year where we were normal humans trying to fight Akaitera pokemon). Prime hunting grounds for new players for our games, with on acahaen exception they are uninterested in playing in the Iron Realms (Ironically a few were only interested in playing MUDs if we hosted our own and they had builder permissions).
And it's nice that you're concerned about identity, because that's what the people arguing for this seem to be concerned about, I know that I am. We can't pass on our identity because there is no one to pass it on, or to pass it on to. The solutions are to focus more on the commune or city, but this makes people feel that the guilds, their identity is less important and can be forgotten.
As to the comments about being elite and that it's not an issue, I'm sorry but every time I read something like that it feels like I'm telling someone to stop punching me because it hurts and they're telling me "No it doesn't"
I do think, however, that revamping the Ambassador position as mentioned earlier would be a nice bandage for the time being until some middle ground can be reached between 'this is a problem' and 'really there is no problem'.
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Well, think of it this way. If someone else in the org spends their time with the novice, it's very realistic to think the novice has a good chance to jump ship to that guild where they have happy, helpful people around rather than crickets on GNT. It ties back with the problem that big guilds tend to stay big because they have the people and time to invest in each novice that comes through and the lchance of them sticking around is much higher. Sure, we can add a bunch of auto advanacement, but how interesting is that. People don't stick around in a particular guild JUST to advance. There's intereaction and atmosphere by players that keep them around.
I think in theory that works, and I do try to push the "only the keenest of minds are worthy of Mother Night's blessing blah blah", it was even in my last guild post, but honestly...people aren't dumb. They know the guild is empty because people aren't joining because it's more fun somehwere else, not because Mother Night is a picky bitch. It's one of those things that if you push it, you kind of come across as wildly delusional or in denial.
I do understand a lot of it is stress I'm putting on myself, but when you sign up for GM, you are generally more commited to the success and prosperity of the guild than joe the gr3. You want to guild to grow, be intersting, flourish in RP...and whether you want to be or not, you are labeled the responsible party...and as they say, it takes a village, and a smart leader knows that the best a guild can be isn't the result of one person's work. Esentially I feel like I'm spinning my wheels in the mud as a GM. I mean, I'm proud of what I've done and the RP perspective that I've brought to Queen, but mechanically speaking...there's nothing for me to do. Revamp the convoluted advancement system? No one around to advance anyways. Add some stuff to the guildhall? We're small, and as such, we are poor. Train some combatants? Nope, it's just me. Personally I don't want to rob other guilds of novices because that's not really a solution to the greater percieved problem. It is just shifting the problem around momentarily.
I think what players want is not an immediate finger snap of a solution, we're realistic (or at least I am) and we get it's the end of the year and you have things already in your queue. What we want to do is explore options, and I think that even a general recognition of the problem, that there is a difference between "small and selective" and "can't even fill their leadership roles," would go a long way. I mean, simple (in idea, I have no idea about code) solutions for the short term like letting leaders fill multiple elected positions so they can at least do the actual job and long term idea like factions, automated guild advancement, or guild mergers.
**edit** Just as a note, guilds with dormant leaders can't kick high ranked people out, they ran into this with Munsia. Can't appoint security or secretaries depending on just how dormant they are. Some examples of mechanical issues that we run in to.
To address the issuse with too many positions, not enough leaders could we consolidate power into one position?
The guild master would remain and inherit all the bulk of the privileges that go with leading the guild. The guild champion and administrator could move to being a third teir on their respective ranks perhaps?
The gm could gain the ability to appoint protectors and undersecretaries, and a new priv... perhaps bequeath? Which allows them to promote a member of the security or secretary groups to the champ or admin position. This would give them any additional privileges they would need for the position. Maybe the process on either side could take a number of days during which members of the guild can chose to oppose or support the action?
So... Queen Celina is elected to her position, there are no other positions filled, at this time she has the Crown, the Shadow Archives, and the Ebon Orb. Because there is no one worthy of the princely titles she keeps the Archives and Orb. Over time she finds worthy undersecretaries and protectors, some of these prove themselves to be greater than the rest and they rise to the ranks of secretary and security. One secretary in particular impresses her, and so with great ceremony she bestows upon them the Shadow Archives and the title of Prince(ss) of Shadows, unfortunately none of the security have managed to truly impress her enough to be worthy of the orb and so she retains it, along with the privileges it offers her, awaiting a champion worthy of her and night.
Of course, this means that all the power is invested in one position and that could be bad, but primarily it would mean the champion/admin positions would only exist separately from the gm when needed.
I'd be fine with the GM getting powers of unfilled positions, BUT not them being able to appoint. All guild leadership positions should still have to be filled by vote. So, say there is no GC, then the GM temporarily gets their privs, but as soon as one is elected, it returns to how it was.
I see no issue with the GM holding all of the powers because they can be elected out of office. If the people don't like the power hungry GM, they step up and run against them.
I'd be fine with that as well... but the real issue would come is when there isn't a GM... should the GA get the privs that the GM has related to them, and the GC the privs related to them?
I'm not sure "going with it" is really an option for several guilds right now. I mean, the only reason the SDs will have a GA is because the GM of another guild (you) were guilt tripped and moved. Our previoud GA phased in and out of activity for a long time. The GC is barely a combatant, I'm pretty sure the GC before him didn't have a system. We're managing, but we're what I would call barely scraping by with the absolute minimum. We have active and experienced leaders (all 3 have been GMs at one point) so we'll push through...but it just kind of sucks that if we are honest about it, it's kind of as good as it's going to get for a long while.
The crappiest part is a few guilds (more than one) have it even worse and aren't even managing to fill their leadership positions with active people over very long periods of time. Daedalion was institute GC for months and months and months, and when was the last time that guy even logged on, much less fought someone. Maybe if it was isolated, but it's not. It's a few guilds, and it's kind of a recurring trend. I mean, you can't even find a combatant, much less a champion worthy one, in every guild. I feel like that's a pretty big indication of a population problem. Most guilds seriously have their one token combatant.
That being said, I like that guild alliance thing idea. It's kind of like factions but allows the players to kind of blend things more thematically (BT and SDs probably not going to work out). The guilds could keep their identities, but merge a bit and share a channel so it's not crickets all the time.
I do like the semi-merge idea (letting the guilds remain distinct, but able to do things like help out with favours and the like). It's a way to keep the separation Estarra wants while letting us address things from a player standpoint.
Depending on how it is implemented and handled it does have a fair bit of potential, and it might help alleviate the 'not my guild, not my problem' issue. Especially if ambassadors and their aides are given more direct control over helping out novices, as well.
Throw into this the ability for us to set lesson plans for guild tutors that they can offer to teach newblets (maybe even at a faster speed, so the tutor can do all 65 lessons of knighthood in one go), and you have a more robust system available for small guilds to take advantage of.
This idea is amazing and a mechanical compromise Estarra was looking for
Not trying to be snarky, just give the perspective of a "newcomer" which was one of the big concerns of this discussion.
"But paradise is locked and bolted...
We must make a journey around the world
to see if a back door has perhaps been left open."
-Heinrich Von Kleist, "On the Puppet Theater"
Now, in my bitter cynical-ness I could give you other valid reasons not to try Lusternia, but definitely don't count a toxic population among them.
"But paradise is locked and bolted...
We must make a journey around the world
to see if a back door has perhaps been left open."
-Heinrich Von Kleist, "On the Puppet Theater"