Undervault politics

Arcanis

Im going to try to make this to the point and not drag on with it. I've tried submitting issues, ideas, even messages but it seems to not be getting anywhere, so I will just post it to the forums.

politics illithoid
********************POLITICS OF THE ILLITHOID PRISONERS********************
         Sphere of Influence:
              Village Leader: Cthoglogg, the High Ritualist
                  Serenwilde: Neutral
                  Glomdoring: Neutral
                      Celest: Neutral
                   Magnagora: Neutral
                   Gaudiguch: Neutral
                    Hallifax: Neutral
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


politics Kephera
***********************POLITICS OF THE KEPHERA HIVES***********************
         Sphere of Influence:
              Village Leader: Hive Queen Imhohet
                  Serenwilde: Neutral
                  Glomdoring: Neutral
                      Celest: Neutral
                   Magnagora: Neutral
                   Gaudiguch: Neutral
                    Hallifax: Neutral
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



As you can see, the 'political' leadership for Illithoid has been placed as Cthoglogg, which as some of you know, is the 'Big Boss' that requires quite the long quest to summon. His counter  is Zenobia to the Kephera, however she isnt the political leader of the Kephera, thus making it much more easier to settle relations with them by simply seeking out Imhohet.

The problem is that Cthoglogg is not always alive, as is currently the case, meaning anyone that is seeking to be unenemied to the Illithoids can't be until Cthoglogg is raised. Additionally, to add to this problem, if someone was seeking to raise Cthoglogg, they would have to not be an enemy to the illithoids to begin with....Thus, creating an unsolvable paradox for an individual.

Can we please have the political leadership of the Illithoid changed to another so that those allied with the illithoid have the chance as well?



Suggestions for political leadership:

- High Priest Yishughom, located within illithoid prison. In charge of the faith within the prison, he is a good possible candidate.

- Overseer Yishign, within the Cyaethl Colony (though a colony of its own, they are still all loyal to Illithoid prison). Yishign's Colony exists outside of the prison, and is perhaps, aside from Ixthiaxa (which frankly is a village to itself), the only illithoid colony that has managed such. Since that is the case, it would be plausible to assume that she is the bridge that connects players to the Illithoid prison.

- Create a new mob in the Prison, perhaps something along the lines of Keeper of the Temple or High General of the Empress. This individual could be used as the political leader.

Lerad

Technically, Imhohet can also be perma-dead, with the same consequences. Although if I really wanted unenemying to the Keph, I could get a mask and complete the quests as needed, and it's easier to raise Imhohet than Zenobia.

It would be a good idea to shift the unenemying to the attendant at the Imhohet place as well, since he already handles turning in Illithoid corpses, might as well.

Maligorn

Definitely support High Priest Yishughom for being the new diplomatic of the Illithoid Prison. Imhohet (and any Queen really) is hella easy to raise anyway -- even if the Undervault is all the way to Cthoglogg empowered.

Lerad

The problem, Maligorn, if you'd read the OP post, is that someone who wants to get unenemied probably won't be able to do the quest to raise the Queen. Not everyone has an awesome skillset like Stealth.

Maligorn

So ask someone else who is not enemied to help you. Lusternia is a social game like that.

Marcella

too bad the entire northern alliance doesn't have stealth then

Maligorn

I don't get your point. The northern alliance wouldn't want to be doing anything with illithoid anyway, and there are plenty of people northside that -aren't- enemied to illithoid that can parley with gold or influence (except for the fact that Cthoglogg can be put out of commission more permanently than Imhohet, which is the problem that I agree needs to be changed).

Lerad

Cthoglogg can be put out of commission just as permanently as Imhohet. Not more, not less.

Cthoglogg cannot be as easily put back up into commission as Imhohet.

There is a marked difference.

It certainly is easier to put her up. That doesn't remove the fact that the fundamental problem: a person can be locked out of putting her up because of enemyship, and locked out of unenemying because she's dead, is the same as that faced by those who wish to get unenemied to the Illithoids.

I have no personal stake in the matter, since I have no intention of getting unenemied to the Kephera, nor enemied to the Illithoid. It just simply is a similar problem that can be resolved at the same time as that faced by enemies to the Illithoid, since this topic was brought up. There is not only no reason not to do so, there's a compelling argument to actually fix it at the same time: the compelling argument being the same argument that is being made for a change to Cthoglogg. I whole-heartedly agree that people who wish to get unenemied (or even just amnestied) to the Illithoids for whatever reason, should be able to do so even while Cthoglogg is in one of his perma-dead periods. Same goes for the Kepheran side. If you're a north-side person who just happens to be enemied to the Keph when Imhohet is perma-dead... well, you shouldn't have to stay that way indefinitely until someone else raises her for you - easier as it may be than to raise Cthoglogg.

Maligorn

Unless it's something I've never, ever seen before (and I've seen Cthoglogg empowered with all 5 of the organs outside and things like that), Imhohet can never be perma-dead unless there are people actively taking quest items away.

Lerad

One thing to note, Cthoglogg fully empowered (and thus, all the queens perma-dead) is certainly something that has happened before, and quite many times indeed. The current Zenobia's reign is not yet as long as some of the previous Cthoglogg/Zenobia reigns. Both sides have been raised (and fully empowered) multiple times in just the time I've been playing. In fact, I've personally raised and empowered him more than once before.

Second, "perma-dead" means not-respawning. That Imhohet can be in a status where she is dead and don't respawn unless you do her quest, which you can't do unless you're unenemied, is the potential problem. (I'm actually not sure if that's the case, but I do believe so, given what I know of the quest). Same as the problem described for Cthoglogg - you can't do the quest to raise him unless you're unenemied... and you need him to get unenemied. "Perma-dead" doesn't mean "never alive". If that's the definition, Cthoglogg can never be perma-dead either.

Lastly, as a slightly less relevant note, it's also much easier to kill Imhohet than to kill Cthoglogg. I can solo her without needing to go dwarf.

Maligorn

Oh -- I see what you're saying now. You had me confused with your definition of perma-dead.

What I understand, though, is that Cthoglogg can't even be raised while Zenobia is up, while Queens -can- be raised while Cthoglogg is up and empowered. Is this true?

EDIT: If it is not true, then all that needs to happen is someone not enemied to the illithoid be told what to do to raise Cthoglogg, and then get the unenemying sorted out. That's something that doesn't need fixing.

Marcella

So you'd rather it continue being the case where unless you get someone unrelated to you to do a long, tedious epic quest for you for the sole purpose of you getting able to influence a mob to get unenemied (which you could do yourself, if it wasn't for the fact YOU WERE ENEMIED), and to have this only be the case for one side since the other side's leader is one of the much less important things that gets raised much quicker.

Got it.

Maligorn

I don't know what you're thinking, but you don't have to do the entire epic quest just to make Cthoglogg available (unless you do, which, for the third time, I'm supporting that change if it's actually valid). Moreover, you can help out by slaying relevant things and leaving the influencing to the person that's not enemied.

In other words, raising Cthoglogg =/= empowering Cthoglogg.

Lerad

I'm not as familiar with the Keph side of the quest, so you'll need someone else for the exact details of when the Queens can be raised. It's entirely possible they can be raised even when Cthog is fully empowered. Pretty sure you'll need at least the Neferti Queen to break the dark web, so she should be raisable while Cthog is alive. Not sure about the rest.

Cthog cannot be raised until after the seal is broken, which requires Zenobia's death to perform.

The problem, however, isn't that Cthog can't be raised before Zenobia's death - the problem is that you can't perform the actual quest to raise him, Zenobia dead or not, without being unenemied to the Illithoids in the first place. Which is also the same problem faced by those seeking to get unenemied to the Kephera while the Imhohet Queen isn't respawning. This is the crux - if there's nothing wrong with this, then there's no need to make a new NPC for the Illithoid side either, no matter if it's easy or difficult to raise Cthog - because that's the same thing faced by the Kepheran side.

Arcanis said:

...
The problem is that Cthoglogg is not always alive, as is currently the case, meaning anyone that is seeking to be unenemied to the Illithoids can't be until Cthoglogg is raised. Additionally, to add to this problem, if someone was seeking to raise Cthoglogg, they would have to not be an enemy to the illithoids to begin with....Thus, creating an unsolvable paradox for an individual.
...

I think it's fair to say that it shouldn't be easy to get unenemied... but neither should it be mechanically impossible. Perhaps the debate here is whether or not requiring another person to do a quest before you can perform the amnesty (or parley) is considered reasonable or not. Should you be literally forced to get help, not because your character is not strong enough to bash (or influence) a mob alone, but because you actually cannot do it even if you were? Arcanis apparently thinks that this shouldn't be the case, and I'm inclined to agree with him.

Maligorn

Any Queen can be raised at any time. Source: I was the one who raised Zenobia last, albeit on a different character.

If Cthog can't be raised until Zenobia is dead + seal broken (restoring the Undervault to a relatively "neutral" state in terms of kephera vs. illithoid), then that's a problem that needs fixing. High Priest Yishughom, even though she respawns, should be able to handle enemyings. Or we could make Cthoglogg raise-able even while Zenobia is alive. (<-- most ideal).

The reason I'm opposed to deferring politics to a respawning kephera is because I feel like it's an incentive for a prospective person that wants to be unenemied to start fixing things in the Undervault. It is -really- a simple matter to direct someone how to go about raising a Queen, and you can help out by killing things things that need killing or gathering things that need gathering in the tunnels. Moreover, Imhohet being the politics leader means that someone who is firmly an antagoniser of kephera (or in an org of such) but is seeking amnesty for whatever reason should be having serious difficulty doing it on their own, as you said. The analog being, it should be plenty easy to direct someone on how to raise Cthoglogg.

Lerad said:

 Perhaps the debate here is whether or not requiring another person to do a quest before you can perform the amnesty (or parley) is considered reasonable or not. Should you be literally forced to get help, not because your character is not strong enough to bash (or influence) a mob alone, but because you actually cannot do it even if you were? Arcanis apparently thinks that this shouldn't be the case, and I'm inclined to agree with him.

And I, simply, disagree. If Arcanis (or anyone) is such a pariah that he can't ask around for someone who is competent and unenemied to the kephera for aide, then that's his lot.

Lerad

Maligorn said:

...
The analog being, it should be plenty easy to direct someone on how to raise Cthoglogg.
...

If this analog is held, then there's no reason for a different mob than Cthoglogg to handle enemyings to the Illithoid either, because, as you said, it's plenty easy to direct someone to perform the quests needed. Specifically in this case, on how to kill Zenobia, break the seal and raise Cthoglogg too. There's therefore no problem with this problem:

Maligorn said:

...
If Cthog can't be raised until Zenobia is dead + seal broken (restoring the Undervault to a relatively "neutral" state in terms of kephera vs. illithoid), then that's a problem that needs fixing. High Priest Yishughom, even though she respawns, should be able to handle enemyings. Or we could make Cthoglogg raise-able even while Zenobia is alive. (<-- most ideal).
...

It is just as possible to make Imhohet non-respawning the same way Cthog is non-respawning. If getting someone else to do a quest (while you help with running errands and stuff that doesn't need interaction) is acceptable for someone seeking to get unenemied to the Kephera... why is that a problem for someone seeking to get unenemied to the Illithoid? Just like raising Imhohet, it's simply a matter of directing them to the steps, in fact, even just handing them the quest items while you do all the work.

If you disagree, that's fine by me. Like I said, I have no stake in the matter. But if it is logically unsound to support "deferring politics to a respawning kephera", then the rationale to defer the same kind of politics to a respawning illithoid is similarly compromised.

Maligorn

It is, which is ultimately why I think Cthoglogg should A. be raiseable at any point of the Undervault epic and B. not respawn when killed and thus C. remain the politics leader.

Lerad

There's just a slight discrepancy there. I'm all for making the Illithoid quest easier (disclaimer: in this I DO have a personal stake) but there's no reason why making Cthoglogg raiseable at any point will...resolve the problem Arcanis described in the OP. In that case, there is simply no need for any kind of change.

Synkarin

If Cthog is empowered, you can't raise the dark web queens, but Imhohet isn't part of that group

Whatever the solution, it's got to be the same for both sides.

Moi

Why not let people get amnesty from Enoth-Golosha and Khekameti?

Ssaliss

>-----------------------------------------------[ Changelog Entry #450 ]-----------------------------------------------<
   Entered by: Estarra the Eternal                                                          Date: 2014-11-21 18:45:59
   o Illithoid Prisoners consider both Cthoglogg and Yishughom as leaders
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<

>-----------------------------------------------[ Changelog Entry #451 ]-----------------------------------------------<
   Entered by: Estarra the Eternal                                                          Date: 2014-11-21 18:46:00
   o Kephera Hives consider both Zenobia and Imhohet as leaders
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<

Congrats

Siam

Guys, rejoice:

>---------------------------[ Changelog Entry #450 ]--------------------------<

Entered by: Estarra the Eternal Date: 2014-11-21 18:45:59

 

o Illithoid Prisoners consider both Cthoglogg and Yishughom as leaders

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<

>---------------------------[ Changelog Entry #451 ]--------------------------<

Entered by: Estarra the Eternal Date: 2014-11-21 18:46:00

 

o Kephera Hives consider both Zenobia and Imhohet as leaders

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<

Arcanis

d'aww posted before me.


Thank you very much @Estarra. This is a huge help.

Arcanis

Asking for a conciliation of yourself, you give 120000 gold to High Priest Yishughom.
High Priest Yishughom accepts the offer and grants you full reprieve.


yay ^^

Ssaliss

>-----------------------------------------------[ Changelog Entry #452 ]-----------------------------------------------<
   Entered by: Estarra the Eternal                                                          Date: 2014-11-21 18:55:12
   o Kephera Hive considers both Zenobia and King Imhatatep as leaders
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<

Lerad

Yeah, for a moment I was confused at why it was Zenobia and Imhohet, since that didn't solve the problem either. Changing it to the King meant it became a respawning mob that is also fairly tough to influence - forgot about how easy the attendant would be to influence.

Shaddus

While I do complain a lot about admin sometimes, they obviously pay attention to the forums.