Experience Loss

12346

Comments

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Riluna said:


    The administration have stated that the entire point of the extra essence loss is entirely due to deterring raiding.  It has nothing to do with being an essence sink.  You are the only one who seems to think it does, and you are basing your entire case as to whether or not the administration would even consider changing it based on this assumption-- which you cling to, despite it just not being accurate.


    My emphasis. Extra essence loss, not any essence loss. And to me, essence = experience. How is it not? 

    Phoenix costs more than the 50k. Praying costs more than the 50k. I haven't paid attention to actual cost is to be rezzed, though it is decidedly less. But it's not really just 50k? The loss, that it disappears from the game, is the very definition of a "sink," is it not? You have to play that much more, just to get it back.

    Look at so many of the promotions over the last few years, especially the "log in every day ones". Even when it's trivial to you, the admin just love any excuse for us to play that much more. Even if it's five minutes more a day. Recovering what you've lost, even if you can min/max to reduce and make it trivial, is exactly the kind of thing they're constantly promoting. Why would they let this one go?
    You cannot use experience to buy things.  You can use essence to buy things.

    Experience levels you up.  Essence does not.

    They are, on a very fundamental basis, two separate things.  They are earned the same way, sure, but that's where the similarity ends; their purpose is entirely different as far as game mechanics go.

    If you get rezzed, the cost is the initial 50k of the death.  There is no additional cost.  You lose 50k for dying (plus org enemy territory fees, if any are applicable).  That's it, period.  You only lose more if you don't take advantage of the various rez abilities to bypass that.

    To the last paragraph: Why wouldn't they?  If they make people want to go essence-hunting to buy more abilities / swap abilities, they're getting more than their 5 minutes of activity.  There's just no reason to cling to the notion that a death penalty must be an essence / experience hit, especially not as hard as you are doing so.  It would be far better to have an open mind here, instead of starting an argument saying that "something is never going to happen" when there's no indication that it is even true (and actually has been indication in the past to the contrary).
    image
  • You cannot use experience to buy things.  You can use essence to buy things.

    Experience levels you up.  Essence does not.

    Last thing, I guess, is that this is entirely a difference of semantics, and that's it. They're exactly the same thing. When you "level up" you get stronger, eventually get more powers/more powerful. The exact same thing as when you buy stuff with essence, excepting only that with essence you have more discretion about how exactly you're getting stronger, and what powers you get.

    And you can lose both, involuntarily. No difference, except in what we call it.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Riluna said:

    You cannot use experience to buy things.  You can use essence to buy things.

    Experience levels you up.  Essence does not.


    Last thing, I guess, is that this is entirely a difference of semantics, and that's it. They're exactly the same thing. When you "level up" you get stronger, eventually get more powers/more powerful. The exact same thing as when you buy stuff with essence, excepting only that with essence you have more discretion about how exactly you're getting stronger, and what powers you get.

    And you can lose both, involuntarily. No difference, except in what we call it.
    When you level up, you get more lessons, health, mana, and ego.  You do not, however, have any ability to spend your experience to buy new abilities.  Experience is not a resource.  There's nothing to spend it on, it doesn't fuel anything, it just makes you stronger.

    Essence is a resource.  You can generate it, you can spend it, you can use it to fuel abilities.  There are so many things that you can do with it that it really is its own unique mechanic, divorced from experience.  They share a similarity in how they are gained, and you lose some when you die, but that's about it.  Otherwise, they really are two different things.
    image
  • Essence has more similarity with Gold than it does with Experience.
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Until you lose it all, then it is painfully more like Experience than it is Gold.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • Shedrin said:

    One problem might be that the only 'official' objective of raids is to kill NPCs. Perhaps somehow there can more mechanical encouragement to fight with enemy players (and especially good combatants). I don't have any good ideas for that, though.


    I've thought over this concept before, and another option would be to simply remove the whole "protecting your loyals" task that players feel forced with. Before the the heavy-handed increase to essence deaths in enemy areas, the main annoyance with enemies raiding was the constant screams for help on the Org channels by the loyals (angels, demons, crystals, fleshlings), and anyone playing up to their class theme or a loyalist would feel almost forced to try and protect them, or just block the screams out. Truth be told, I never knew why the Nihilists and Celestians would have to hear the wails of every damn imp/cherub, deva/fiend...rather irksome.


    Why not simply remove the loyal concept? Let the realms still have angels/demons/etc and players can attempt to slay them. The power drain per loyal killed would have to also be removed. Naturally a balance would have to be met so that players dont try to free-farm them for kicks. Creatures on cosmic planes would have to be increased in strength and possibly some new features implanted, such as a swarm of imps appearing to defend a demonic creature. Naturally if an enemy is sensed on the plane, they can be assaulted. This could actually become rather fun and give players motivations to try and 'invade' enemy realms. Naturally supermobs would still call out to their order.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Arcanis said:

    Shedrin said:

    One problem might be that the only 'official' objective of raids is to kill NPCs. Perhaps somehow there can more mechanical encouragement to fight with enemy players (and especially good combatants). I don't have any good ideas for that, though.


    I've thought over this concept before, and another option would be to simply remove the whole "protecting your loyals" task that players feel forced with. Before the the heavy-handed increase to essence deaths in enemy areas, the main annoyance with enemies raiding was the constant screams for help on the Org channels by the loyals (angels, demons, crystals, fleshlings), and anyone playing up to their class theme or a loyalist would feel almost forced to try and protect them, or just block the screams out. Truth be told, I never knew why the Nihilists and Celestians would have to hear the wails of every damn imp/cherub, deva/fiend...rather irksome.


    Why not simply remove the loyal concept? Let the realms still have angels/demons/etc and players can attempt to slay them. The power drain per loyal killed would have to also be removed. Naturally a balance would have to be met so that players dont try to free-farm them for kicks. Creatures on cosmic planes would have to be increased in strength and possibly some new features implanted, such as a swarm of imps appearing to defend a demonic creature. Naturally if an enemy is sensed on the plane, they can be assaulted. This could actually become rather fun and give players motivations to try and 'invade' enemy realms. Naturally supermobs would still call out to their order.
    The mechanic of CONFIG LOYALSAYS OFF still exists should you not feel the need to defend your plane. Beyond that, attackers walking in on your plane and going on a killing spree can easily be an early warning to go and set up defenses for your supermobs. Additionally, being that loyal critters don't have a mechanic to be removed, them not shouting for help is just a case of enemies repeatedly draining your nexus without you having any way to know they're doing it/stop them besides checking powerlogs repeatedly to see the drain happening. Definitely disagree with your recommendation.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Elanorwen said:

    Arcanis said:

    Shedrin said:

    One problem might be that the only 'official' objective of raids is to kill NPCs. Perhaps somehow there can more mechanical encouragement to fight with enemy players (and especially good combatants). I don't have any good ideas for that, though.


    I've thought over this concept before, and another option would be to simply remove the whole "protecting your loyals" task that players feel forced with. Before the the heavy-handed increase to essence deaths in enemy areas, the main annoyance with enemies raiding was the constant screams for help on the Org channels by the loyals (angels, demons, crystals, fleshlings), and anyone playing up to their class theme or a loyalist would feel almost forced to try and protect them, or just block the screams out. Truth be told, I never knew why the Nihilists and Celestians would have to hear the wails of every damn imp/cherub, deva/fiend...rather irksome.


    Why not simply remove the loyal concept? Let the realms still have angels/demons/etc and players can attempt to slay them. The power drain per loyal killed would have to also be removed. Naturally a balance would have to be met so that players dont try to free-farm them for kicks. Creatures on cosmic planes would have to be increased in strength and possibly some new features implanted, such as a swarm of imps appearing to defend a demonic creature. Naturally if an enemy is sensed on the plane, they can be assaulted. This could actually become rather fun and give players motivations to try and 'invade' enemy realms. Naturally supermobs would still call out to their order.
    The mechanic of CONFIG LOYALSAYS OFF still exists should you not feel the need to defend your plane. Beyond that, attackers walking in on your plane and going on a killing spree can easily be an early warning to go and set up defenses for your supermobs. Additionally, being that loyal critters don't have a mechanic to be removed, them not shouting for help is just a case of enemies repeatedly draining your nexus without you having any way to know they're doing it/stop them besides checking powerlogs repeatedly to see the drain happening. Definitely disagree with your recommendation.
    Note that such places already exist (consider Night / Moon bubbles, where the mobs aren't loyal to the org but by RP should be).

    Nobody bothers defending these places, really.  I think it'd be a shame if places like Nil / Celestia / EthGlom were treated the same way.
    image
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Xenthos said:

    Elanorwen said:

    Arcanis said:

    Shedrin said:

    One problem might be that the only 'official' objective of raids is to kill NPCs. Perhaps somehow there can more mechanical encouragement to fight with enemy players (and especially good combatants). I don't have any good ideas for that, though.


    I've thought over this concept before, and another option would be to simply remove the whole "protecting your loyals" task that players feel forced with. Before the the heavy-handed increase to essence deaths in enemy areas, the main annoyance with enemies raiding was the constant screams for help on the Org channels by the loyals (angels, demons, crystals, fleshlings), and anyone playing up to their class theme or a loyalist would feel almost forced to try and protect them, or just block the screams out. Truth be told, I never knew why the Nihilists and Celestians would have to hear the wails of every damn imp/cherub, deva/fiend...rather irksome.


    Why not simply remove the loyal concept? Let the realms still have angels/demons/etc and players can attempt to slay them. The power drain per loyal killed would have to also be removed. Naturally a balance would have to be met so that players dont try to free-farm them for kicks. Creatures on cosmic planes would have to be increased in strength and possibly some new features implanted, such as a swarm of imps appearing to defend a demonic creature. Naturally if an enemy is sensed on the plane, they can be assaulted. This could actually become rather fun and give players motivations to try and 'invade' enemy realms. Naturally supermobs would still call out to their order.
    The mechanic of CONFIG LOYALSAYS OFF still exists should you not feel the need to defend your plane. Beyond that, attackers walking in on your plane and going on a killing spree can easily be an early warning to go and set up defenses for your supermobs. Additionally, being that loyal critters don't have a mechanic to be removed, them not shouting for help is just a case of enemies repeatedly draining your nexus without you having any way to know they're doing it/stop them besides checking powerlogs repeatedly to see the drain happening. Definitely disagree with your recommendation.
    Note that such places already exist (consider Night / Moon bubbles, where the mobs aren't loyal to the org but by RP should be).

    Nobody bothers defending these places, really.  I think it'd be a shame if places like Nil / Celestia / EthGlom were treated the same way.
    Yeah, not sure what to say about Night/Moon. Perhaps have it looked into... then again, I'm also assuming they don't get raided very often either.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited May 2015
    The problem there was that it's so isolated that you'd have no reason to suspect that enemies were up there. By the time they got around to kicking a mob, they'd have a fully entrenched demesne, with a shrine and (for a time, before it was changed) seduced Moon Ladies. Basically, you'd only start to raid once it wasn't anything like a real fight and Moon was transformed into a killbox. With no saferoom to pop up and group in, it was hard to muster up and push out invaders to the literal physical manifestation of one of the forest's Great Spirits. Replace Moon with Night to get the other side.

    Basically: No one really bothered defending the before the loyalsays thing anyways, because it was redic.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice
    Allehnon said:

    Raise the cost of Demi-powers if people will suddenly have a pool of unused essence.


    The Admin are smart people I am sure they can find ways for us to spend essence.
    Uhm. No.
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • edited May 2015
    I've read this entire thread now and I still don't understand what you guys are actually arguing about. Do you want less raiding or more raiding? It seems like there's more than one conversation going on at a time.

    Gaudi, for example, gives credits for pretty much anything. I sat around at a village influence (which we lost) and got toaded & stomped in the end. I got a credit + a CF for it. That's plenty of incentive to participate for me right there. And you don't need the admin for that.

    How about this:

    - People dying in their own orgs territory to other players, to player aggression (bleeding etc) or to mobs loyal to other players will only lose experience for the first x deaths within y timeframe. For example 3 deaths in 3 hours. Anything beyond that that will cost no experience.

    - People raiding will start accumulating "bad karma" after killing a person more often than x times in y timeframe. Bad karma basically being penalties, whatever they are. Heck, could be karma curses or whatnot.

    Maybe make it even not a general hardcoded effect but a discretionary power.


    It's just a rough idea, numbers are picked randomly and not meant as a recommendation. What I don't know is how this might affect smob fights..

    ----

    Generally I think people who feel like they -must- defend should relax. What serious harm can a single raider really do to your org? Probably little to none. Sure, play a zealot but even zealots are living and feeling beings. Not even IC I see a reason why you'd have to rush in there if you know you'll just constantly die. It's pointless, right? No one says your character can't reach that conclusion and react accordingly.

    Personally, I think short, simple raids should be cheap, both for the raider and the defender. It's the constant sitting there for hours when you know it's only the odd novice on the other side who can't win.. that's not good. Especially since that defender could be doing things they enjoy rather then comforting your hawt ego.

    /2cent

  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    How about no xp loss ever, give us more ways to have conflict outside raiding? No, not domoths, or villages.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    About CONFIG LOYALSAYS OFF -- don't some guilds require you to keep it on?
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Everiine said:

    About CONFIG LOYALSAYS OFF -- don't some guilds require you to keep it on?

    Yep.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    lol, guild rules.  If they can't prove you have it off, then what's it matter?  Besides, someone always announces on CT or GT that X is under attack.  So...yeah.  
    image
  • Everiine said:

    About CONFIG LOYALSAYS OFF -- don't some guilds require you to keep it on?

    Frankly if you have it off and you're ignoring screams, then it just shows you are uncaring to the beings tied to your guild, which is basically a bad image for anyone in a guardian guild.
  • TremulaTremula Banished Quasiroyal
    Arcanis said:



    Frankly if you have it off and you're ignoring screams, then it just shows you are uncaring to the beings tied to your guild, which is basically a bad image for anyone in a guardian guild.

    Arcanis said:

    Truth be told, I never knew why the Nihilists and Celestians would have to hear the wails of every damn imp/cherub, deva/fiend...rather irksome.


    image
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • Still not a fan of a death timer. It just doesn't seem like a workable solution.

    a) It either needs to be long enough to at some point stop the raider from returning or it isn't a deterrent.

    b) If the raider is going to return, then the defenders now have to wait out the death timer along with the person. This adds no fun for either party.

    c) As the death timer gets longer it encourages people to just go afk to wait it out (which is the result in every other game I ever played with long death waits) or to log out and do something else. Neither seems ideal.

    If the goal is to reduce or limit continuous org raiding, why not just make a mechanic that does exactly what is needed instead of trying to shove an existing mechanic into serving a purpose it wasn't designed for?

    Think less essence/xp loss and more like we do with bubbles where you simply cannot enter. Imagine that it takes something to even enter enemy territory. This 'something' recovers over time, but each time you enter it uses up a 'chunk' of 'it'.

    Not only does something like this address raiding, bit would also address kick and run, and constantly moving from territory to territory.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    If you went with something like that, it really only ought to be consumed if you attack a loyal in that area, or if you're attacked/die.  Mostly because if I feel like going and gathering essence from all the planes, and I'm enemied to all of them, well...even if I'm not raiding, having my chunk of something taken each time I pop onto a plane would suck.
    image
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Doesn't having 'something' preventing entry really just do the same thing as extending the death timer, the only difference being that the raider can go do other things rather than wait out the death timer? 

    I think there should be some negative effect besides 'preventing further raiding' for dying not only in enemy territory, but in general. If you die, it should have a punishment, to discourage you from dying.



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    I don't really understand the "forces people to go afk," argument. As opposed to forcing people to go afk/semi afk while they influence guards and bash astral to regain the 2 million they lost? 
    image
  • Maligorn said:

    Bunp. What are your thoughts on these ideas, Estarra @Baelor .

    The Overhaul's main goal to reduce afflictions is nice and all, but I'm pretty sure one of the secondary objectives is to improve novice retention. I think that looking into XP loss would be really productive towards achieving that goal.

    Giving this a reply purely so it doesn't feel ignored.

    Right now my primary focus in this overhaul is getting through the main goals of it, between the racial/buff rebalance and knighthood/internal affliction changes and other non-overhaul related things xp loss is very low on my list of priorities.

    Granted once this is all done it's a topic that I, personally, would like to revisit as it encompasses various different strings of conversation. But it's up to Estarra whether she wants to address it or not.


    For now I'll say this, death has to matter, no matter where you are or what you're doing, if you die there needs to be a set back, otherwise players don't see dying as an inconvenience. Mortals, even Demigods are not beyond the reach of the Fates. Strictly speaking one would only make so many trips to the weave before they decide it's better to just snip you out of existence if you kept shuffling off the mortal coil.

    Anything you come up with, remember this as a ground rule. Dying has to be a negative worth encouraging a player to not die in future, but not so punishing as to make them risk averse to the point they choose to not engage (based purely on the experience of death) in the game's various functions.
  • edited May 2015
    I don't understand the "afk" response as a reason not to do a death timer.

    So what if a death timer promotes you going afk for a couple minutes to wait it out? 

    Most people who are involved in combat could probably due with a potty break and a mountain dew top up, and this gives them a legitimate time to do it.

    The best thing about wipes in WoW is the fact that you can run and get your snacks and take a pee.

    Edit:: A little perspective... I can't conglutinate, only Pray or Rez. The prayer timer right now is enough for me to think twice about going back to die again. The xp loss doesn't deter me, it's the timeout till I can play again that does. Adjusting the death timer based on how many times you die in enemy territory is definitely going to make someone think twice... and let them go pee.
  • Allehnon said:


    So what if a death timer promotes you going afk for a couple minutes to wait it out? 

    Exactly. If it is a couple of minutes it really isn't a deterrent. If it is a half hour or more, why even play?
  • If someone is raiding so much that they have got their death timer up to 30+ minutes, then I would argue that the timer is working as intended.

    It is your choice to how many times you die and how long you are going to risk your timer being. If you want to sit out of the game for 30+ minutes then that is completely on you.
  • Synkarin said:

    Doesn't having 'something' preventing entry really just do the same thing as extending the death timer, the only difference being that the raider can go do other things rather than wait out the death timer? 

    I think there should be some negative effect besides 'preventing further raiding' for dying not only in enemy territory, but in general. If you die, it should have a punishment, to discourage you from dying.


    The meaning of death can be the meaning of death wherever it happens. Additional negative effects can be added if needed. But if the point is to make it so that people or a group don't serial raid (which actually happens on occasional now), there needs to be something that prevents that, which ideally doesn't lock the player out from doing things which aren't doing that which you want to prevent.

    There are different types of players. Some players are at the point where they're just here for the pk. We might say those players don't see pk as an interruption. For them, if they are waiting for the raider to 'respawn' they may not care that there's 5, 10, 30 minutes down time. There are also players who want to do other things and view long drawn out PK as 'guard duty', some of them find it interesting, others less so.

    I don't see how a 'dead timer' gets the game to a deterrent without being an onerous mechanic. Unless someone is one of those players who mostly is just waiting for pk to happen.
  • If a death timer is so hard to get on board with, then make it an extended Grace timer. You can still do things, you just can't get involved in hostile actions until your Grace timer ends. The more you die in enemy territory the longer you sit under grace preventing you from continuing on.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    The death timer is not aimed at deterring one-man raids, it's intended to make it increasingly more difficult for an enemy force to camp, as any deaths they suffer will hurt them (and break up their group) more than defender deaths. Other measures would be required to curb 'annoyance' raids. I really don't favor the idea of flat locking people out of planes though.
  • Allehnon said:

    If a death timer is so hard to get on board with, then make it an extended Grace timer. You can still do things, you just can't get involved in hostile actions until your Grace timer ends. The more you die in enemy territory the longer you sit under grace preventing you from continuing on.

    I think that's the best implementation of the idea.
Sign In or Register to comment.