Justice Seal Events.

Arcanis

Since an upcoming Ascension is not too far off, I wished to bring up one of the problems (yes I know Ascension comes with many an issue as is) that I've seen with Ascension.


The Justice seal event is based completely upon the mechanics of Debating, which anyone can point out is based on a rock-paper-scissors concept which roughly translates to luck of the draw. It is one of the least interesting (If debatable least of all) of the ascension events and frankly cannot compare to the others. I feel that Justice got the short end of the stick here, and is a mockery of attaining a seal. Couldnt we replace it with a true event? One that requires skill and prowess of some function (Yes, debating does not require it)? Or at least the debating mechanics get some form of makeover.

If any have any suggestions for how to make this event actually mean something, please post below.

Rivius

Rock-paper-scissors and uneven stat distributions

Shuyin

Most of the ascension events could use updating, some more than others.

Justice should be a multiple debate/psychodrama/vengeance/unused game IMO

Need to inject some freshness into the yearly gankfest.

Arcanis

A Psychodrama would be hilariously interesting, not to mention a fresh take on things. I personally wouldnt mind if that became the competition, but I am not sure how that ties to Justice's realm.

Synkarin

Debating is fine and does require a certain set of skills. 

People in general will follow patterns, patterns that can be picked up on. 

There are also debate afflictions and attitudes and other skills that can weigh heavily on how much ego damage you are doing. Some people have been known to sit on a mindset for a bit waiting for an attack, then switch it up and hit someone for big hits to finish them off. There are a variety of tactics to employ and it isn't simply the rock/papers/scissors method you are saying it is.

It's kind of like poker, where you have to consider what you have vs what you think your opponent has vs what they think you have vs what you think they think you have etc.

Munsia

Yes it is...you just described rock paper scissors if it had a more than 1 shot go. 

Synkarin

The point is, it's not just luck, there's a lot more to it than that.

Delphas

Delphas is rather good at debating, but w/o a changeling cameo he's up against a wall when it comes to truefavoured-avatar-faeling.  And during the last Father Sun walked in Antlers, which meant Serenwilders had quite the advantage.  Curses!

Otherwise I'm pretty happy with the current debating system, but that might be because it's something I'm actually good at.

Arcanis

Synkarin said:

Debating is fine and does require a certain set of skills. 

People in general will follow patterns, patterns that can be picked up on. 

There are also debate afflictions and attitudes and other skills that can weigh heavily on how much ego damage you are doing. Some people have been known to sit on a mindset for a bit waiting for an attack, then switch it up and hit someone for big hits to finish them off. There are a variety of tactics to employ and it isn't simply the rock/papers/scissors method you are saying it is.

I am not surprised to see your rejection of my suggestion, but I will clarify points of why debating is in fact -not- fine and why the other events do not simply work on system patterns.


- Nature requires clues to be solved for locations in the basin that one has to travel to in order to mark off their sheet. This requires not only experience in exploration but also brain power.

- War requires combat to be undertaken between groups, perhaps one of the most defining mechanics of lusternian gameplay. Combat has so many avenues and so many tactics one can employ, that it is a universal and self-sufficient concept to employ a seal over. If you have the skills, then you can get the seal.

- Death requires slaying creatures, and alot of them. This may seem like a pattern and rather static, but there is more to consider here. Any Death holder (and I rather wish Karlach was still active to attest to this) will mention the strategy that goes into it. The locations generally unvisited, the number of mobs in locations, respawn rates, strengths and weaknesses of creatures and how to expand on this, secret areas that may have tucked away quest mobs, endurance/willpower drain and regen, avoiding enemy locations so not to have friends of enemies pick you off, etc. etc.


- Harmony, the reflection of the Death event, is basically the same concept, but utilizing a passive mechanic. Again, certain variables will come into play here, including the attitudes of the mobs and if your race has any racial advantage over said attitude, such as trill with seduction.


- Life I love that it has its own unique mechanic not used in other lusternian events. One has to go around literally curing the sick, dependent on what they have. I actually wonder how this event will change when the cures are reduced to only 4.


- Beauty, perhaps one of my favorites, requires one to create (in text) an item of unique and beautiful design. It truly puts the best designers against each other.


- Knowledge actually requires the player himself to personally put in time to review history and game lore in order to achieve victory. It is basically like studying for an exam.


- Chaos is a hilarious event that lives up to its name, and has several variables to undertake in it. It draws in the mechanic of combat into it as well, leading to different strategies to employ.



All these events require some skill to them, whereas debating is mostly based on our triggers and perhaps 2-3 aliases, while standing in 1 room. I do believe the Justice event may be the fastest of the bunch. It needs something to make it on par with the others.

Synkarin

You didn't address any of my points about Justice requiring more than just luck......

I've won two seals in my day, Death and War, and I've helped numerous other people win seals so I'm rather in tune with what each event requires to win it.

Just like War, Justice is about knowing strategies and picking up on patterns in mindsets and attacks. It doesn't require as complex as a system as War (or any other seal event where you may be killed during it) but a rather simple one. 

Sure, a person can throw together a debater that randomizes mindsets and attacks everytime, but not everyone has that, and most people don't use completely random attacks each and every time. 

This really seems like it's another "@Arcanis doesn't like it, so it must be changed" ideas rather than something constructive and well-thought out. Kind of like your Flares thread.

I think Justice is fine, if you don't want to bother competing, then don't bother.

Arcanis

Synkarin said:

You didn't address any of my points about Justice requiring more than just luck......

I've won two seals in my day, Death and War, and I've helped numerous other people win seals so I'm rather in tune with what each event requires to win it.

Just like War, Justice is about knowing strategies and picking up on patterns in mindsets and attacks. It doesn't require as complex as a system as War (or any other seal event where you may be killed during it) but a rather simple one. 

Sure, a person can throw together a debater that randomizes mindsets and attacks everytime, but not everyone has that, and most people don't use completely random attacks each and every time. 

This really seems like it's another "@Arcanis doesn't like it, so it must be changed" ideas rather than something constructive and well-thought out. Kind of like your Flares thread.

I think Justice is fine, if you don't want to bother competing, then don't bother.

How can you even compare Justice to War? That's like comparing 2nd grader math to calculas.


Debating literally has 2 strategies one builds up on:

- What debate to use (choice of 3), based on which mindset they have (choice of 3)
- When to waste a turn to use a dramatic effect to make an attack type stronger.


This is strategy? Moreso, this is -not- luck? There is no way to tell what mindset your individual has, nor what attack they will use themselves and it quite literally comes to a draw: What you picked with what defense they used. Kind of seems like....oh rock-scissors-paper?


You define this as a Seal event? I would pity such a statement to degrade -this- as a fighting mechanic to encompass the biggest event drawer of lusternia.


You claim this thread as a "Arcanis hates something, so it must be changed"? I simply am pointing out a flaw in design, wherein 1 of the 9 events of Ascension is sorely lacking in flavor and flare to the other 8. I could however simply rebuttal your claim with an equally childish one, stating that your responses are simply another "I dont like this person, thus I will outright claim they are wrong".

Shuyin

To be honest if we're gonna use your criteria for what defines a seal event, Beauty is literally X people deciding that your essay is subjectively the best one.

What strategy can you even utilize. Longer word count?

Btw speaking as a 3 time war winner, the strategy to win isn't particularly complicated, we're just efficient.

Synkarin

You're dumbing down the Justice strategies that I've already gone past. You seem to think that debating is about each individual attack, where it's about the whole debate and group of attacks.

As I said, it's more like poker. You need to consider your hand vs their hand vs what they think you have vs what they think you think they have etc. Your goal is to win the whole pot, not a few hands, sometimes you purposefully switch up strategies in the middle to change people's attacks based on their mindsets or debates. Sometimes you let them think they have your pattern down and you turn it on them in the last second to squeak out a win. Sometimes you lose on purpose a few hands to win bigger pots later.

It's all about long-term strategy, not short-term wins. This is why I think it's something you've decided that you just don't like and it must change. You simply don't know what you're talking about, and have proven it by your obvious lack of experience, and how instead of actually trying to learn how things work, you run to forums to change them. 

Portius

Shuyin said:

To be honest if we're gonna use your criteria for what defines a seal event, Beauty is literally X people deciding that your essay is subjectively the best one. What strategy can you even utilize. Longer word count? Btw speaking as a 3 time war winner, the strategy to win isn't particularly complicated, we're just efficient.

Increased word count, matching topic and tone with that of previous winners to maximize chances of a good score. But easily the most subjective and thus least strategic.

Personally I'd like to see some changes in the event lineup for variety's sake. Swapping debates out for psychodrama or vengeance or something would accomplish that, but I don't think there's a strategic depth reason to do it. Psychodrama certainly wouldn't make it any less random, but it'd be something new.

Delphas

Arcanis said:

Debating literally has 2 strategies one builds up on:

- What debate to use (choice of 3), based on which mindset they have (choice of 3)
- When to waste a turn to use a dramatic effect to make an attack type stronger.


This is strategy? Moreso, this is -not- luck? There is no way to tell what mindset your individual has, nor what attack they will use themselves and it quite literally comes to a draw: What you picked with what defense they used. Kind of seems like....oh rock-scissors-paper?

Delphas rarely loses even to Elfen and Trill.  Perhaps ``Strategy'' is not the right word, but it did take a of study to come up with the correct balance of debate-attack vs dramatics-afflict.  Perhaps that was about as productive as counting buttons, but please don't take the thing Delphas is good at! He might even have a shot this year... unless everyone switches to faeling for the day, and both Skull isn't ascendant and Lion is maligned. *grumble*

Svana

Honestly, debating is a lot like warrior combat, and thus, can be related to fighting pretty easily.

"But Svana! Debating is rock-paper-scissors! It's a guessing game!"

What do you think we warriors do with stancing and parrying? We have to guess and we have to poke until we figure out their defence, and then we capitalize on any weakness we find until our enemy ultimately dies. Debating is no different than this.

It's a valid form of competition, and thus it makes sense for a competitive scenario.

Moi

To those who think debating is too simple: Give us an algorithm that maximizes your win chances at debates. Hint: "Swap mindsets and attacks at random" isn't the correct answer, due to attitudes and debate afflictions changing the payoffs for attacks.

Rivius

Svana said:

Honestly, debating is a lot like warrior combat, and thus, can be related to fighting pretty easily.

"But Svana! Debating is rock-paper-scissors! It's a guessing game!"

What do you think we warriors do with stancing and parrying? We have to guess and we have to poke until we figure out their defence, and then we capitalize on any weakness we find until our enemy ultimately dies. Debating is no different than this.

It's a valid form of competition, and thus it makes sense for a competitive scenario.

Not even close.

Eritheyl

If you think that debating boils down to luck, it's probably because you aren't very good at it. If you're not good at it, it's probably because you think it boils down to luck. If you're playing a low cha race, don't prepare your buffs as well as your opponents, and lean on 'it's just random chance', you're not going to win very many debates. There are ways to improve your debating skill for Justice, just as there are ways to improve your hunting for Death, your influencing for Harmony, all of that.

That said, I am -terrible at debating- because I would rather panic, smash aliases and hope for the best. It seems to be the most common approach to something that can be improved on with tact. But I personally won't complain about a Seal event just because I won't make the investments that others have to excel - they deserve to win it.

I do agree that some people have a much easier time of it, but that's because of the choices they've made for their characters (largely,  race), which of course make them lackluster in other aspects. Just as playing a loboshigaru/illithoid/taurian/slew of other races will make you less likely to win debates, but excel in hunting or your chosen form of combat. It's give and take. I'm eager to see how all of this will shift post-overhaul, though.

Ssaliss

The one big thing I dislike about debating is the fact that you take more and more ego damage the longer it goes on. That means that towards the end, you basically win or lose based on two lucky (or semi-lucky) hits. If you win against your opponents mindset and they lose to yours, you win, and vice versa, no matter how much ego you have. Cap ego loss somehow, and you get a state where you have to beat your opponents mindset at least a couple of times in order to win. Frankly, though, I don't even know where to start doing that.

Lavinya

I would like it if we could practice debating in the arena! I used to hate it until I actually eased back from the panic mash and started paying more attention to strategy. I've done a lot better since then. I still need to work on better use of the afflictions and attitudes, which would be easier to do if we could practice in the arena and be unshattered afterwards (no one wants to have to wait that long just to practice debating, when you can go back and keep sparring over and over instantly. HINT HINT @Ieptix, make this a thing plz?)

I don't think all challenges are created equal, beauty is extremely subjective for example and nature can come down to who has the most ways to access secret areas in a hurry, but Justice definitely gives everyone a fighting chance to be competitive without being a super artied influencer/hunter or a pk god. I'm with Delphas, don't take it away from me!

Eritheyl

Lavinya said:

I would like it if we could practice debating in the arena!

This, so much this. Debate practice can be demoralizing considering the cooldown on losing. Maybe just tweak a room somewhere that cuts shattered ego down to a few seconds at most (the Chambers of Justice?) so people can work their way up.

Shuyin

Let's be realistic, if you're not a demi trill or faeling master race and don't have ready access to shrine/etc then you're probably not gonna win.

Unfortunately not everyone has a fighting chance. That's beauty, life, and chaos

Malayn

I have done well at justice every year I have entered if I recall. 

I lost to a max charisma bard, and that was my own fault for not tracking eq costs on items I hadn't used before.

Regardless of charisma I have a long record of shattering others, taking denizens, etc. 

Justice has an element of luck, but so does everything. Curing in combat has a randomizer, chance of warrior or monk missing, chance of warrior affliction hitting, will you be in the room and are entourage on you?   War has far more elements of luck involved, and this can be emphasized by previous years events. 

None of the events are unusually better than others, and I have found the flaws in a couple of them (which we fixed by reporting them ahead of time), and all of them have their own unique sides.   Debating is simple to follow but you will find the same people tend to do really well, even if they have far lower charisma.

Only fixes I would like for Justice is 1) Set each persons charisma so it isn't a battle of specializations (which warbling trill wins in huge spades)  and 2) remove the effect of great house from it.  Would adore a truly equal battle ground so skill was the only thing important.

Maligorn

I think it's pretty lame of Arcanis to cheapen basically all the winners of the Justice Seal to just "luck lol u scrub".

Pejat won because he found the chink in Chade's attitudes during their debate and capitalised on it, while also being probably 25 cha. He prepared for that, just like he prepared for Harmony with @Talan.

Remember that time in Stewartsville not too long ago when @Kelly fought for the village leader against basically everyone southside (as a paladin) while also holding the influence, and ended up winning the village by convincing her? That's not luck bud.

EDIT:

Malarious said:

 (which warbling trill wins in huge spades)

Do I need to dig up Talan's hilarious ass post? I will dig for it. Just a sec.

EDIT 2:

Lol, it's even in reference to a post of yours Malarious. http://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/35001/#Comment_35001

EDIT 3:

I won't deny that Justice belongs to the bard specs, particularly warbling trill and shadowsinger faeling. But anyone can be just -aa- faeling. It's a Seal contest. You try going faeling and running in there without a debate strategy and let me know how that works out for you. But the people that are in it to win it will bulldoze over you.

Neos

That's @Kelly being OP.

Maligorn

I also want you to know, @Arcanis, one day you're going to have an actually good idea and people are going to dismiss it as whining, baseless BS if you keep making threads like these.

Arcanis

I think the consensus seems to be that the challenge is coming down to who as the most charisma, i.e ego, as debating is a battle of attrition of ego damage.

Frankly I found the mechanic a bore, but if people like it, then who am I to judge? I simply found that a flavorless event could definitely use some spicing up, as it was quite literally the quickest and least exciting of the events.

Maligorn said:

I also want you to know, Arcanis, one day you're going to have an actually good idea and people are going to dismiss it as whining, baseless BS if you keep making threads like these.

And herein lies a crucial problem with that mindset of yours and a few others that squat around the forums, you seem to be under the consensus that negative feedback based on the individual rather than the suggestion is apparently a 'thing'. I have been witnessing a lot lately how somehow the OOC and IC relations in the game are becoming rather blurred and things are being carried between. My post was, if anything, quite a logical statement and based on the facts. Justice -is- the quickest and least competitive event, and does rely on an old 'fighting' mechanic that uses quite the simple system (debate (pun intended) on this if you wish).

I come up with relevant topics and ideas all the time, but they wont always hit home. I attempt to bring up cases of mechanics I see could use some sprucing up to make it more fun and more engaging. Some off the top of my head:


- Making Flares more accessible to players without purchased bixes and thus least dependent on individuals with a bix or the relevant skills (flashpoints) to get to said bubble. Additionally, making flares more engaging in combat mechanics by allowing face to face initiations rather than just ship turrets.

- Making mob villages have more than one accessible politics leader, especially not a single leader that requires a quest to resurrect first, thus creating a paradox of being unable to be unenemied.

- Making the presents system less clunky and have more balanced percentages in gifts, thus reducing the current rather large outcome of commodities and gold all the time and possibly making it more fun to use.



If I have an idea to try and make this game more fair and engaging, then yes I will suggest it. I know some old-time players like the idea of "it's fine as is", but nothing is perfect and I personally will attempt to point out flaws that can be ironed out. People can read them and give commentary if they like, but I basically will try to get it out there.

Maligorn

All I have to say is, you try Justice challenge without a strategy in mind and let me know how it works out for you

Synkarin

The Illithoid/Kephera leader for amnesty has been an issue and complained about many many times before you brought it up, that's nothing new, and something the playerbase in general has agreed upon. @Ieptix and @Estarra finally got around to making the change.

The biggest issue @Arcanis is that you don't really ever change your mind about something and you've definitely presented a 'I don't like it, so lets change it' approach to most of your ideas (IE: this thread, flares AND presents).  I don't really feel there's an old timer 'things are fine the way it is' mentality, just an approach to give credit where it's due. You clearly don't debate a lot, or with any degree of skill based on what you've determined debating is all about and despite multiple people saying otherwise, you're refusing to change your opinion. It's not just me, it's quite a few people, from all sides of the Basin. 

Flares is about aethership combat, not ground combat, there is nodes and unpeaced village revolts to get your combat fill there, Flares is specifically for aethership combat. It's a part of the game we need to embrace more rather than steer away from. It's also another conflict avenue that people can participate in. Some really big open non-coms have excelled in aethership combat by empathing, piloting or turretting. Changing that removes an aspect of the game that encourages people to participate in different ways.

Your ideas to make this game more 'fair and engaging' are to make it more 'fair and engaging' to you, not the entire population in general. Some people don't like certain aspects at all but really love and enjoy other aspects, and that's okay. We shouldn't take that away because you don't like it.

Saesh

Arcanis said:

I think the consensus seems to be that the challenge is coming down to who as the most charisma, i.e ego, as debating is a battle of attrition of ego damage.

Frankly I found the mechanic a bore, but if people like it, then who am I to judge? I simply found that a flavorless event could definitely use some spicing up, as it was quite literally the quickest and least exciting of the events.

Maligorn said:

I also want you to know, Arcanis, one day you're going to have an actually good idea and people are going to dismiss it as whining, baseless BS if you keep making threads like these.

And herein lies a crucial problem with that mindset of yours and a few others that squat around the forums, you seem to be under the consensus that negative feedback based on the individual rather than the suggestion is apparently a 'thing'. 

It is a thing. Intent, tone, and source are all very important to a civil discourse. Suggestions, regardless of their validity, pass through the filter of human interaction. 

For example: if there was an envoy that said "Shuyin sucks, Synkarin sucks, Enyalida sucks, Elanorwen sucks, Rivius sucks, my X skill isn't useful and needs a buff, Tanin sucks, Kelly sucks," their skill that actually may need a buff is lost because everyone stopped listening much earlier.