Transgender Discussion (Potential Trigger Warning)

Ieptix

This discussion was created from comments split from: Gender and Respect.

Maligorn

So, hey everyone. I've been thinking about this a lot and I know that I can be loud and proud about what I believe in game wise. But this is real life, so it's taken me a while to formulate my thoughts regarding this.

I'm sharing with you my viewpoint because you guys are my second family. My home away from home. I trust you guys to not bite my head off SJW style. So here goes.


I come from a moderately conservative family. My mother is an internal medicines doctor and my father is a clinical psychologist. I've been taught all my life that willpower is the key to solving any mental issue you face, and if that fails, there is medicine and treatment waiting for you. When I see someone that is blatantly transgender or undergoing hormone therapy, I become literally squeamish in my stomach. It's not out of disgust but empathetic pity that they'd assign such a stigma to themselves, saying "look at how dysphoric and unbalanced I am!"

I know that's irrational, and I have my own mental problems that lead into that, but that's really how I feel.

So I have to look deeply into this. How much of the fight against binary gendering is truly heartfelt and how much is just a "fight the power and the people who want to label you". I've been raised to believe that dysphoria, even gender dysphoria, can be solved with treatment, medication and psychotherapy.

And yet I see scans of a man's brain showing it to have MORE than a few similarities to a woman's -- it's just that the poor person was assigned a Y chromosome instead of an X. Beyond their genitalia, they really are women -- they were shaped to be that way, just something in the genetic code went awry during formation of the baby.

So then I have to ask, how much is nature and how much is nurture. Nature would be having the literally female brain in a man's body. Nurture would be, say, childhood trauma instilled a gender dysphoria in the patient. How do we treat each person. When a person consents to treatment, that means that they actually cannot demand a medicine from their doctor -- your doctor has full control over what he or she prescribes to you (that way, you can't walk into the office saying "I have a headache, give me x milligrams of xanax doc". But naturally, you can go around seeing different doctors until you find the one that gives you the answer you're looking for.

How much of it is motivated by sexual fetish. If I were a doctor and someone came to me looking for hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery, I would probably refuse them if their only reason was to satisfy their sexual needs. The pragmatist in me screams "why would you want to be a woman in what is literally a man's world (higher wages, higher employment, etc. I'm NOT TRYING TO BE CHAUVINISTIC the facts are just there y'all (though slowly equalizing)). The pragmatist also says why would you let yourself be assigned such a social stigma.

What I wonder is how many so-called transgender or genderfluid people can be treated with normal methods -- not electrotherapy or any bullshit like that -- but medicine and psychotherapy (and how many would actually want to do that) -- and how many would achieve the greatest sense of happiness from hormone therapy or gender reassignment.

EDIT: It's a long watch, but I fell in love with this Australian TV show thing. Relevant to topic.

Maligorn

Uh, wow. Sorry about that! "Triggering" has been kind of made laughable by what I've seen from Tumblr SJWs, but I should've realized that I was making a legitimate post to all you adults here. I'm very sorry about that, I should've been more sensitive to that.

Enyalida

I have comments on this, that I'll make a little later. Don't know why, I just feel the need to mention that.

Ieptix

I'm moving this out of the Gender and Respect thread because this sort of discussion is sufficiently removed from the purpose of the original thread; that thread is there to note the expectations of the administration in regards to the subject at hand, and to make sure that those sensitive to such issues know they are safe in Lusternia. While you are reaching for understanding, and I know your motives here are in no way malicious or accusatory, it's nonetheless a very sensitive topic, particularly for those who have to deal with gender issues directly in their own lives, and questioning of these things can lead to discomfort and a perceived lack of safety even when motives are pure.

I'll note as well, that while I applaud your desire to understand these sorts of gender issues, this topic runs close to the edge of rules regarding OOC political discussion, in a way that it deals heavily in topics that are heavy, emotional, controversial (even if they really shouldn't be). It's a murky line, and one I'll leave to the forum moderators (and Estarra) to decide on, but know this thread may be closed later regardless.

Elanorwen

I'm just going to add the following to this conversation:

Klinefelter syndrome

Enyalida

Before the rest of the post, I just want to make it clear that I do not consider myself to be on the Trans* spectrum, though I do consider myself an ally. This means that not only is what I say not representative of all trans people (duh?), it's not even representative of me as a trans person. So, that. I like to think that I have a decent outsider's insight, but I'm all ears, correct me if I'm wrong.

@Maligorn, the answer to your question "How do we treat people?" is "With difficulty, and hopefully sensitivity.". 

The basic problem you describe is a constant struggle, not only for those trying to figure out the best way to support someone on the trans spectrum, but for those trans people as well. Not only is the trans person wrestling with gender dysphoria and potential body dysmorphia, both agonizing, doubt can be crippling. Imagine all of the doubt and anxiety involved with just... growing up, or being a more 'typical' adult... now add in the words "freak", "pervert", "crazy", "abused", and turn it up to 11. 

I mentioned gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia, which are two separate things. In general, I would say that the trans* experience is typified by the former (dysphoria) not dysmorphia. That is, trans people were gender dysphoric, but not all trans people had (or have) dysmorphia. Gender dysphoria has to do with a disconnect between what society expects of you because of your biological sex and your internal self, you don't match your gender's assigned roles and are a better fit for a different gender's role and expectations. Body dysmorphia is all about you, the 'mind and soul' that comprise your identity are at severe odds with your physicality, your body. BDD (body dysmorphic disorder) is not confined to a transsexual experience, it's any time you have a severe anxiety about your body, often involving a distorted perception of it. 

BDD is a mental illness, it is an anxiety disorder. Gender dysphoria is not, by DSMV standards - the highest psychological diagnostic standards in the land, as it were. That isn't to say that people wo have gender dysphroria are free from mental illness, the opposite tends to be true: Not only is potential BDD in the mix, the extraordinary stresses on the gender dysphoric in such a gender charged society are enormous, and trans (and other Queer* people) often are reluctant to seek help, more so than their cis-gendered or heteronormative counterparts. 

So, that might answer part of your question on how to treat gender dysphoria is: You don't. At least not from an internest/psychopharmacological standpoint You can't treat or solve it any more than you can treat being left handed, or preferring apple pie to chocolate cake, or being one of those sad sad freaks for whom cilantro tastes like soap. What you do is 'manage' your dysphoria. The most direct solution is to move towards the gender role (or eschew gender roles) that reduces your dysphoria. You were born with a penis, and have dysphoria. Living as a woman reduces your dysphoria, solution found. Penis can go, penis can stay, doesn't always matter.

Often times, the medical interventions involved in SRS/GRS procedures are exceedingly expensive. Just this week, I was looking at the numbers, wondering how much it would cost for a trans woman friend to remove her extra appendages. It's a lot. In some states (I'll leave it there, no politics) and countries, there is insurance that covers these procedures, and in all cases one of the requirements to qualify is a period of the following:

1) Living successfully as your target sex. That is, at home, at work, in public, you should be presenting an identity consistent with your desired sex.

2) You must undergo a period of counseling, and have a signed letter from your mental health provider attesting to your sincerity and capacity to handle the surgery.

3) You must undergo a period in which you are using less invasive means to move towards your target sex, like hormone replacement therapy. 

I won't comment too much on what I think about these (and other requirements), and how they potentially price out many trans people, who are a particularly disadvantaged population, even when compared to other Queer populations. That covers most of the concern about people "Just in it for the kicks", or the like.  There is a sexual fetish involved with cross-dressing, that has nothing to do with trans* identities, and you don't call people with that fetish trans (and they almost certainly do not too)!


I want to also point out, as an aside: Electrotherapy is alive and well. It's a useful and gentle tool for treating depression and other mental disorders, usually employed on people who cannot tolerate some antidepressants, like old or pregnant people.

*Queer terminology is famously personal and contentious. When I say "Queer" I mean it to include all the LGBT+, alternate-gender-and-sexual-experience people. I do draw the line somewhere, I wrote a looong screed about 'otherkin' the other day, as a comment on a blog post about them. But in general, I mean Queer to include all those people, and allies!

Enyalida

I kind of rambled there, but I hopefully at least addressed all of the things you mention, @Maligorn. 

To any and all trans* people who might read the boards, or people who are educated in Queer healthcare/support, was that accurate? I'm just entering the health care profession, I and my bestie hope to eventually become NPs specializing in queer care, though she's more into women's health specific issues* than I.

*Including trans women AND men. If you've ever had a cervix dudes, you still need to get checked for cervical cancers and other "women's health issues", as much as you aren't a woman. DAMN YOU, DOUBLE XX!

Maligorn

Thanks for that. That seems really well-informed. What I was worried about, I suppose, is people making hipshot decisions on this and being allowed to do so, but to know that therapy and counseling is involved beforehand is comforting.

If you want your x y z gone, you -should- have to see a psychiatric for a few months and then see how you feel. What you might unravel in therapy might solve your dysphoria more than dressing up or looking the part does. Am I right?

Enyalida

Sort of. Usually though, it's one of those things that's so deeply felt that there is little question. For some, it may be that remaining in the gender they were assigned at birth IS the right thing to do for them. That does not mean that they were wrong or mistaken. It just means that it's the best course available to that person.

Something I mentioned, but neglected to make a big enough deal about is that language about requiring outside investigation 'just in case' can come off as really paternalistic. It can sound like you're saying that you (or some professional, historically a heteronormative man - THE man) knows you better than you know you. That they know what's best for you, and you don't. 

Of course, that's nothing like what visiting a good, modern mental health professional should be like. My mother (the psychotherapist) always tells me that for all the tools she has in her mental health box, what really does the work on the therapist's couch is the special relationship built between the provider and the client. You untangle problems together, it's not about the therapist getting out the scalpel and magnifying glass, locating the problem, and slicing it off - nothing so unilateral. 

So yes, it's good that people see a therapist before undergoing such a frankly traumatic experience. It's good for veryone to seek counseling all the time, if they can afford it. It's just a good idea. It's not so much about 'making sure it's really who they are', it's about having support and clarity, and being more healthy - for a population that is absolutly rife with punishing mental illness and disorder, as I mentioned above. Seriously, the statistics are staggering. A big part of it is the pressure and heat of being who they are, coupled with a tendency to fear help (because of the above perceptions I talk about, with THE MAN poking around in your head), allowing problems to take root and entrench themselves .

Aerotan

Enyalida mentioned a point about insurance, and my birdies wanted it expanded on a little bit. 

Some insurance policies are very flexible about prescribing androgen and estrogen for trans* patients. Most people working insurance love them for it. Most, however, are NOT so flexible about those or other hormones involved in transitioning, even if they are for other uses (such as preventing cancers, reproductive viability, or cosmetic or lifestyle reasons (men taking testosterone to postpone or prevent pattern baldness)). This is unfair, but it's how the industry works. Anyone transitioning is usually in for a long, uphill struggle to get their medications, and will often be subjected to multiple rounds of appeals if they get it at all. 

For all of the faults of the Affordable Care Act, the fact that it established a level of medical necessity review that is not in the hands of the insurance company itself is a GODSEND for many patients, and the fact that this level is required to be offered is likely the best thing to come out of a bill that I generally agree with anyway. It's a pain, and a layer of red tape, but it has overturned more than one ruling that would have denied these patients affordable medicines.

I sincerely doubt anyone would willingly subject him or herself to such a process if they were anything but serious about it.

Enyalida

Yeah, that's edging on political stuff that's... contentious. I think we can all agree that in a perfect world, people would have full and free access to all needed preventative and responsive health care, including mental health care. Pesky things like money and human nature and 'needing to feed my children' keep getting in the way.

An interesting (mild, and generally apolitical, as I remember it) talk about the way the US mishandles young trans* people can be viewed here.

The gist is that in some places, trans girls and boys like the ones depicted in @Maligorn's videos are prescribedmedication that will stop them from having the wrong puberty until they're ready to undergo assisted puberty as their correct sex/gender. This is a way easier-on-the-body approach that gets better results, with the "bonus" of saving some poor kid from the terrifying and horrifying process of wrong puberty. Really, that's the best part, puberty is scary enough already.

EDIT: UH, it shows in my preview, but dies when I post.  Let me fix it.

Estarra

I'd like to stress for those choosing to participate in this discussion to try to be very respectful on both sides of the subject.

I know more about homosexuality, and there's still no definitive answer as to why someone is gay or not, though most believe the biggest role is environmental or genetic or some combination thereof. BTW, when scientists talk about "environmental" causes of homosexuality, they mean the environment of the fetus in utero (generally looking at hormone levels of the mother while the fetus is in the womb), and not the environment after the child is born (i.e., sexuality has nothing to do with a domineering mother or a weak father or not being held enough or whatever). In any event, it is generally believed that sexual orientation is set by the time the child is three years old. And, as pointed out, brain scans show that there is indeed physiological differences between gays and straights.

It's my understanding that causes of transgenderism is even more a mystery than homosexuality (which, again, is not fully understood). Could there be genetic or environmental reasons? No one knows. Of course, no one talks about what if there's a spiritual cause (a feminine soul born into a male body and vice versa), and I guess there's no room for that sort of debate in this age of science (though I can't help wondering). I think ultimately it is no one's business but the person involved who, like all of us, is searching to find themselves. Maybe the key to happiness and fulfillment is not to try to convince the transgendered through psychotherapy and drugs that he or she isn't transgendered but to accept who they are (which is pretty much the consensus for how to treat those unhappy with their own homosexuality).

There is a fetish called cross-dressing and also performance art called drag, and it does get messy when either overlap with being truly transgender. But ultimately cross-dressing fetishes, drag performance and being truly transgender are all very different things.

Enyalida

There has been some traditional... gristle between drag performers and the trans* community, which is thankfully clearing up some (I hope). Misogyny, transphobia, and their really horrendous evil baby transmisogny are alive and well, even within Queer culture (which is wide and varied). 

Remember what I said before about personal terminology? Well, some people say "Queer and Trans", presenting a difference between the two types of identity. I don't think that's a good move, but it does highlight that trans people are probably the most misunderstood and persecuted of people on the Queer spectrum, even in relation to other queer people, who should be their staunchest allies.

There's also a really interesting bit about queer identities in the book Far From the Tree, a book about horizontal identities. Basically, most people have an identity that is strongly based on their parent's identities: it's a vertical identity. Your're Roman Catholic, your parents were probably Roman Catholic, and so on. Seeing as they (even if not biologically your forebears) raised you, and you are a product of that upbringing, along with other elements. 

The book focuses on all kinds of horizontal identities, where an identity comes from some 'sideways' source, and you identify radically with some group your parents do not. He has sections on deaf children of hearing parents (do you perform cochlear implants? Is this robbing them of community with other, fully-deaf people?), people with high criminal children, disabled children, and yes: gay children. The author himself is gay, and the things he has to say about identity are interesting.

Maligorn

Well.

Enyalida has neatly put to rest my concerns in a few posts. I suppose I already knew that some cases of transgenderism are very much -felt-, and that some are solved through therapy, and some through hormones, and some through surgery. I suppose I just wanted to hear it from someone else that isn't a 14-yo girl from Tumblr, but from what you guys have gleaned through your experience.

Enyalida

Yeah. I have a lot of problems with Tumblr SJW culturs. I'd be happy to talk about my feelings there in PMs, as I have several... non-fond things to say about the subject.

Seriously, I could talk about gender and sexuality all day, and do when I get the chance. I'm still working on the "Actually go out and do shit, help people instead of being an armchair activist" but then again, so is the majority of the country. Education is where it's at, though!

I'd be interested to hear (privatly) the experiences of Queer Lusternians. Remember: that includes allies to, and can therefore be anyyou!

Rialorm

Ally here. I'm going to mostly echo what has been said already, but I feel if you are unhappy with who or how you are, not just limited to gender, you should investigate why. Professional help is a good idea if you can't figure it out on your own or you want a more objective listener. I think it is too bad that gender issues were once considered mental issues, and am glad that is being phased out. It seems there is both nature and nurture at work, but I feel it doesn't matter too much in the end. If through therapy or soul-searching you discover that you feel your biological gender and mental gender do not match, and you want to act upon changing the former, permanently or not, then you should go for it. Some of us put tattoos on our bodies, get corrective surgery, or simply use make-up to subtly alter our appearance and how others perceive us. It is your body to do with as you like. If we're allowing people to do 'bad' things such as smoking, because that is a freedom of choice, then why not hormone therapy if a person wants to switch genders?

I get that it isn't always so easy to understand. When I first learned I had a friend who went MTF I was a little confused. At first I didn't know that was a thing at all, I'd only heard about drag. But up until that point she'd perfectly passed for a woman in my mind, and I didn't feel so different about it after. It didn't really matter. She was happy.

I get why some people struggle with the idea. Cultural norms put some expectations in our minds. I've some history of my own there. I grew up dressing very girlishly, but due to getting bullied for assorted reasons I ended up dressing like a boy (I got kicked and beaten and dresses would show the bruises and wounds and invited more of it). As a teen I thus got bullied for dressing and looking like a boy, including my short hair cuts which always looked very feminine at the hairdresser but on me just looked weird. Now that I'm an adult I seem to have finally found my balance. Although I do wish some ladies wear was more practical. I think female business wear looks really sexy but it seems to be made for offices in a steady 21+ degrees climate where it never rains or snows or anything. Anyway, trailing off here :P

As for Tumblr culture, ugh, I'll keep it to saying it almost does more harm than good. I don't want to say these are not real problems, but I do feel that for some the lack of any real issues in their life has them resort to that. And it makes sense, humans seem to be made to thrive in times of conflict. So when that is lacking we sort of seem to make our own, such as how infighting in close communities starts. We seem to kinda need an enemy, to the point we begin making them if there aren't any. And then there is also the fact how hot button topics like feminism get totally torn away from the original context by blogs and news sites looking to maximize page views. Anger is -the- page view generating emotion. And so the story is spun for the sake of money. Never mind the harm it does. And that seems to then fuel Tumblr SJW who gobble this up to reinforce their 'imaginary' enemy. Again, I don't wish to say that transphobia or any gender discrimination isn't real. Have had my experiences with the latter, too. It sucks. But if you blow the issue up to such a degree it becomes a laughing stock, well, you're shooting yourself in the foot. I'll leave it at that >_>

Isune

One of my best friends in the world is genderfluid. Ze came to this conclusion over a few years, having chosen to focus on social work with queer youth and consequently earning a master's degree that allowed hir to do so. Having considered hirself a lesbian prior to this realization, ze was not a stranger to being treated differently, but still ze has confided that acknowledging hirself as genderfluid has been an incredibly trying process - not so much because of inner turmoil, but because of external turmoil created by how ze is treated by people everyday. Many people don't know how to treat individuals who don't consider themselves female or male, but the answer is in fact quite simple: with respect.

We may laugh at things like tumblr being full of '14 year old SJWs' but it's actually not a bad place to form a community. I know my friend has found a lot of comfort there in talking to people who feel what ze feels. Sometimes, though not always, that feeling is anger. As an outsider looking in through blogs alone, it can feel like that anger exists in a vacuum. 'Why are you so angry?' It's hard not to be angry, sometimes, when you're consistently facing a world that tries to silence your existence. Trans people are regularly the butt of jokes on television. Genderfluid people don't even exist on television. Further, there are still pockets of the LGBTQIA community that find the main struggle to be 'marriage equality' and believe that handling trans issues is distracting ('We should be united'). The truth is we are still so far away from people accepting people who don't match our idea of sex and gender, it is no wonder that so many people seek therapy in order to cope with this frustrating reality. It is no wonder that so many people feel the need to throw their frustrations into an online void, hoping someone echoes back, 'Me, too.'

My friend is lucky in that ze has a loving partner, an incredibly accepting family, many wonderful friends, and a tremendous degree of self-assurance and confidence. Not everyone has those gifts, and even with them, things remain hard. There has been a lot of intelligent commentary made here, but I felt it was crucial to acknowledge that there are people who find the most relief and the most acceptance from finding people who understand their experiences. We are fortunate to live in an age where such online communities can develop, whether on tumblr or otherwise.

Mysrai

It's much better to have support through dysphoria than to not have that support. One of my friends identifies as genderqueer, with a preference for she pronouns. At the time she transitioned, she was isolated in rural Maryland. There was no community there for her. There was no supportive family structure there, no sympathetic psychologists or doctors. Like many other transgendered individuals, she chose to order her anti-androgens and her hormones via the Internet - I believe from some place in China. It's vouched for by others in various online communities, but who knows? 

It was those same communities, Tumblr and otherwise, that provided those support structures and pointed her at said locations.

It's worth mentioning that despite being an excellent programmer and a very hardworking individual, she literally could not get hired into the tech scene out there. Her girlfriend barely kept her job after transitioning in the Northern Virginia area. My friend couldn't get hired, much less get into any kind of supportive therapy. The best job I remember her having during that time was gas station work in rural Maryland. The stigma against being transgender meant she wouldn't even get an interview past the first in person encounter.

My friend moved to Baltimore, which was a safer place for her than the countryside, and was promptly greeted by an unsupportive transgender support group that insisted transwomen had to be more female than female in order to pass, lest they damage the cause. She was harassed and shouted at on a daily basis. I listened to her deal with body-image issues, doubt over her transition, outright self-loathing, and other bullshit like being fetishized by guys who liked the idea of a lady with a dick or worse. I also watched her kick some ass in the interim. Lady can throw a goddamn punch.

I was really happy when she moved out of Baltimore to Seattle, which is generally considered a safer and more supportive environment for those of the queer persuasion. Ironically, said safe and supportive environment was where she was finally put in the hospital by a bunch of gangbangers who attacked her and her girlfriend in a local McDonalds. There was no assistance from those around her when they broke her jaw in three places and sent her to the hospital. Those responsible got away with twelve months of community service, which they promptly skipped out on.

My friend is skeptical to critical to scornfully dismissive of Tumblr and places like Tumblr, but even she has acknowledged that it's much better to have people backing you up than to have no one. Far better to find your people, wherever they are, and have their support, than to be entirely alone during a time of intense vulnerability.

Enyalida

Oh, for sure. 

When I (and I suspect @maligorn) mention Tumblr and other similar places in a derisive manner, I don't mean the entirety of the community there, or the platform itself. I'm talking about the sector of internet users that stereotypical congregate places like Tumblr who evidently have little real investment in the issues they 'support', and who are ultimately non-supportive to the people who really need it the most.

Selenity

I've tried to avoid posting here, to reading this much more, and every time, I come back. So finally I'm going to write here, and not as an ally.

As a transgender person.

I am genderfluid, female-bodied. And I feel uncomfortable even writing this because of my own experiences. I have a very real fear that I might not be treated the same after. And this post is likely going to come off as me whining to a nonexistent therapist, so I'm sorry in advance.

I live in an general area that you would think would be very accepting or understanding of people who are transgender, that being New York City. However, I do not live in a place known to locals as "The Village," nor do I live in the other two areas known for being trans-tolerant. Yes, tolerant is indeed the word I used. Not accepting, which is "oh okay, what's your pronoun, cool, back to life as normal since you're still a person!" Tolerant, as in, "... oh... kay... why the *bleep* are you telling me this? Keep the *bleep* away from me, I don't want to be near you or talk to you."

If you're outside of those areas, you have to rely on local colleges. But even they are not necessarily the good, or even decent, places to go. My college (who still hasn't given me my *bleep*ing degree) had a LGBTQ club AND a Gay-Straight alliance. What they didn't tell you before going in was that they were only interested in supporting people who were LG. BTQ were the butts of jokes, and in my time going to four meetings, it was common to make fun of people who were transgender. I saw a man leave the room in tears - yes, I consoled him after, hugs are amazing things and go a long way - because within fifteen minutes of him coming into the room for the meeting, he was getting questions like, "So what are you supposed to be?" and "Let me guess, your mom and dad really wanted to have a boy, right?" and "Don't you know how ridiculous you look when you're obviously a woman?" Turned out he had only started hormone therapy in the last few months and had gone to the group meeting hoping for some emotional support after the college's guidance counselor / social worker suggested he go there for support, saying that it would be the best thing for him.

And the sad thing is, most people aren't understanding. They have no urge to be. If you do not fit into their nice, neat little package, they don't want to deal with you. Even people who brag about their kindness and accepting nature (... typically the least accepting people you meet, tack onto most offensive statements "I have a friend that's _____") or who have OTHERS brag about their kindness and accepting nature will look at you and decide, at that moment, what gender pronoun to call you. If they can't decide by staring at your chest, hips, and crotch, they'll ask you what your genitals are. Which is really nobody's business, but Gods help you if you express that, because you'll suddenly be alone again.

As someone who has seen many psychological counselors (psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, social workers) for a variety of reasons, I only found ONE who could handle the fact that I was transgender and acknowledged how it affected me in my life. And even she suggested, "Well, why not just stop being transgender? Or pretend to be a woman from now on, since you want to have children?"

Only in the last couple of years have I started to become okay with the idea of being genderfluid. Looking back, it's always been part of me, but I desperately wanted to believe there was nothing unusual there. I wanted to pretend that my comfort taking on different gender roles was merely my being accepting of them, but it was hard to ignore that I was angry when people commented on how I looked when going for a distinctly masculine look, or when I was going for a distinctly feminine look, because by the Gods that's how I felt at those times - as a man, as a woman.

And yes, I do suffer from body dysmorphia. I feel like I'm only half normal physically, which probably comes off as ridiculous to most of you. Even more so when the fact I'm hyperovulatory is taken into account (clearly you are meant to be physically female, Selenity!).

When I mentioned preferring the use of Spivak pronouns on that thread, I wasn't talking about ignoring what other trans* people want for their pronouns and using that instead.

I meant for myself.

Now that I'm Fifty Shades of Uncomfortable I'm going to go bury myself in The Sims 4, where none of the simulated people care if the person controlling them is one gender or another and where they won't pester them regarding it.

Tarkenton

I'm a pretty simple guy.  For the longest time, I've always figured you're a guy or you're a gal.  Folks that claim they're one or the other when physically they aren't, well, a bit odd, but hey, whatever makes you happy.  Until I had spoken to Selenity's player, the idea of being genderfluid wasn't even on my radar.

All of that being said, I have to say that being on Lusternia, and being...surrounded isn't the word I want to use since that has potentially negative implications in my mind, so...in contact and making friends with people who have different opinions on sexuality and gender has been a positive eye opener for me.  One that I think has made me a better person for it.  I wasn't particularly intolerant of ways of life different from mine, despite being a dirty filthy conservative/registered Republican because of how Nevada primary voting works, but I've never gone out of my way to try and understand another person's way of living either.  So I wanted to say thanks to the Lusternia community for that, and thanks to @Selenity for explaining genderfluidity to me in a way I could grasp, e's the best.

Isune

As Lusternia is a gaming community, and not one that is primarily equipped to instruct or educate on LGBTQIA issues, I thought it might be beneficial to introduce a few outside resources for those who wish to be better informed on what it means to be transgender, and how to be a good ally:

• GLAAD's Transgender Media and Education Program - Offers tips for allies, as well as resources for transgender people.
• GLAAD's Transgender 101 - Basic questions you may have.
• Michigan State University's Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, Transgender Resource Center - Includes a host of informative links from different medias for both transgender people and allies.
• Opening the Door to the Inclusion of Transgender People: The Nine Keys to Making Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Organizations Fully Transgender-Inclusive  - Useful for creating more transgender-inclusive communities, particularly in the LGBTQIA movement.
• PFLAG National - Resources for supporting a transgender loved one, as well as for parents, educators, and transgender youth.

This is only a small sampling of the resources out there, and many link to more. Please feel free to share any that you believe might be useful!

Estarra

Tarkenton said:

I've never gone out of my way to try and understand another person's way of living either.  So I wanted to say thanks to the Lusternia community for that, and thanks to @Selenity for explaining genderfluidity to me in a way I could grasp, e's the best.

I know some question why I encourage these discussions since we are a gaming community and not some sort of support group, but it's comments like the above which is why I think it can be a good thing. It is so easy to have little empathy for people who are different from us when they are just abstract thoughts. It's quite another when you know someone who is different.

As many know, I am a gay man of a certain age who remembers during the height of the AIDS crisis there was a movement called Silence=Death which encouraged gays to be heard and not closeted, to come out to friends, families and coworkers because we were literally dying from lack of recognition that we did exist and weren't just some fringe element hidden in the underbelly of society. Then something unexpected happened, which I never thought to see: the attitude towards gays radically altered to the point where I could get married to the man that I loved.

So those transgendered persons when you feel ready to speak out and be heard and seen, whether it be to family or friends or at work or in your gaming circles, know that you are changing minds and hearts and attitudes, and you will know change, however long it seems to take or how many bumps along the road there are. And don't forget your allies stand behind you.

Siam

When I first played Lusternia back in 2008, I was extremely happy to find out that there was no discrimation in-game or in the forums. I still hadn't come out of the closet back then and I found friends who were very supportive within the Lusternian community. I'm not transgender although my friends from the LGBT/LGBT ally pool has grown over the years. I am just happy to find no judgment, no labels, no objectification from our friendship. If I never found Lusternia's community, I would have had a much harder time finding the right people to open up to - heck, finding the courage to come out would've been a much darker road. It was from playing in Lusternia that I first experienced truly being myself, in a way. It was just me and my character and gender/orientation was the least of anyone's concerns, unlike the way it was before where I had to think about my gender/orientation first before even befriending anyone. Lusternia was a sanctuary where I could be a ball of happy and positivity even if things went otherwise in real life and I can definitely say that a good number of my formative years were influenced for good by the game's community. Thank you, Lusternia. Much, much love.

Maligorn

I suppose I should say, I'm a tentative ally? I haven't joined the LGBT club at my college, but that's more because I'm just not interested in developing myself that way (gotta focus on dem academics).

Well, I guess I'm also afraid of going to the club. I -know- it's irrational to think that it's just a gathering of people that wanna get laid, but that's all I think of when I consider going to one of their meetings. A bunch of thirsty people. Maybe it's not like that. But anxiety won't let me go either way.

I'm pretty much straight, but would go for a guy if he fit a certain body type that is attractive to me. So like, barely bisexual I guess.


EDIT: Coming back to clarify, when I say tentatively an ally, I mean -- I'm all for equal rights and stuff, and stopping violence against same-sex couples and other such things, but it's not at the super top of my agenda, nor am I going to call my mayor/congressman/what the fuck ever to press him on it, or go out picketing. I have my own problems to deal with, unfortunately. I always try to lend an ear to people who need it, but I'm just not the type to ask someone how their life is going, work them through problems, so on and so forth. Unless they come to me first.

Estarra

You don't need to join a club to be an ally, though certainly that would be a huge commitment! Most LGBT folk don't join a club, just the most politically active (as with anything).

Anyway, just saying, "Hey, now, that's not cool," if someone you know says or does something homophobic or transphobic or dropping in conversation that some of your friends are gay or transgendered (even if they are virtual!) are how attitudes change over time (i.e., perception changes when people become real, rather than abstract ideas). Sometimes it's the small stuff that counts.

Aruin

And I would like to add, please don't out your friends if they're not out. If you have trans friends don't tell everyone they/you meet they're trans. Treat them as the gender they are presenting as when in public. They get to decided when and who to come out to.

Saesh

edit: (Not so much about the issue of Transgender sepcifically, but some of the confusion mentioned in the first post regarding adherance to the gender binary)

My perspective is that most gender identity confusion, like some of the confusion being expressed, comes from the ingrained ideas of the gender binary. It's so ingrained in our social programming that it permeates into the sub cultures that you'd think were, to some degree, liberated from the binary.It's why you see such an over exaggerated display of masculinity in the gay community alongside drag queens who choose to classify themselves as "fishy (looks like a real woman)," but alongside transgendered women, both pre and post op. Even in an environment that defies the typical relationship between the gender binaries, they often still comfortably place themselves in the categories. It's a lot, and it's very confusing even when you're inside the community. So your confusion is completley understood, and in many ways shared! We've always linked sex with gender, when gender is a social construct, and society learns to seperate the two as it evolves. 

Which is to say the spectrum of gender identity is such a mysterious topic for some of us because the possibilities are seemingly infinite, but we are so accustomed to a deinatively finite number of options. It's the natural inclination for a pragmatist to be skeptical of "outliers." Which is just a really wordy way to say we don't know, and society is just starting to explore the spectrum, or at least acknowledge it exists, and instead of a genuine discussion like this one, you get the Chris Crocker's of the world who are more about the attention than the issue. So you end up compounding stigma on top of stigma. 

Even when describing ourselves we fall into the binary. For example, what is "mostly straight?" Straight can only ever be one thing, homosexual can only ever be one thing. There's this enormous grey space in between that is all equally valid as hetero and homosexual. If you we are unable to describe ourselves as one or the other, we tend to define ourselves as one with qualifiers. "Straight acting." "masculine top." "Mostly straight." I think society has to become more comfortable with learning to be comfortable with being unable to define the grey space. Or the rainbow space, if you will.

My suggestion is to be liberal in what you accept from others. There are countless ways to identify one's sexuality, and the struggle is difficult enough without the pressure others trying to define it for them (even when it's with the best of intentions as it often is!). There's a certain liberation is telling another that you love them no matter what, and their journey is their own. I just tell my friends they can't all have their own pronouns, because that defeats the purpose of pronouns and I get confused when I drink. 

For the record, the LGBTQ(whatever other letters have been added at this point) groups aren't typically dating services. You're thinking of gay bars. Lots of thirsty people at the bars. 

Ayisdra

On the topic of gender binary, I think it can be hard to lift yourself from this notion depending on your native language as well. While English doesn't have gender to its words, many languages do. This concept that everything is assigned a gender also gives way to thinking that gender is this limited.

Sure, it seems the genders are randomly assigned in a language and two languages will not even match, but they still assign it. I am sure that the concept of gender (and there being more outside of the 'male/female/none(or neuter)' ) that languages use can seem confusing on a commutation level.

Riluna

In what seems like to me the last of @Maligorn's unanswered questions, there definitely is a biological element when it comes to trans* people. No study has definitively concluded it's the only causal source, but it has been proven that some people's brains are very literally hard-wired to run on a gender hormone their body doesn't produce (hypothetically connected to the stage of fetal devolopment when our physical gender is defined, perhaps an error in the brain/body triggers?). The brain very literally isn't running correctly, leading to a lot of other disorders (major depression, schizophrenia, and autism are all correlated in some data).

In these studies, when exposed to the correct androgen or estrogen (whichever was required to correct the discrepancy), trans* patients nearly universally achieved a state of euphoria, what they often personally described as "a switch in my brain suddenly being turned on." Cisgender (essentially meaning non-trans) participants, on the other hand, often experienced a state of depression for the duration of the study. All the studies I'm familiar with very dutifully controlled for placebos (which had no effect).