Physical Combat Overhaul (ailments, knights and monks, oh my!)

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  • TauTau
    edited April 2015
    Shuyin said:

    Here, let me take a crack at it, using BM as an example:


    Externals (ver. Shuwin):
    Head - Blind, DamagedThroat, Broken Neck
    Chest - Clumsiness, DamagedLungs, WeakHeart
    Gut - Offbalance, DamagedGut, BurstOrgans
    Arms - BrokenLimb, DamagedLimb, DisabledLimb
    Legs - BrokenLimb, DamagedLimb, DisabledLimb

    DamagedThroat = prevents eating dust, instant cure
    Broken Neck = doubles ice balance until cured, delayed cure
    DamagedLungs = prevents smoking steam, instant cure
    Weak Heart = Increase wound generation until cured, delayed cure
    DamagedGut = prevents sipping lucidity, instant cure (uh, upset stomach?) 
    BurstOrgans = timed instakill
    DamagedLimb = similar to Kelly, leg = no stand + sprawl, arms = wield and no refilling
    DisabledLimb = similar to Kelly, leg = damaged effects + no tumble, arms = damaged effects + no parry (need both arms)

    8 new affs (?)

    The rationale is that the initial proposal still relied too much on RNG and didn't really reward a warrior with results specific to achieving his or her kill condition. Warriors typically had some sort of locking feature, so moving these over to externals opens up spec-specific spots. The effects also seemed to have too big of an impact on groups. I've tried to amend this with the above suggestions. You can replace damaged lungs/throat/gut with boring anorexia/asthma/etc if you want to conserve space.

    RE: Specs - Cumulative effects as discussed

    BM (critical head goal with secondary bleed based goal):

    Head - bleed 1, CostlyClot, Behead 
    Chest - bleed 1, FailureClot, SeveredSpine
    Gut - bleed 1, SlowerClot, Impale,
    Arms - Haemophilia, bleed 3, Bleed 5
    Legs -  Prone, bleed 3, Bleed 5

    4 new affs (?)

    CostlyClot - costs more mana to clot
    FailureClot - clot has a chance to fail
    SlowerClot - clot cures less bleed
    SeveredSpine - super paralysis

    Possible bleed instakill here to pursue, might need to make it unique v. finalsting (?)

    Tbh, BM can probably also be moved to an aff-based route instead of bleed if people think that bleed is more thematically suited for a PB or something.

    --------------------------------------------------

    Ideally, I think I want about 4 unique affs per spec, to differentiate them a bit. Furthermore, I'd like to introduce secondary instakill avenues to pursue in the event that the first is untenable for a variety of reasons. Lastly, you're going to want something of a synergy that plays up to a kill goal and clearly has a point.

    Since I'm at it, here's my not-fully-fleshed-out goals for the other specs:

    BC - bashbrain, damage secondary
    PB - heartpierce (chest instakill?), limbs secondary (needs work, this is weak) 
    AL - severtorso (gut instakill?), execute secondary
    CV -sunder (heavy head + chest instakill?), skewer secondary

    Anyway, here it is. Numbers are debatable, the intent is what's important.
    Bleed is going away 100%, based on what I've seen in this thread, 1301 and the finalsting changes are irrelevant
  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf
    I agree with Rivius and his suggestions for afflictions and a warrior kill roadmap. I would be okay with that as the warrior overhaul.

    A few other miscellaneous thoughts. Relying on a disembowel/burst organs like affliction for a kill is not really viable as already mentioned.

    Also, care needs to be taken in not just duplicating the same afflictions on two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons. The two-handed weapons not only need to be able to up wounds faster, but the actual afflictions need to be stronger (or the kill state easier). Otherwise, one-handed weapons have a huge advantage in that they get double the afflictions once they've both reached the same wound-level.

    ~--------------**--------------~

    The original picture of Turnus is still viewable here, again by Feyrll.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Re: bleed - is it really? Admittedly I haven't kept up with that part of the discussion. What's the official plan for that?

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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Would appreciate the go or no go on the bleed change. I'm sitting on my hands right now with reports because SDs are pretty unaffected by the overhaul thus far. A warning about removing bleeding would give me some time to change things now rather than flailing for a couple months without it. 
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Yeah. So besides bleed, I'd like feedback on that spec, is that something more in people's liking or am I completely missing the point.
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  • I think your suggested list(s) of afflictions is cool. It's probably more of what Estarra had in mind than what I've been able to post about, too. Hopefully it is of help to Estarra.

  • Is rebounding going away? Good riddance if so.

    Getting rid of BurstOrgans would be nice. It's very rarely useful, and probably can just be cut.

    Shuyin's list seems pretty workable, though I like the idea of having the head be the primary kill method for all specs. This keeps things simpler from a defender's pov, but also keeps Warriors synergizing in a group. I'm not really opposed to having each spec be different, though.

    I like the way bleeding works currently, and echo that it would require a lot of changes to a lot of guilds to rework it.


  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    Estarra said that if bleeding wasn't reworked as a new version of wounding, she would completely remove it.

  • edited April 2015
    I'm tabling the bleeding discussion until we decide on the warrior mechanic.

    I'm still having trouble trouble seeing what the skillsets will look like. I've created a Warrior Spec Google Worksheet that anyone can edit with tabs for each of the specs. I'm curious if anyone wants to use the Kaimanahi/Shuyin ideas to fill out the skills that will be replaced. Add suggestions to a separate column with your name as the column header (resize for easy reading). Obviously, we can't replace all of the skills that would be lost (though it'd be nice if we could!) but definitely we should aim to replace a majority (over half of those removed).

    EDIT: To be clear, I'm having trouble seeing how the skillsets would look without them being extremely repetitive with each other.
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  • edited April 2015
    BTW, re-looking at Shuyin's post, it appears he's adding new afflictions. I'd rather not do that. My read of Kaimanahi's proposal was 5 physical afflictions (I'd prefer 10-5 cut/5 blunt) with 3 levels which are tied to wounds. The hit effects (i.e., individual skills) would be either immediate (bleed, extra damage, stun) or an existing affliction (vomiting, etc.)--in other words, not new afflictions.
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    I'm willing to do it after sushi tonight. More feedback on my general idea is great though, thanks
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  • KaimanahiKaimanahi The One True Queen
    Okay, can we get a sheet for Knighthood too?
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  • Added Knighthood.
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  • edited April 2015
    Posted long post, this is no longer relevant.
  • Daganev said:

    I'm in the middle of writing what all the specs would look like.  I'm trying to replace the skills almost 1 for 1, but I noticed that Cavalier has a lot more skills than Bonecrusher or Blademaster, so I'm also trying to make the skill list more compareable between the specs.  Is it ok if I post it stright and not in the google doc?

    Sure but note Cavalier has several (necessary) mount-related skills which is why it is longer than the other skillsets. I don't mind that it is longer because of that.
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Estarra said:

    BTW, re-looking at Shuyin's post, it appears he's adding new afflictions. I'd rather not do that. My read of Kaimanahi's proposal was 5 physical afflictions (I'd prefer 10-5 cut/5 blunt) with 3 levels which are tied to wounds. The hit effects (i.e., individual skills) would be either immediate (bleed, extra damage, stun) or an existing affliction (vomiting, etc.)--in other words, not new afflictions.

    When you mean new afflictions, are you willing to retool existing affs to expand on what they do or are they going in as is.

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  • Shuyin said:

    Estarra said:

    BTW, re-looking at Shuyin's post, it appears he's adding new afflictions. I'd rather not do that. My read of Kaimanahi's proposal was 5 physical afflictions (I'd prefer 10-5 cut/5 blunt) with 3 levels which are tied to wounds. The hit effects (i.e., individual skills) would be either immediate (bleed, extra damage, stun) or an existing affliction (vomiting, etc.)--in other words, not new afflictions.

    When you mean new afflictions, are you willing to retool existing affs to expand on what they do or are they going in as is.

    Maybe. I would need to see specifics.
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  • Hope this makes sense:

    There are 5 blunt ailments and 5 cutting ailments, corresponding to each body part.  The ailments each have 3 levels which are cumulative, and based on the wound level of the limb.  If it says that a cure has a delay, it means there is a delay before the Wound level on the limb is reduced, and that level's ailment is cured.    Here is a table of the 5 cutting and blunt ailments.  These are explained in the "Ailment Side Effects" table at the bottom of the page.


    Blunt External Ailments (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
    Head - Contusion, CollapsedThroat, FracturedSkull
    Chest - Contusion, FractureChest, CollapsedLung
    Gut - Contusion, Vomiting, BurstOrgans
    Arms - Contusion, BrokenArm, DisabledLimb
    Legs - Contusion, BrokenLeg, DisabledLimb

    Cutting External Ailments (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
    Head - Lacerated, FurrowBrow, Scalped
    Chest - Lacerated, PiercedLung, SeveredSpine
    Gut - Lacerated, OpenGut, Disembowel
    Arms - Lacerated, DamagedNerve, SeveredNerve
    Legs -  Lacerated, DamagedNerve, PinLeg

    In addition to these physical ailments that are dependant on wound level.  Each Specialisation is also able to create a 1 off effect when reaching the wound level, or hitting a limb at a specific wound level.  These are effects that are either not cured by a Salve, or are negated only by time, or some other action.

    Below is a summary of each specialisation, its kill method, and a list of the skills in the specialisation.

    Pureblade:
      Kill Conditions:
        Behead : Crit wounds on head
        Disembowel: Time delay death on gut
        Decapitate: Time delay death no matter what.
        Damage

    Pureblade Effects (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
    Head - shatter, clumsiness, -
    Chest - sensitivity, - , -
    Gut - burst, dysentery, -
    Arms - reckless, haemophilia, -
    Legs -  disrupt, slicethigh, -


    SkillList: Greatsword, Lacerations ,Maneuvers, PiercedLung, OpenGut, Clumsiness(slice ear), Cleave, FurrowBrow, Disrupt, SliceThigh , shatter , sensitivity , Haemophilia, Dysentery, DamagedNerve, Assault, Furrow, PinLeg, SeveredNerve, HeftySword, Reckless, burst, Amputate, Disembowel, Behead, Decapitate


    Axelord:
     Kill Conditions:
    Behead: Crit on head
    Execute: Heavy wounds on (head, chest, gut) + crit on one of them
    Damage

    Axelord Effects (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
    Head - Ringing, Shatter, Stupidity
    Chest - Sensitivity, Winded, -
    Gut - Paralysis, Winded, Dysentery
    Arms - Haemophilia, -, Amputate
    Legs -  Knockdown , SliceThigh, Amputate

    SkillList: Greataxe, Lacerated, Maneuvers, FurrowBrow, Contusions, BrokenLimb, PiercedLung, Ringing, Cleave, Sensitivity, OpenGut, Haemophilia (rusty axe), Shatter, DisabledLimb, Knockdown, Paralysis, SliceThigh, Sweep, Chop, Dysentery (rusty axe) , Winded, Scalped, SeveredSpine, HeftyAxe, SeveredSpine, Amputate, Behead, Execute 

    Cavalier:
      Kill Conditions:
        Bashbrain: Crit wounds on head
        Skewer: Crit on Chest+Gut + SeveredSpin + ChestWound
        Damage

      Cavalier Effects (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
    Head -   Disloyalty, -, -
    Chest -  sensitivity, -, -
    Gut -    -, Winded, -
    Arms -   -, Clumsiness, -
    Legs -   Knockdown, Knockdown, -

    SkillList: Polearms, Lacerations, Steed, Maneuvers, Tender, FurrowBrow, Obstruction, Disloyalty, OpenGut, Muster, Cleave, contusions, BrokenLimb, Guard, PiercedLung, Hook, Winded, FractureChest, SteedCharge, Warcry, Knockdown, Sunder, Scalp, Joust, Sensitivity , DisableLimb, FarGuard, DamageNerve,  Heft, Impale, FractureSkull, Recovery, Clumsiness, PinCharge, SeverSpine, BashBrain, Skewer


    BladeMaster
     Kill Conditions:
    Behead: Crit on Head
    Disembowel: Time delay death on gut
    Damage

    BladeMaster Effects (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
    Head - clumsiness, Recklessness, stupidity
    Chest - vomiting, Haemophilia, sickening
    Gut - Dysentery, Burst, paralysis
    Arms - Disrupted, Ringing, sensitivity
    Legs -  SliceThigh, PinLeg, 

    SkillList: Blademastery, Lacerations, Maneuvers, FurrowBrow, DamagedNerve, PiercedLung, vomiting,  OpenGut, Clumsiness (sliced ear), SliceThigh, Dysentery (septicwound), Scalp, PinLeg, Burst, SeveredNerve, Sickening,  Ringing (funny bone), SeveredSpine, sensitivity, Lunge, Haemophilia, Stupidity,  Recklessness, Impale, Disrupted,  Coule, paralysis ,  Disembowel, Behead, Haymaker 


    BoneCrusher: - 
      Kill Conditions:
        Bashbrain: Crit on head
        BurstOrgans: Time delay death on gut
        Damage

     BoneCrusher Effects (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
    Head - disloyalty, reckless, stupidity
    Chest - Sensitivity, Ringing, Shatter
    Gut - Vomiting, Wind, Burst
    Arms - Clumsiness, slappKnuckles, ?
    Legs -  Knockdown, Knockdown, ?

    SkillList: Bonecrush, Disloyalty (broken face), Maneuvers, BrokenArm, Wind, Slapknuckle, Ringing, Contusions,  FractureChest, FractureSkull, Knockdown, CollapsedThroat, DisableLimb, BrokenLeg, ShieldSmash, Sensitivity,  CollapsedLung, Vomiting, Crush, Shatter, Clumsiness, Reckless, Riposte, Stupidity, Burst, BurstOrgans, Bashbrain, Pulp


    Explanation of Ailments, and Effects.

    Ailment Side Effects  (Curable with new salve/reducing Wound state)

      Lacerated - Cutting damage defence debuff (takes more damage from cutting sources)  -- Adds together. Basically something to help make damage kills possible. (Instant cure)
      DamagedNerve: If legs, sprawls and prevents standing. If arms, forces unwield and prevents refilling pipes. (delayed 4s cure)
      SeveredNerve- Can't use are, bit both arms severed, can't cure. (delayed 4s cure)
      OpenGut: Causes damage and sprawl every 3s if uncured. (instant cure)
      FurrowBrow - blinded, and periodic blackout every 3s if uncured (instant cure)
      Scalped - Stupidity + confusion  + trophy
      SeveredSpine: Prevents most actions like paralysis. (delayed 4s cure)
      Disembowel:  Time delay to death (delayed 4s cure)
      PiercedLung: Can't smoke  + periodic asphyxiation damage.
      Contusion -  Blunt Damage Defence Debuff  (take more damage from blunt sources) - Adds together. Basically something to help make damage kills possible. (Instant cure)
      CollapsedThroat: Prevents drinking lucidity slush. (instant cure)
      FracturedSkull: Periodic blackout and prevents use of focus skills. (delayed 4s cure)
      FractureChest:  Periodic stun + damage (delayed 4s cure)
      BurstOrgans:  Time delay to death (delayed 4s cure)
      CollapsedLung:  Can't smoke (instant cure)
      BrokenArm: Can't hold items or use arm. (instant cure)
      BrokenLeg: Sprawled, can't stand. (instant cure)
      DisabledLimb: Prevents many actions that require the limb, such as standing, movement, and tumbling. When cured, the new limb is broken. If both arms are disabled, you cannot cure. (delayed 4s cure)


    Effects (Not cured by cure system)
      KnockDown - (Sprawled + balance loss)
      SliceThigh - stop tumble or other delayed movement.
      Ringing - lose balance (1s)
      Shatter - blackout (1s)
      Amputate - DisabledLimb + trophy
      Winded - stun (1s)
      Pinned - Writhe to escape, or Rend for burst damage.
      Disrupted - Lose stance / parry
      Burst - Extra Damage burst.

    Secondary Effects (Pre-existing Ailments cured by other methods)

       Vomiting, Sickening , Clumsiness: , Paralysis, Sensitivity, Disloyalty, Recklessness, Stupidity, Haemophilia, Dysentery

    I tried to keep everything as close to the current specialisation as possible, taking into things mentioned in this forum.  I also removed any references to bleeding, and instead replaced those with "increased damage"

    I hope my idea about reducing DMP with the lowlevel contusions and lacerations make sense...
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    I think Estarra wanted 10 cut and 10 blunt max.
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    P.S. I can't seem to edit the doc. Can someone else try.
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  • I think I locked the first couple of columns so those don't change. You can edit other columns though (I hope).
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  • Seems to be working for me.
  • @Shuyin what do you mean? I wrote up  5 blunt and 5 cutting. with 3 levels each, which has a total of 18 curable afflictions via the salve.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    edited April 2015
    Got it. I am a noob.

    There seems to be a disconnect in our interpretation. Let me re-read
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    edited April 2015
    Ok I see it now.

    So there seems to be 2 distinct approaches to this:

    1. Should externals be split into 10 blunt and 10 cut per Daganev

    Or

    2. Should externals be shared like with my idea. Then we'd have 9 new and 11 more to split amongst the 5 specs, as an example.

    Basically 1 differentiates the specs at the external level by virtue of damage type while 2 differentiates at the wound level.

    The first solution is simpler but the second makes the specs more diverse.

    Any thoughts?
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  • My understanding:

    There should be 5 cut and 5 blunt physical affliction ailments (one for each body part) which would be tied to wounds. But there can be 3 tiered effects for each. These wound effects would be permanent so long as the wound level exists. Ice would cure the wounds down (and therefore remove the effects).

    This would be separate from the specific skills in each spec that would give bleed, vomit, extra damage, etc.
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  • Daganev said:

    In addition to these physical ailments that are dependant on wound level.  Each Specialisation is also able to create a 1 off effect when reaching the wound level, or hitting a limb at a specific wound level.  These are effects that are either not cured by a Salve, or are negated only by time, or some other action.


    Below is a summary of each specialisation, its kill method, and a list of the skills in the specialisation.

    I would really like to see this in the spreadsheet. It would be much easier to compare with what exists and what anyone else would put down. (Also, Roark would kill me if I sent him a design doc like this. He would want a list of all skills in order they should go in--including skills that won't change.)
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Estarra said:

    My understanding:

    There should be 5 cut and 5 blunt physical affliction ailments (one for each body part) which would be tied to wounds. But there can be 3 tiered effects for each. These wound effects would be permanent so long as the wound level exists. Ice would cure the wounds down (and therefore remove the effects).

    This would be separate from the specific skills in each spec that would give bleed, vomit, extra damage, etc.

    This interpretation seems to be different from how Kelly proposed it. Should we proceed under this assumption instead of hers?

    Still doable, will need more retooling
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    How will that work for non-wounding class physical attacks?
  • edited April 2015
    Estarra said:

    Daganev said:

    In addition to these physical ailments that are dependant on wound level.  Each Specialisation is also able to create a 1 off effect when reaching the wound level, or hitting a limb at a specific wound level.  These are effects that are either not cured by a Salve, or are negated only by time, or some other action.


    Below is a summary of each specialisation, its kill method, and a list of the skills in the specialisation.

    I would really like to see this in the spreadsheet. It would be much easier to compare with what exists and what anyone else would put down. (Also, Roark would kill me if I sent him a design doc like this. He would want a list of all skills in order they should go in--including skills that won't change.)
    Ok, I will try to do that. I had written most of it before the Google doc was up. 

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