Race Stats and H/M/E Overhaul

edited April 2015 in Combat Overhaul
Check out the proposal we are looking at for overhauling race stats as well as health/mana/ego stats. Comments welcome!

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Comments

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    (Envoys): Marcella of the Ur'Guard says, "But artifacts for stats. Hnnm. Also, I'd be concerned about some classes being more single-attribute dependant than others."

    (Envoys): Marcella of the Ur'Guard says, "For example, an ur'Guard who has mind/body because they wanted to spec necro/warriorness would be at a disadvantage compared to a Nihilist if, say, the Nihilist's Nihilism and Necro were both determined by Mind."
  • I don't like the idea of stats affecting balance/equilibrium. I think it's better for balance if that was static.

    I'm assuming based on the Prismatic Lucidian stats that Harmonics would be linked to Mind rather than Spirit as Celestialism is. Also, if Celestialism is linked to Spirit, than Imperial Merian seems a bit low on Spirit.

    Assuming I'm understanding correctly, it seems that stats only affect offense, so if you're min/maxing, you pick the race that's the highest in your primary skill and no other thought needed. Glass cannon races are gone, as well as tanky races and balanced races.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    I agree with the above statements. It's going to be a nightmare to balance speed bonuses/maluses. Not only will it be by race, we'll have to balance around each individiual skill. Instead of TWO flavors of bonus/malus, there will be FIVE flavours to balance around. 
  • Shedrin said:

    I'm assuming based on the Prismatic Lucidian stats that Harmonics would be linked to Mind rather than Spirit as Celestialism is. Also, if Celestialism is linked to Spirit, than Imperial Merian seems a bit low on Spirit.

    Ok apparently Harmonics would be Spirit as well. In which case, both Lucidian and Merian don't make much sense for their guardian classes.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    edited April 2015
    Guys, guys, guys.  This is cool.  This is totally cool.  Tae'dae just became physical master race.

    In all seriousness though, seems to be missing brewmeister dwarf.
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  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark Australia
    My one request is for Irontongue Viscanti to not be the red-headed stepchild of specced bard races. Please please please oh god please. (going from that list, normal trill would have better affinity to artistry/music than an irontongue viscanti :-< )



  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I don't get why bards are such terrible influencers under this (very low empathy, in some cases even taking a penalty when compared to other versions of the specialization within the same race).
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  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk
    Or why there are no good City Spirit races, yet, Mage primary, Guardian Primary, Guardian's tertiary skills are all Spirit.
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • Please avoid pay to win (buying stats).

    Avoid making stats effect speed, or you are increasing damage + speed (double dip on DPS).  I notice things like faeling goes from 5 to -12- when specced, what the Nil. That is far too high a buff when you over double a stat. 

    Overall the new system seems a lot more complicated, even if we left racial eq/bal so we could mess with things more readily, we still have a whole new system and I am not sure the motivation here.

    Why do we need new dex/con/int/cha and such? What is the benefit moving from 6 current stats to 6 new stats (size isn't listed in new system, and isn't really useful in old anyway)?  What is this change aimed at simplifying? It looks like it will mean a lot of racial reporting and problems, I am not sure how it will simplify things at all.
  • If I did my charting correct, looking at main bashing attacks, INT-spec races for cities in the Overhaul, are speccing Mind instead of where their skills are rooted, which is Spirit. This is an issue. Also an issue, for communes, their INT-spec races are speccing Spirit which helps the BT/HS, but the MD/SD people have their bashing rooted in Mind.


    This is the one issue I've picked out at first glance, but I need to go cook. Will respond with more thoughts in a bit.

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    It seems to me that Totems (Night, Crow, Moon, Stag) should be Mysticism, and Elementalism should be Arcana, shouldn't it?

    It seems like this would help a lot, since the Commune-orgs were designed to be more spiritual and the city-folk more mind-oriented.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Then again, that would make Mages all mind-based (if they take psionics), wouldn't it? 
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    Assuming the bal/eq change stays, this means tae'dae are faster than aslarans.  o.O

    And assuming that the new stats effect influencing as well, tae'dae just become the best influencers too.  <3 Estarra
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  • People are guessing brewmeister dwarf will swap body/artistry from vanilla dwarves.

    I'd like to echo concerns about balance and equilibrium being affected by stats. There are some considerations I am very concerned about in this regard:

    First of all, the proposed system is actually very similar to the current bonuses provided by the current master-races. For example, the lowest stat point in the table is 5. The highest is 15. A difference of 10 statpoints mean a 0.5s increase in speed, basically aslaran versus non-aslaran (or mugwump versus non-mugwump) speeds.

    Secondly, the presence of class (or archetype) based stat-boosting abilities will muddy the waters for balancing. For example, bardicpresence, or warrior flex. 

    They create a similar faced by currently existing aslaran/mugwump imbalances, should we balance around neutral balance, or around these +bal/eq speeds? If we do the former, we risk creating outliers, and having to individually envoy every imbalance that crops up with those races. If we balance around the latter, then we risk crippling everyone who is not of that race. In the new system, the question becomes, should we balance around 15-pointers, or around the bardicpresenced version, for bards? If we should do the former, then we risk making bardicpresenced bards too strong, and since bardicpresence is available to all bards, we should therefore balance around bardicpresence... and then in comes other stat boosting abilities or buffs. Like demistats (will those still exist? We don't know yet) or stat-arties (not really a good idea if bal/eq bonuses are tied to stats). Should we balance speeds around the highest possible? Where will that leave the non demis, the non arties, then non argleblaster-users?

    If we don't balance around the highest... well, then, we'll go back to the current system of playing whack-a-mole with every imbalance that crops up due to outliers.

    If there's the opportunity to remove such a situation, or at the very least, lessen its impact, we should, is my opinion. If we remove all bal/eq bonuses and maluses, we will create a system where we still have to play whack-a-mole to hammer skillsets and abilities that have been warped by our current aslaran/mugwump bandaids back into shape, but at the very least, we won't have to worry about outliers creating (or discovering) new exploits or imbalances. As an envoy, it becomes easier to see when an ability is too fast or too slow due to balance issues, and not due to outlier issues. We can now say, cosmicfire is too strong, it is too fast, because its dps is 3000 to staffcast's 1000. And we don't need to say, "Oh, that's because 3000 dps is only available to those with <insert stat number here>-points in empathy, it's actually just fine at 1000dps when at the normal 15-point stat."

    My example is a hyperbole, of course, but with the proposed numbers as they are, the effects are, as I already mentioned, very similar to current aslaran/mugwump bonuses.

    Please let's not tie bal/eq to stats. Let's think of other, fun elements to tie to stats instead. I'm sure between all of us in the forums, we can come up with something.

  • Note the bal/eq is very minor. That said, we're happy to look at other effects the skillpool root stats could have if you have suggestions. (We'd rather it not involve rewriting every skill.)

    So let's hear your alternate suggestions!

    (Don't get caught up on stat numbers in the design doc. Those are all very rough and preliminary.)
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    So just to make sure I get this, the more lessons you put into your skillsets, the more your stats in that skillset go up?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Wasn't there at one point a proposal to make stats fully or mostly dependant on guild/archetype. I like that idea a lot more.
  • TremulaTremula Banished Quasiroyal
    Am I missing something or were Brewmeister Dwarves not included? Is the body statistic moved to artistry?
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • Shedrin said:

    Wasn't there at one point a proposal to make stats fully or mostly dependant on guild/archetype. I like that idea a lot more.

    I don't recall that proposal. What's the idea behind it? How would it integrate to races?
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  • Lerad said:

    Please let's not tie bal/eq to stats. Let's think of other, fun elements to tie to stats instead. I'm sure between all of us in the forums, we can come up with something.

    I'm all ears. I haven't really heard of any alternatives (yet).

    BTW, please don't get distracted about brewmeister dwarves, etc. We want to nail down the mechanics on the macro level before worrying about the micro.
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  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Ugh, I echo the comments of "here's the system and how it works--now pay us money to game it!"
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Estarra said:


    Shedrin said:

    Wasn't there at one point a proposal to make stats fully or mostly dependant on guild/archetype. I like that idea a lot more.

    I don't recall that proposal. What's the idea behind it? How would it integrate to races?
    Sort of like humans do right now at 50+? I kind of like that concept a lot more than having certain races be 'good' for certain orgs/guilds, even when considering the existence of racial hats.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • Steingrim said:

    Estarra said:


    BTW, please don't get distracted about brewmeister dwarves, etc. We want to nail down the mechanics on the macro level before worrying about the micro.

    Oh, great. Another joke about my race's height.
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  • Everiine said:

    Ugh, I echo the comments of "here's the system and how it works--now pay us money to game it!"

    I don't think we've ever hidden the fact that we're a commercial game and need to monetize to stay in existence, so not sure why you'd begrudge us trying to stay afloat.
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  • Elanorwen said:

    Estarra said:


    Shedrin said:

    Wasn't there at one point a proposal to make stats fully or mostly dependant on guild/archetype. I like that idea a lot more.

    I don't recall that proposal. What's the idea behind it? How would it integrate to races?
    Sort of like humans do right now at 50+? I kind of like that concept a lot more than having certain races be 'good' for certain orgs/guilds, even when considering the existence of racial hats.
    Well stats have to mean something so there'd always be a base unless they're all the same in which case there'd become irrelevant.

    We could possibly just do away with stats altogether and just have each race have a couple of advantages/disadvantages.
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  • Estarra said:


    Shedrin said:

    Wasn't there at one point a proposal to make stats fully or mostly dependant on guild/archetype. I like that idea a lot more.

    I don't recall that proposal. What's the idea behind it? How would it integrate to races?
    I might be imagining things.

    Anyway, my ideal is that races would be purely rp, and guilds/archetypes would determine stats.

    If not, I'd like to maintain the ability to choose between damage and tankiness in a race. I think the existing stat system does that fairly well. I'm not sure how the pool-related stats would work with that.
  • edited April 2015
    I'm honestly very split here. At its core, I kinda like the system, but it seems to me as if you get additional base health based on how many lessons you spend in a skill, which... well, quite frankly, I don't like. I don't have the time, but how would things look if you set a HME bonus to each skill (so combat would get 2/5 health for instance), and then just added them all in the end?
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  • Everiine said:

    Ugh, I echo the comments of "here's the system and how it works--now pay us money to game it!"

    I don't think we've ever hidden the fact that we're a commercial game and need to monetize to stay in existence, so not sure why you'd begrudge us trying to stay afloat.

    It's not that you ask for money. I'm sure everybody understands that point. It's how and for what you ask money for, sometimes.

    This is just my opinion, and maybe not worth much.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
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