InternalBleeding - Periodic increase in bleeding level
DamagedOrgans - Increased balance times for ice/dust/slush/steam (e.g. damaged kidneys/liver can't process the medicine).
I'd still like to have a lot of the effects for the afflictions scale with wound level, so we can keep them general enough to use outside knighthood when needed but still allow knights/monks to get stronger affliction effects, but I need to pass that by Estarra still so for now the effects are static.
EDIT: The aff that'd be given in general limb break cases outside knighthood/kata would be the weakened limb version - the DMP malus was added to make it useful in the general case, instead of it only being a stance/parry negation.
I think I'm going to lean towards making all ice cures delayed so that we can get nice stacks going with warriors.
The problem with this will be broken legs / arms, but after discussion with envoys, removing the no-stand malus of broken legs and keeping it for mutilated limbs solves the issue. I do think that having broken legs give DMP reduction (your legs are shaky, can't brace yourself) and having broken arms give buff reduction (your arms are too hurt to apply full force) in exchange for removing no-stand is a fair trade.
To clarify though, is the removal of parry/stance for the broken affs going to work on only 1 limb broken or will it need 2? Cause 1 limb broken strikes me as too much, but that's just a "first blush" sort of deal to me.
Otherwise, this initial list seems fine to me. I would have preferred keeping severedspine as a paralysis cured by ice in order to add more hindering, though. That way, you can stack this plus paralysis into order to secure a lockdown once you've built up enough momentum. I understand the hesitation when it comes to this sort of thing though.
I also think increasing the severity of effects along with wound level would be an interesting mechanic, all things said.
Whoa whoa, I do not think that's fair a fair exchange for non-wounding classes who deal lots of broken limbs. 3% extra damage is not at all equitable to the former effects of those afflictions. The main push of those afflictions (stance/parry) will do nothing for majority of classes that use them, really gating off an entire quarter of the game's curing balances to anyone but warriors and monks.
EDIT: Unless those cases are changed to deal mutilated leg, as it's the actual true replacement for broken limbs. Leave the poison at 'weakened', change things like bone trance, treebane, knobbled branches, stagstomp, treehug, hornedlily etc. to mutilated and go from there.
Changing those skills to mutilated invalidates the reason why it was changed to begin with.
If all ice cures are being delayed, the antistand effect of broken leg needs to be downgraded. It would definitely be too much for all these skills to potentially keep you prone for x seconds.
Though with that said, having two weakened legs should probably prone to further add value. It just won't keep you prone without additional work.
To clarify though, is the removal of parry/stance for the broken affs going to work on only 1 limb broken or will it need 2? Cause 1 limb broken strikes me as too much, but that's just a "first blush" sort of deal to me.
I was planning on having these basically just mimic cracked kneecap/elbow, but looking at the code for cracked kneecap it only looks like it stops you from using the STANCE command, and doesn't affect the efficacy of an existing stance. With that in mind, weakened leg would probably be a -50% effectiveness and inability to change stance with one leg, and clear stance entirely with two legs.
Regarding "gating off an entire quarter of the game's curing balances", there isn't any real reason that at least most of the physical afflictions can't be made available to other classes if it makes sense for them to be there. Collapsed lung, damaged throat, damaged organs, damaged skull are all pretty universally useful, for instance. Additionally, while it's likely we'll do a pretty blanket replacement of vanilla broken limbs with weakened limbs, I'm also very willing to go through with the envoys and find places where other afflictions would fit better.
Would having the weakened limb affliction gain the ability-blocking effect of current broken limbs work to alleviate any issues? Not having it block standing, movement, or curing like you get with amputate, but just function as a basic method to hinder an enemy's offense? Or would that still be too much with the delayed ice cure?
Yes, that would help a lot, though it'd still be kind of problematic.
I'm looking at the skills I'm envoy for, and a big chunk of them are based around trying to keep the victim proned with broken limbs. Going through and just replacing all broken limbs with a 1/4 (3% or less) damage change utterly guts these skills. For instance, Shamanism's hot strategy is based around trying to land sap (trees only), sprawl the victim with the delayed prone on quake (ground only), a passive slickness tick, and then trying to keep their legs broken by spamming bone trance until you can get lucky stupidity ticks to pull ahead. Making bone trance deal mutilated limbs with no other change would be overwhelming... but the weakened leg aff is totally useless for that strategy, which (believe it or not) is already really timing intensive and difficult to pull off. Similarly, using sprawled (from double morphite) and broken legs is the core ecologist druid strategy, being unable to hinder standing up with weakened legs puts a big damper on that as well.
Why not make weakened legs work like pierced limbs, in addition to whatever other minor effect? Arms would then hinder attacking.
Sorry, it's hard for me to dig into trying to figure this proposal out because I don't know what the supporting mechanics are. Can you please explain the wounding numbers/system? How much wounding does each hit do? What are the thresholds for each wound level? How are they cured? How will armour affect wounding? What is the relation between bruise/bleed and wounding? Will you still be able to apply poisons to weapons? Are you keeping stance, parry, and rebounding?
Yes, that would help a lot, though it'd still be kind of problematic.
I'm looking at the skills I'm envoy for, and a big chunk of them are based around trying to keep the victim proned with broken limbs. Going through and just replacing all broken limbs with a 1/4 (3% or less) damage change utterly guts these skills. For instance, Shamanism's hot strategy is based around trying to land sap (trees only), sprawl the victim with the delayed prone on quake (ground only), a passive slickness tick, and then trying to keep their legs broken by spamming bone trance until you can get lucky stupidity ticks to pull ahead. Making bone trance deal mutilated limbs with no other change would be overwhelming... but the weakened leg aff is totally useless for that strategy, which (believe it or not) is already really timing intensive and difficult to pull off. Similarly, using sprawled (from double morphite) and broken legs is the core ecologist druid strategy, being unable to hinder standing up with weakened legs puts a big damper on that as well.
Why not make weakened legs work like pierced limbs, in addition to whatever other minor effect? Arms would then hinder attacking.
The problem with that is that ice-cures are all going to be delayed (ala regen cures, though we don't know how many seconds the delay is), which will make those strategies impossible to keep as status quo even if we give them the mutilated version (or let weakenedlegs prevent standing) because it would also require rebalancing in that regard as well. Stand-prevention with delayed-curing has always been the premium hinder strategy, and if we give it to casters, it would require at least some power outlay - for warriors, they are only accessible behind a wounds wall, which they have to work to get over.
Pierced legs also don't actually prevent standing - they have a chance to prone you when you stand up with a pierced leg, is all, if I remember correctly.
I'm not sure if letting weakened arms hinder attacking will be too strong or not, because we will probably need to see it in action to find out, but if weakened arms will be delayed cure, making them hinder attacking will hurt casters more than one-hander warriors or monks, I think, since so many caster attacks require two unhindered arms to cast. With weakenedarms behind a much lower wounds wall than mutilated, it would not be too difficult for a warrior to proc it, and repeatedly, on casters, and the delayed cure will just make things snowball from then on. This is just my prediction and theorycrafting, so it's possible I'm mistaken, but that's the major problem I see with giving stand prevention or attack hindering to the weakened limbs affs, and what motivated my original suggestion to remove those effects from those two affs.
I think it's a better idea to replace those abilities that depend on broken legs to keep the opponent prone with stuff more suitable to it than to change the affs. Druids (because of sap) being one of the biggest classes affected by the change is something I missed out, but which I agree with. However, if cleanse is going away eventually (that was the plan, right?), I think it will be a mistake to give those Druid abilities you mentioned a delayed, stand-prevention affliction effect - they will no longer help sap once the overhaul is done, and leave Druids with a very strong hinder for no reason. (EDIT: And besides, if those same abilities that you're now asking for stand-prevention to be added to the weakened affs for are eventually changed to support the new sap strategy... that will end up giving warriors and monks a low-wounds weakened limbs affliction that has stand prevention on a delayed cure... which will be hell for anyone fighting said warriors and monks. Yeah, thinking on this, I would say it really isn't a very good idea to upgrade the weakened limbs affs.) Nihilists may well be the most affected by this change because crucify and shrivel similarly should not be giving delayed-cure stand prevention hindering, but that affliction itself is a direct requirement to their insta. Which is something that will necessitate big changes with the proposed affliction list in this thread.
Sorry, it's hard for me to dig into trying to figure this proposal out because I don't know what the supporting mechanics are. Can you please explain the wounding numbers/system? How much wounding does each hit do? What are the thresholds for each wound level? How are they cured? How will armour affect wounding? What is the relation between bruise/bleed and wounding? Will you still be able to apply poisons to weapons? Are you keeping stance, parry, and rebounding?
I've been working on the assumption that it's using Shuyin's plan for woundings, but a confirmation by Estarra would be nice, for sure.
It's definitely supposed to be very similar to Shuyin's proposal for general mechanics. I'm not sure exactly what differences there are aside from the affliction table and anything changed in the skill lists, though.
Is the damage bonus only going to be 1/4? I was hoping killing with damage as a warrior was going to be more likely with arms and legs wounds allowing for more damage to be done.
That might work, yes, since casters don't do wounds. It's no longer as simple anymore, but if the admin side is willing to do it, I don't see why there's any reason to object to it from our side. In which case, giving the stand-prevention effect back to weakened legs will allow druids/nihilists to continue to use those afflictions as per now too.
Just a word of warning, since the weakened limbs afflictions do not require very high wounds (available at light wounds for some specs) it would mean warriors would gain a fairly noticeable buff if those afflictions retain their old block-attacks and stand-prevention effects. Of course, with only a 1s delay at light wounds, this concern may well be a negligible one - but still, something to keep in mind for post-overhaul balancing.
Right, that would help tremendously from my perspective. While a delayed cure poison limb break would be crazy, downgrading that to effectivly no benefit is too strong.
I was really looking forward to the bonus/malus effect, plus the removing of stancing/parrying. That was one of the most annoying things way back when, having people just parry head and making the kill condition very frustrating to pull off. Also, the idea of a damage kill as an alternative method to the kill condition, was something I was hoping for.
Could have them be ramped up effects at heavy or critical wounds... though technically those effects make more logical sense being at low wounds - to help build wounds in the first place... but well, that's an option to consider, at least.
Okay so I finally took the time to go over all of the specs from the latest version of warriors on the spreadsheet. Here is some feedback:
1. DamageSkull doesn't seem to be located within any of the specs. Is this intended? If not, then I suggest putting it back into BC to help hinder curing given the comparative lack of afflictions.
2. Bonecrusher doesn't have the MutilatedLeg affliction. With the recent decision to move all ice cures to a delay cure that scales up depending on wound level, I don't foresee this as a critical issue, but I figure I'd mention it. No suggestion here, just monitor it.
3. Bonecrusher Crushwindpipe doesn't have a wound/bodypart level in its section. I assume this is a typo and it should be heavy wounds targetted at head. Suggestion: fix typo.
4. What's going on with clot? Need admin input here. I don't mind changing a lot of the higher end wounds to extra bleed with Pureblades, but we need to figure out what's going on with clot. My suggestion: remove chervil, add a power modifier to clot that functions as an extra powerful version of it. EX: we can clot normally, but we can also CLOT HARD (??) for 1p per command to cure 3x (?) the amount of bleeding every time it's used.
5. Pureblades have SlitThroat (gives DamagedThroat) listed as light wounds targetted at head. Is this intended? I understand that light wounds will only have a short delay before it cured, but giving PB's access to immediate potential locking (especially in groups) makes me a bit wary. I don't think it's a huge deal yet though. Suggestion: think about it, move to heavy wounds if you agree.
6. Blademasters get CollapsedLung (prones on hasty message, etc) while Bonecrushers get DamagedOrgans (slower herb/steam/etc balance). These afflictions (in my opinion) have been reversed. If the goal of BM's is to build affs, wouldn't a critical wound that slows down cure balances be more valuable? With regards to BC's - if BC's are going to have "weaker" prone-upkeep moves, then it'd be valuable to give this class an affliction that makes it harder to get away from the BC. Suggestion: Give BM's damagedorgans and give BC's collapsedlung. If the effects don't make thematic sense, just rename them, though tbh, DamagedOrgans and CollapsedLungs sound fine.
Otherwise, all the specs look fine to me for the most part. I just want feedback on the suggestions above.
I think with this proposal, increased slush balance with wounding is a very good idea. Maybe capping out at 3 seconds with the highest wound state.
Just some random questions and thoughts:
o For Cavalier's skewer, why not give them crushedchest somewhere in their aff tree and require that as the aff instead of impale? I think that makes more sense thematically.
o Haymaker under this system still seems somewhat undesirable. How about converting it to a much lower power insta for blademasters? For example, a certain amount of heavy+ limbs = instakill? Or maybe keep it high power, but make it a certain % damage per body part wounded, scaling with wounds?
o Under this new system, given that we are now recoding physical classes altogether, I'd like skills like coule, riposte and so forth to now fire against monks as well if we can do that. That would increase the value of these skills a fair bit more. Otherwise, why not make them all like guard, so warriors have something passive like this against all classes? I've always felt like guard was a good, interesting skill that doesn't do much at low wounds, but rewards you with the more wounds you add. It's a good mechanic, and I've felt like all warriors could use it.
o I think clot should be kept for bleeding and restoration in discipline should be repurposed to be a similar skill for bruising.
Okay so I finally took the time to go over all of the specs from the latest version of warriors on the spreadsheet. Here is some feedback:
1. DamageSkull doesn't seem to be located within any of the specs. Is this intended? If not, then I suggest putting it back into BC to help hinder curing given the comparative lack of afflictions.
2. Bonecrusher doesn't have the MutilatedLeg affliction. With the recent decision to move all ice cures to a delay cure that scales up depending on wound level, I don't foresee this as a critical issue, but I figure I'd mention it. No suggestion here, just monitor it.
3. Bonecrusher Crushwindpipe doesn't have a wound/bodypart level in its section. I assume this is a typo and it should be heavy wounds targetted at head. Suggestion: fix typo.
4. What's going on with clot? Need admin input here. I don't mind changing a lot of the higher end wounds to extra bleed with Pureblades, but we need to figure out what's going on with clot. My suggestion: remove chervil, add a power modifier to clot that functions as an extra powerful version of it. EX: we can clot normally, but we can also CLOT HARD (??) for 1p per command to cure 3x (?) the amount of bleeding every time it's used.
5. Pureblades have SlitThroat (gives DamagedThroat) listed as light wounds targetted at head. Is this intended? I understand that light wounds will only have a short delay before it cured, but giving PB's access to immediate potential locking (especially in groups) makes me a bit wary. I don't think it's a huge deal yet though. Suggestion: think about it, move to heavy wounds if you agree.
6. Blademasters get CollapsedLung (prones on hasty message, etc) while Bonecrushers get DamagedOrgans (slower herb/steam/etc balance). These afflictions (in my opinion) have been reversed. If the goal of BM's is to build affs, wouldn't a critical wound that slows down cure balances be more valuable? With regards to BC's - if BC's are going to have "weaker" prone-upkeep moves, then it'd be valuable to give this class an affliction that makes it harder to get away from the BC. Suggestion: Give BM's damagedorgans and give BC's collapsedlung. If the effects don't make thematic sense, just rename them, though tbh, DamagedOrgans and CollapsedLungs sound fine.
Otherwise, all the specs look fine to me for the most part. I just want feedback on the suggestions above.
K, edited the spreadsheet per my comments above. Changed my mind on pb slit throat, might as well play it safe.
To start, we'll probably just leave clot as-is, and delete chervil. If it ends up being necessary, we can look into adding other clotting modifiers (such as the power modification you mentioned), but I'm wary of doing so since that would have effects on other classes that use bleeding for mana pressure.
Unsure. This is probably something I'll have a few options for when we release for arena testing. Will very likely be one of the following options:
1) Clot cures both clotting and bruising in equal parts.
1a) Clot cures clotting and bruising both in amounts equal to current clotting (so clotting cures double overall, split across bleed/bruise).
1b) Clot cures clotting and bruising both in amounts equal to half of current clotting (clotting cures same amount as now, split across bleed/bruise).
1c) Either 1a or 1b, but a person only has bleeding or only has bruising, the leftover curing from the other type will be healed in the present ailment (so clotting while bleeding without bruising is identical to how clotting works now, but its effect changes if the user is also bruised).
2) Keep clot as-is, add a new equivalent command for bruising (could be a completely new command, or just split clotting into CLOT <BLEEDING|BRUISING>).
2a) Include one of the choice 1 variations for plain CLOT, if we don't split it into new commands.
So far I've been trying to stay out of this thread because we put aside monk-things so we could just focus on warrior things for a second, but I feel like I need to ask a question since we're on clotting, which effects me.
How does Psychometabolism, specifically Bloodboil, work with Bleeding and Bruising? Is that an issue for envoys, or is it something to discuss now? If Bloodboil only effects bleeding, I'd prefer 2 over any of the 1 choices, As presumably I would encounter times where I'd clot bleeding away instead of bruising where Bloodboil would have just handled it, rendering the skill a lot less useful.
Unsure. This is probably something I'll have a few options for when we release for arena testing. Will very likely be one of the following options:
1) Clot cures both clotting and bruising in equal parts.
1a) Clot cures clotting and bruising both in amounts equal to current clotting (so clotting cures double overall, split across bleed/bruise).
1b) Clot cures clotting and bruising both in amounts equal to half of current clotting (clotting cures same amount as now, split across bleed/bruise).
1c) Either 1a or 1b, but a person only has bleeding or only has bruising, the leftover curing from the other type will be healed in the present ailment (so clotting while bleeding without bruising is identical to how clotting works now, but its effect changes if the user is also bruised).
2) Keep clot as-is, add a new equivalent command for bruising (could be a completely new command, or just split clotting into CLOT <BLEEDING|BRUISING>).
2a) Include one of the choice 1 variations for plain CLOT, if we don't split it into new commands.
I don't get any of this.
If brusing uses the clotting mechanic then you could use clotting to cure all brusing?
If you split the curing between clotting and brusing then that's two rather large bonuses given to classes who benefit from bleeding (reduced clotting and removal of chervil).
It won't reduce clotting, since, other than cavs, the warrior specs will all either do only bleeding or only bruising. Therefore, if they put in 1c as Shuyin suggested, then clotting will basically be identical to right now, for both bleeding and bruising.
Things will be different in team fights, of course, but the stackability of teams won't change either.
Comments
If all ice cures are being delayed, the antistand effect of broken leg needs to be downgraded. It would definitely be too much for all these skills to potentially keep you prone for x seconds.
Though with that said, having two weakened legs should probably prone to further add value. It just won't keep you prone without additional work.
I'm looking at the skills I'm envoy for, and a big chunk of them are based around trying to keep the victim proned with broken limbs. Going through and just replacing all broken limbs with a 1/4 (3% or less) damage change utterly guts these skills. For instance, Shamanism's hot strategy is based around trying to land sap (trees only), sprawl the victim with the delayed prone on quake (ground only), a passive slickness tick, and then trying to keep their legs broken by spamming bone trance until you can get lucky stupidity ticks to pull ahead. Making bone trance deal mutilated limbs with no other change would be overwhelming... but the weakened leg aff is totally useless for that strategy, which (believe it or not) is already really timing intensive and difficult to pull off. Similarly, using sprawled (from double morphite) and broken legs is the core ecologist druid strategy, being unable to hinder standing up with weakened legs puts a big damper on that as well.
Why not make weakened legs work like pierced limbs, in addition to whatever other minor effect? Arms would then hinder attacking.
The problem with that is that ice-cures are all going to be delayed (ala regen cures, though we don't know how many seconds the delay is), which will make those strategies impossible to keep as status quo even if we give them the mutilated version (or let weakenedlegs prevent standing) because it would also require rebalancing in that regard as well. Stand-prevention with delayed-curing has always been the premium hinder strategy, and if we give it to casters, it would require at least some power outlay - for warriors, they are only accessible behind a wounds wall, which they have to work to get over.
Pierced legs also don't actually prevent standing - they have a chance to prone you when you stand up with a pierced leg, is all, if I remember correctly.
I'm not sure if letting weakened arms hinder attacking will be too strong or not, because we will probably need to see it in action to find out, but if weakened arms will be delayed cure, making them hinder attacking will hurt casters more than one-hander warriors or monks, I think, since so many caster attacks require two unhindered arms to cast. With weakenedarms behind a much lower wounds wall than mutilated, it would not be too difficult for a warrior to proc it, and repeatedly, on casters, and the delayed cure will just make things snowball from then on. This is just my prediction and theorycrafting, so it's possible I'm mistaken, but that's the major problem I see with giving stand prevention or attack hindering to the weakened limbs affs, and what motivated my original suggestion to remove those effects from those two affs.
I think it's a better idea to replace those abilities that depend on broken legs to keep the opponent prone with stuff more suitable to it than to change the affs. Druids (because of sap) being one of the biggest classes affected by the change is something I missed out, but which I agree with. However, if cleanse is going away eventually (that was the plan, right?), I think it will be a mistake to give those Druid abilities you mentioned a delayed, stand-prevention affliction effect - they will no longer help sap once the overhaul is done, and leave Druids with a very strong hinder for no reason. (EDIT: And besides, if those same abilities that you're now asking for stand-prevention to be added to the weakened affs for are eventually changed to support the new sap strategy... that will end up giving warriors and monks a low-wounds weakened limbs affliction that has stand prevention on a delayed cure... which will be hell for anyone fighting said warriors and monks. Yeah, thinking on this, I would say it really isn't a very good idea to upgrade the weakened limbs affs.) Nihilists may well be the most affected by this change because crucify and shrivel similarly should not be giving delayed-cure stand prevention hindering, but that affliction itself is a direct requirement to their insta. Which is something that will necessitate big changes with the proposed affliction list in this thread.
I've been working on the assumption that it's using Shuyin's plan for woundings, but a confirmation by Estarra would be nice, for sure.
Below light wounds = immediate
light wounds = 1 second
heavy wounds = 2 seconds
critical wounds = 3 seconds
(Or something like that--numbers can be tweaked.)
Just a word of warning, since the weakened limbs afflictions do not require very high wounds (available at light wounds for some specs) it would mean warriors would gain a fairly noticeable buff if those afflictions retain their old block-attacks and stand-prevention effects. Of course, with only a 1s delay at light wounds, this concern may well be a negligible one - but still, something to keep in mind for post-overhaul balancing.
I agree with Lerad that if this went in, we wouldn't need debuffs for weakened limbs anymore and can go back to the previous broken limb proposal.
Still need a plan re clot.
Changes in red btw
If brusing uses the clotting mechanic then you could use clotting to cure all brusing?
If you split the curing between clotting and brusing then that's two rather large bonuses given to classes who benefit from bleeding (reduced clotting and removal of chervil).
Things will be different in team fights, of course, but the stackability of teams won't change either.